crossing double white lines

bigdom86 · Traffic Copper Joined: 17 Jul 2015 Karma :

hypothetically if cars are at a stand-still and you have crossed double-white lines to overtake them at 5-10mph, you are then stopped by a couple of traffic coppers in central london and told you will receive a letter in the post in 10 days for £100 fine and 3 points which you can plead guilty or not-guilty too because you didn't give the magic "i am sorry officer", how likely is it you will receive this letter?

also if you get points on a CBT does this go on your car licence too or does it cancel once you have passed DAS?

cheers Thumbs Up

weasley · World Chat Champion Joined: 16 Oct 2010 Karma :

Your licence is your licence - the CBT is not a licence, it is a certificate of competence.

If you get points then they go on the only licence you have (ie, your driving licence) and stay there for however long is associated with the offence committed.

You will also have to inform your insurers of this change to your circumstances and declare them when obtaining a new policy (car, bike or whatever).
____________________
~~Yamaha XJ600 | Yamaha YZF600R Thundercat | KTM 990 SMT~~ | BMW F900XR TE

stinkwheel · Bovine Proctologist Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :

If they said they'll send it, they probably will.

HOWEVER.

What you sorry for? If your account of the incident is accurate, you haven't broken any laws.

There is an exemption in regulations allowing you to cross a solid white line to pass STATIONARY traffic.

It WAS stationary right?

c_dug · Super Spammer Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Karma :

I take it this is Lower Thames Street we're talking about? I've been wondering how long it would take them to tug somebody there for that!

Interesting what Stinkwheel has posted, I wasn't aware of the exemption, I'll have to bear that in mind, I reckon this will be an ongoing theme until the cycle highway works are complete.
____________________
I am a bellend, I am a man of constant sorrow, I am a gummy bear, I am a rock.

Rockhopper · Trackday Trickster Joined: 18 Jun 2006 Karma :

It says "a stationary vehicle", not a whole queue of vehicles.

rubyhorse2 · Traffic Copper Joined: 03 Mar 2015 Karma :

the lack of an 's' wont matter if you ask me as other wording in that document does not include the plural.

It will really be an issue of what all the traffic stationary or not.

ADSrox0r · World Chat Champion Joined: 23 Oct 2012 Karma :

I would read that as the pertinent points being "safe" and "necessary" to pass. Double whites are usually there for a reason and crossing them often implies a danger from oncoming traffic that may be obstructed from immediate line of sight. It'd be the "necessary" part I think that would be argued if you contested, what dictated that it was 'necessary' for you to cross the lines other than to 'make progress'?
____________________
Current bikes: '08 VFR 800 VTEC(yo) , '07 ZZR1400 Winter hack: '95 Aprilia 650 Pegaso Currently lusting after: RC30

Rogerborg · nimbA Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :

The "stationary" issue has come up a few times.

I believe that T.C. opined that it's been held to mean waiting - i.e. parked - traffic, rather than traffic that's simply unable to proceed.

I notice that the Highway Code have carefully not clarified it:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/general-rules-techniques-and-advice-for-all-drivers-and-riders-103-to-158

Google definition (but not the OED, which I don't have to hand):
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define%3Astationary

"Not moving or not intended to be moved"

Nicely ambiguous.

Case law will rule.

Shall we crowdsource the research?

https://www.bailii.org/

Plenty of cases with combinations of "overtaking solid white line stationary" - most of them involving motorcycles - but I can't see anything that clears it up.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

bigdom86 · Traffic Copper Joined: 17 Jul 2015 Karma :

hypothetically yes the cars would be completely stationary on the left side however there may be cars coming towards you on the right side at a slow speed.

the traffic cops would be the type on proper bikes (in my mind they look like those big bmw adventure bikes) not the ones on the 3wheel scooters.

the road in question is this:

A3220 just before the cross road with battersea bridge road (under the small bridge):

[img]https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4702022,-0.1644427,3a,90y,337.42h,52.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFBAIPHEYFtZmlf7D0Xn04g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656[/img]

in the pic i crossed over slightly where the grey lexus is. hypothetically i see motorbikes do it all the time

bigdom86 · Traffic Copper Joined: 17 Jul 2015 Karma :

the two coppers would be standing on that side road to the right, one with a speed camera too

Amber Phoenix · Traffic Copper Joined: 01 Feb 2013 Karma :

Interesting debate and one that often crosses my mind when I head through East India Dock Tunnel, which often has two lanes of stationary traffic going in the same direction, with solid double whites separating them. Plenty of bikers pile down the middle on the solid double whites.
____________________
Beginner Biker Adventures Blog
Yamaha FZ6 S2 2007

ScaredyCat · World Chat Champion Joined: 19 May 2012 Karma :

Rogerborg · nimbA Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :

bigdom86 · Traffic Copper Joined: 17 Jul 2015 Karma :

the only bit i am concerned about if i contest it is, "if necessary"; how would i convince a magistrate hypothetically that overtaking stationary cars is necessary rather than waiting a minute or so for traffic?

after this stretch of double white lines which goes right under the bridge and turns left there are traffic lights so there is always traffic backed up here in the morning right back maybe 200-300m. the double solid white lines only start at the dip to the bridge and finish after it before the lights

Rogerborg · nimbA Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :

ScaredyCat · World Chat Champion Joined: 19 May 2012 Karma :

bigdom86 · Traffic Copper Joined: 17 Jul 2015 Karma :

cheers. still a bit 50/50 but apparently have 10 days till i get the letter. did you take a look at the pic?

if i contest and the officer in question turns up in court and wins could i then get done for dangerous driving too as in theory from certain distances it is a blind bend? although my overtake was on the bend where i can see oncoming traffic

ScaredyCat · World Chat Champion Joined: 19 May 2012 Karma :

There are many, myself included, who would like to refer to your case if you decide to take it further. It would decide once and for all what the situation was.

From a personal stance, I'm not entirely sure I'd be brave enough to take on for the team here if I had only done my CBT.

I'd like you to fight it, but reasonably, I'd expect you to take the £100 and points on the chin and get on with your life.
____________________
Honda CBF125 ➝ NC700X
Honda CBF125 ↳ Speed Triple

wr6133 · World Chat Champion Joined: 31 Dec 2013 Karma :

The Disapproving Brit · World Chat Champion Joined: 10 Sep 2008 Karma :

J4mes · World Chat Champion Joined: 18 Mar 2011 Karma :

stinkwheel · Bovine Proctologist Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :

No journey by vehicle is strictly "necessary".

Thing is, I'd have argued the toss there and then. AND made sure it was recorded in their notebooks that the vehicles I passed were stationary when they asked if I had anything to say, this being a point which my defence would rest upon.

An outright denial of any wrongdoing often confuses policemen.

That said, I have never given a second thought to passing stationary traffic on a solid white line and would do (probably have done) it in front of a copper without even considering they might stop me.

I've even run ALONG the white line without crossing it to filter past moving traffic and have definately done so actually past a police car. I remember doing it very carefully because I knew they were watching. I remember thinking I hope they were football and not rugby fans.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

Rogerborg · nimbA Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :

bigdom86 · Traffic Copper Joined: 17 Jul 2015 Karma :

this is how it went:

filtering traffic before the double solid white lines at around 5-10mph, come up to double solid white lines and continue to filter, no oncoming traffic.

two coppers on right side of road, one holding a speed trap camera or a recording camera? not too sure.

pulls me over into that junction on the right.

office "what are you doing? you saw me standing there and you just continued do you know what you did wrong"

me "i am not too sure really, i was just filtering"

him "the correct answer would be, "i am sorry officer", now i will need to fine you and issue you 3 points, can i see you licence"

i give licence

him "do you call that filtering?"

me "if they are stationary cant i filter past them on the inside of the lines"

him " you crossed the lines, and no you cant filter past them on double white lines, you can if you stay within the line or pass on the left against the brick wall"

me " i didnt cross them, i was on the left side of the lines"

him "yes you did"

me "ok well that must have been my mistake then if i did indeed cross them"

he mentions something about me doing a cbt and if i would fail if i did that in the test, i said yes if indeed i did cross the white lines, not in a cocky way but was just talking.

we then discussed DAS and different licences for a bit, thought he would let me off. then said "right wait 10 days, you can plead guilty or not guilty, if you plead not guilty i will see you in court and its your word against mine, now on your way"

as i was getting ready to leave, a guy on an r1 or r6 not too sure comes blasting around the corner right over the white lines in the middle of the road, copper puts his arm out and signals for him to pull over, guy hesitates then just zooms off - second officer says dont worry got his number plate.

maybe i should have just zoomed off like the other guy

bigdom86 · Traffic Copper Joined: 17 Jul 2015 Karma :

oh and he didnt give me a ticket or anything, or did that statement "whatever you can say will be given in evidence in court etc etc