Modernising motorcycle training - the CBT

[Rogerborg]

[KnightsFall]

Anyone else thinking "is that it?" or would that require expecting substantive changes to begin with?

The goal of changing perceptions of CBT as a one day course only seems worthwhile but I am not seeing much else that I personally think will make a difference. Noting on the certificate that it was done on an auto, for example, does not strike me as being all that worthwhile if geared training is merely a recommendation. The lack of legislative changes at this stage seems to pretty much neuter it in general.

Clearly the licensing system from CBT onwards needs work. But it would be nice to see CBT somehow naturally feed into further training and encourage losing the Ls. In particular for younger riders and those primarily interested in lower capacity machines. Anyone wanting a big bike and old enough to ride one will likely do what it takes to get there. For young 'uns and the cheap transport crowd, one could be forgiven for thinking that there is little point in doing anything more than repeating CBT.

[Marclev]

[KnightsFall]

Kind of my point, though I regret that I do not have too many ideas as to how to improve it. I do think reducing A1 to 125 only was a step in the wrong direction and one that is unlikely to be taken back. Maybe requiring further training after CBT but rewarding it with a bit more power could work, though I guess the inevitable extra cost would put some off.

[Nexus Icon]

I think you'd have to make some pretty radical changes to the value of a CBT certificate to encourage young riders into further training and tests.

If the CBT only covered up to 49cc machines, or up to 124cc but limited to, say, 45mph, and an A1 test not only freed up the 125cc but also up to 250cc with a BHP limit somewhere in the mid 20s for both, then more kids would actually see the value in the A1 training and test.

It'll never happen, of course.
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Greetings from Shitsville!

[Wonko The Sane]

[Rogerborg]

[alekc]

The thing is: you cannot really improve CBT without destroying it.

If additional training requirements are added (i.e. theory test, minimal driving hours, etc) then nobody would do a CBT and all would go to A1 at that point.

Imho right now CBT is completely worthless, i.e. after CBT I can ride 125 bike on the streets without any knowledge of Highway Code, but I am required to pass theory exam in order to do the exact same thing on the same bike with A1 driving license.

You can throw a rock at me, but I think that the best thing to do (if we are REALLY concerned about young drivers) is to scrap CBT completely. At least we would be sure that people on the road out there know highway code and have minimal set of skills), but unfortunately (or not), we all know that it will not happen.

Right now cost of CBT in London is about 70-150 pound I believe, if they add additional driving hours, then the only difference from A1 (from the point of view of money) would be the theory exam.

[stinkwheel]

I've said it before.

When I did my test/training, a motorcycle provisional licence only lasted for two years after which there was a 12 month gap before you could reapply. (think of it as a 12 month "ban" every two years).

That was pretty effective at getting people to pull their finger out and actually do their test.

I'd re-instate this but with a caveat to allow riding while accompanied by an instructor/examiner during the "ban" period so you could still do your test.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Andy_Pagin]

CBT is better than nothing. I agree that it would make more sense to simply apply the same rules for driving a car unacompanied to motorcycles, if only because of the vast number of perpetual L platers who treat a CBT as some kind of end-game full licence and never consider taking a full test.
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They're coming to take me away, ho-ho, hee-hee, ha-haaa, hey-hey,
the men in white coats are coming to take me away.
Yamaha Vity -> YBR125 -> FZS600 Fazer -> FZ1-S Fazer

[Rogerborg]

[Doovy]

I'm still amazed I survived a year on a 50cc on a CBT.

Crashed on my first weekend, still, but I'm here today.

Tests should be compulsory from the word go.
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Yamaha RXS 100 > Honda CD 250 > Honda Hornet 600 > Honda CBR 600RR > Yamaha RXS 100 > Kawasaki ZX6R J2 > Yamaha FZ1

[stevo as b4]

I remember the old part one and part two, with the 2year limit to take your test or get on the bus instead too.

It probably worked quite well too, but the cinic in me says that it would cut down on sales too much, and the last thing manufacturers want is even less people at entry level coming into cheap 50/125cc machinery that's easy to produce cheap, and also make a profit on too.

I think the idea of a CBT to allow you to ride a 50cc only with no L-plates would be good, so making the CBT say a 2day event with more training and a written test would be good too!

Then for 125cc's, you must take the CBT first if not done so already, but it gives you L-plates that allow you to only ride with an instructor to train for an A1 test.

Passing an A1 test should give you as much freedom in the 17-19 age as possible, and allow you ride any 125cc bike, carry a pillion and give you a discount on insurance too.

A2 needs to be scrapped or changed, as the current system sounds more painful than slamming your head in a car door 100 times, and then setting yourself on fire.

The thing I don't get with A2 is not the progressive licensing concept, but the fact that there's too many stringent restrictions on machine type, size capacity and weight just to be able to sit the test.

Also it's resulted in a half hearted 2prong approach by manufacturers to cater for A2 suitable machinery, both in making lower capacity, but often boring, overpriced and poor quality bikes, or just re-hashing older bigger bikes or the boring less sharp ones that just luckily fall under the 94bhp limit.

I never liked the idea of restricting really big bikes when we had the old 33bhp limit, though the rules were far simpler then. Who wants a 180-200kg 33bhp 750-1000cc anyway?

I wouldn't buy a secondhand blade for example that's been coked up with riding around for 2years with restricted breathing, it would be a bag of crap!

Last rule should be, that old guys that can afford insurance and big bikes, should not have to pass their test on a similar bike. If your over say 30 I would say you should be able to get a full license from taking a test on a CG125.

[alekc]

Not much can be done about A2 since it's under EU regulations.

We still should be grateful that they didn't take inspiration from Spain where in order to obtain full A category you need to ride for 2 years on A2 <.<

Also I don't think that scrapping of cbt would hurt a lot sales of 50/125 cc. Not everybody are interested in big bikes, and you cannot beat MPG on those little fellas

[stinkwheel]

We could also just allow 14 year olds to ride low power 50cc mopeds the same way as bicycles like they do in many European countries.

Then the lazy people who can't be bothered to learn to ride and just want an easy way to get about don't have to as long as their machine doesn't go over 25mph.

Euro fuckwittery must already be in place to allow this.

Can't be more dangerous than foul-mouthed, superobese mobility scooter woman.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Rogerborg]

[stinkwheel]

I was under the impression you don't even need a licence (or registration or insurance) for a <25mph moped in France and Holland? Maybe that's changed?

I remember meeting a group of Dutch teenagers on a jolly round the Highlands on SLOW mopeds with no registration a few years back (back when the Rosyth ferry was runing and doing free motorbike passage to Zeebrugge). I remember wondering what would happen if the UK police saw them. Under UK law they'd be left stading at the side of the road while their moped was away being crushed but under Euro law they were doing nothing wrong.

I reckon an average 14 year old would probably be more responsible on a moped than a 16 year old in many ways anyway. They know they can't aspire to something faster for a couple of years and none of their peer-group have cars/motorbikes they need to keep up with. They don't have a sense of being something special due to owning a licence and having "passed" their CBT. I was always under the impression they were treated much like having a less hard work bicycle.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Llama-Farmer]

You can't drive a car unsupervised without passing a theory & practical test, but you can with a bike. I think that's wrong.




If they don't change A1, which they won't because Brussels, I think you should make CBT easier, lets call it CBT Lite for the purposes of this post, but that it only allows you to ride supervised by an instructor.

Then have CBT Plus, which is harder or more thorough than the current CBT, and you have to do that, plus the theory test, before you can ride unsupervised. This then allows you to ride a restricted 125 unsupervised for 12 months before you have to retake the CBT Plus, and retake the theory every 2 years. If people only commute in rush hour on a moped/125 bike then this is for them, they don't need an unrestricted bike. If they want more, they have to do more training/tests.


That way the incentive to take A1 is there.


I also think it would be better to change A1 so that it encompasses 250s as well, albeit with a power/speed restriction in the region of 80mph, so you can at least keep up with traffic on a motorway.




The old system of 2 year restriction had flaws. The new system has even more flaws.
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Current Bike: 1999 Honda CB600 FX Hornet
Next Bike: I want a CBR-RR. And I want an F800 GS-A. And a VFR 800. Can I have all 3?
Dream Bikes: Honda VFR750R RC30, Honda NSR500, Ducati 996 R

[TheBikerStig]

[Kickstart]

Hi

Depends what you want the tests to do.

Make things safer? Make the tests harder or more complicated. Might or might not make those who pass any safer, but so many less will pass / bother to try that deaths and injuries will reduce.

Give it a while and the number of riders on the road will seriously reduce.

Trouble is that the licence progression is now pretty much controlled by the EU, and while they might change it will happen so glacially slowly that is probably won't affect anyone already born.

All the best

Katy
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Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[Rogerborg]

[Jmoan]

I've lurked for a while but it does look like they're trying to ban bikes little by little in a similar manner to cigarettes except they aren't providing a replacement for small low cost transport.

In other EU countries you can have the option of a 125cc that comes with a car licence or better electric bikes* although I don't think you can get the moped cars sans permis anymore.
I remember it being mentioned that training could replace extra testing from A1 upwards.

It's no wonder that people are looking for ways to ignore these excessive regulations such as using the common law excuse.

Almost everything from the start of motorcycling licencing is a farce with the exception of the CBT. Ideally that should only be done once too.

*https://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/uk-joins-eu-e-bike-laws-but-fast-e-bikes-fail-to-win-dft-approval/017402

[Rogerborg]

[Vracktal]

[Rogerborg]

I have no doubt that strong "lobbying" from the Bosch (and from Bosch) are the only thing that's keeping eurobiking alive in its current form.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike