Downshifting

[Tillman]

Hello everyone

I have just done my cbt and am getting my bike soon but there is one thing I struggled with, downshifting.

My instructor didn't notice my problem on the road ride as he was watching 3 of us.

If I'm coming to a dead stop I'm fine because you can stop in any gear and go down to first when stationary but I can't seem to go down the gears smoothly.

Say I'm in 3rd or 4th coming from a major road into a minor. I want to get into second for the corner as I will be to slow to pick it up in 4th when coming out of the turn. When I shifted down and let the clutch out and put some throttle on the bike shows and judders.

I have seen videos on blipping the throttle but that seems too advanced.

What can I do?

[arry]

Start your braking early and be progressive, don't go back on the throttle, just clutch in and shift down one gear then let the clutch out gently and smoothly to go from 4th to 3rd, then the same again to go into 2nd.

Hopefully then that'll put you in second gear whilst still in a straight line, and then you'll be looking to go on an ever so slight throttle around the radius of the corner, increasing the throttle as you straighten up.

[mrbox]

as above really, being smooth is the key and that only comes with practise.

don't be to hard on yourself we were all wobbling round in the beginning!
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Current bikes: RE Himalayan, Bandit 12, MZ250ES

[Deso]

This is from the .gov website

[pinkyfloyd]

It is a basic error. Sounds to me like you are shifting down too early, that is why the engine jolts. It is something that will get better with practice. Try thinking a little bit earlier and slowing it down a little earlier. Do not change down until the revs have dropped to around 2K revs.

As for the CBT with 3 riders on the road. Very wrong and if this is a practice the school has they should be reported. It is hard enough to watch 2 students on a CBT without adding a 3rd on the road ride.
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illuminateTHEmind wrote: I am just more evolved than most of you guys... this allows me to pick of things quickly which would have normally taken the common man years to master
Hockeystorm65:.well there are childish arguments...there are very childish arguments.....there are really stupid childish arguments and now there are......Pinkfloyd arguments!
Teflon-Mike:I think I agree with just about all Pinky has said.

[Rogerborg]

https://www.gov.uk/cbt-compulsory-basic-training/complain-about-a-cbt-course

Yup, change down a little later. Don't fret, it's not instinctive and bikes will accentuate any mistakes. Just go riding and change gears a lot, you'll soon get it.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[rubyhorse2]

sounds like your not judging the speed to the gearing, which will come more with riding.

your also probably panicking a little about stalling which really wont happen as long as your moving. what i would do is find a nice quiet road and practice coming to a stop, seeing what speeds each gear takes and where the juddering/stalling feeling starts to come in.

you will get it soon, just practice.

[Teflon-Mike]

You have just fed the Hobby-Horse a Chestnut....

Don't shift UP, no need to shift back DOWN. Don't 'over shift', and use the revs, not the gears.

Forget 'Blipping' and that sort of stuff; your problem is like as not far more basic than that, and simply the very common newby error of over-shifting, going up too many gears to early on, and not using the full rev range, not liking the tortured noises of a small displacement single that spins to twice the revs of most car engines, frequently air-cooled, so those noises not baffled by a water-jacket, or hidden away in a box lined with sound-proof felt... you're sat on the thing, and it don't 'feel' right to rev it.

But that little engine, needs reving to make it work.

Power = Torque x Revs. So power is proportional to engine revs. Simplifying the numbers; little 125cc engine makes about 10bhp at about 10,000 revs; so, about 1-bhp per 1000 rpm;

Another equation says Power = Force x Speed. And riding a bike, this is where the power the engine delivers gets used. So more speed begs more power. But Force in question is 'Drag', and unfortunately that also increases with speed; takes about 1/3 bhp to go 1mph, takes about 1bhp to go 15mph, takes about 3bhp to go 30mph, about 9bhp to go 60mph, and about 27bhp to go 90mph. (Mathematicians will argue, 'cos its technically a 'progression) but in laymens terms its usually referred to as 'exponential', but either way, to go a little bit faster, you need a lot more power, and little motorbike engines don't generally have an awful lot of power. That 10bhp, is 'just' enough to get one up to about 60-65mph, but to get that, you have GOT to rev them up to where they actually make that much power; right up top 10,000 rpm or so.

BUT.. starting out, pottering about the houses, you'll only be on 30mph roads.. you only 'need' 3bhp or so to go that fast, and at 1bhp per 1000 revs, you probably have that at as little as 3,ooo rpm...

NOW, newby, fresh off CBT or even still on t, 'learning to ride'; its all new, there's a lot to take in, and an awful lot to do, and to remember and to remember to do, and GEARS... they are a BIG DEAL! And, certainly something that has got a lot of attension.

Where did you start. eye-sight test; coffee chat, and the boring bit about crash helmet labels and insurance and all that, most sit through bored to tears, "Yeah but I came here to play with motorbikes, SHOW ME THE BIKES! Then you got shown a motobike, got all exited and ALL they let you do was wheel it around, made you put it on its stands, not even start the engine... THEN after what seemed like an age; it all seemed to happen in a rush, and you went straight in to the biting point' and were learning 'gears', and you spent best part of the morning doing that, on the playground, unable to use more than 1st and 2nd... and it seemed like this 'GEARS' was big part of the job of riding a bike...

So, out on the road... and onto the first clear stretch of road, and up to 30mph, and and GEARS, up to 3rd... and... err... errr.. I'm riding... cant be riding... I'm just sat here... I'm not doing anything! WHY am I not doig anything, I feel I HQAVE to be doing something! It CANT be 'this easy'! Must have forgot something.. what have I forgot? GEARS, have all these gears. Sent all mornig learnig them, thy UST be important, THATS it...GEARS! and little engne, revig without a lot of load on it sounds a bit tortured Newby fills the hiatus CHANGING GEAR.. they don't NEED to, but it gives them something to do, makes them feel like all that morning gettig to grip with the bite point wasn't a waste of time, and makes the engine sound a lttle happier....

so, 25mph, 2nd to 3rd, feels good, so 28mph, 3rd to 4th, and revs come down, but you only need 3bhp to go 30mph, and engine turning 4,000 or more still making mor than enough to go that quick, and changing up to 4th felt good, so up they go to 5th.... and it feels like they are dong great, they are putting all this teaching to work, and working hard dong a lot, and and JUNCTON! They got to slow down again...

NOW.. 30mph, aproaching a junction, they have got to come down 5-4, 4-3, 3-2, three 'shifts'... compressed into a short road space, and a short time, and of bludy course 'rushing' the dam down shifts they ENT gong to be very smooth! WHILE, havig gone up the box to brng engine revs down, you have no 'revs' to slow down on jst by rolling off the throttle; bike is only gong to slow down on the gears...

Its just wrong-wrong-wrong, and a problem MADE by Newby, making work dong work that dont need to be done.

RESIST the temptation to 'short shift' and keep going up the gears. LET the little bugger rev, that's what its designed to do.

Try and ride at about 1/2 - 2/3 engine revs that'll be some where between 3,500 & 7,000 rpm if you have a rev-counter, but don't be a slave to the dials, try and get a feel for it by 'ear'; That gives you revs to 'spare' if you want to go faster, and revs to fall into if you want to slow down; it makes the bike a lot more 'responsive', and you DONT have to keep stirring the gearbox.

AND, not having gone 'up' so many gear.. you don't have so many to come back down! AND you can do that much slowing on the throttle, between down shifts.. or shift... likely only need make one!

And not have to 'rush' AND it will all start to fall into place and get that much 'smoother'..

Cos not making up shifts means you cant make bike 'lurch' when you dont make the down-shift you no longer need! And them shifts you DO need, made in better time.. well, you might still be a bit lumpy, but not as lumpy and it will get better as you practice.

Rough Reckoner for you;

1st Gear - used for 'launch' from stand still. Its extra low to get the bike, potentially with a hefty rider and pillion and luggage on board dong a hill-start. first 'up-shift' can be made almost as soon as you are moving.

2nd Gear - aught to take you from walking pace to about 25mph. Gives maximum 'throttle response', and will take you as fast as you need go, in 20 & 30 limits, where you are likely to want that throttle response, because of junctions, hazards and other traffic.

3rd Gear - is the 'mother of all work'. Should take you from around 15mph up to about 45. ANYWHERE but stop start traffic, trickling along stopping and starting, or on an clear, open 50+ posted speed limit road, THIS is the only gear you really need be in. Its covering the most used range of speeds, found in town, and its giving yo the 'best' compromise between speed, and throttle response, covers everything from the 20mph traffc calmed road past the school, out onto the 30 snarl into town, and the 40limit duelies around the ring-road or on the main drag in and out of town.

4th Gear - will take you from about 30mph pretty much to 'top speed'. So you only need this gear when you have cleared the urban snarl, and are on an open road, and can hold a higher speed, 50+ and wont have much to beg changing that speed, and what might, ought to be clearly visible a long time head, like a round about you might, come down to 3rd for, after rolling off the throttle as you slow through 40ish.

5th Gear - For now, IGNORE IT! Some bikes are actually 'faster' flat out in 4th than they are in 5th, because 5th (or 6th if they have it) is usually 'over drive'. Its geared to offer a speed 'over' that it actually has the power to achieve.

I think my 750 is 'geared' to go something like 180mph at the red-line in top.. its NEVER going to get there! It just doesn't have the power! It has enough power to do about 120, and conveniently, that comes up in 4th at about 'peak-power' revs, a bit before the red line. All 'top' gear does is let you drop the revs back for more relaxed 'cruising', at 60 or 70 'ish', which need less than 1/3 the power the engine might delver.

On a 125, without the 'excess' of power to really make use of an over-drive gear, and barely enough power to achieve higher 'normal' speeds, in the 50-70 region, it's not particularly useful.

Only time it may be, is if you are on a long open bit of road like a duel carriageway, able to hold 50+ for mile after mile, when it might let you knock back the revs a tad, as you don't really need the 'throttle response' or after winding the thing up to terminal velocity, around 60, it may' let you eek out the last couple of mph it might have in 'favourable' conditions, and see 70 on the dial on a long down-hill of with a good tail wind

BUT, 10bhp, at 10K revs, 3bhp at 3K revs; even as an 'over-drive' geared 'over' the 60-70- the bikes power might allow, suggesting perhaps 100mph at the red line; it's likely that 3omph comes up at something just over 3,000rpm, where you have a little over the 3bhp needed to go that quick, and you CAN short shift all the way to top that early and the bike will pull that gear, ut you'll have bog all throttle response and acceleration, and it'll be loath to go any quicker without down shifting, and to go slower, you have to crash down two or three extra gears for the 'trouble' you have made gong up that far, pretty needlessly.

SO, the suggestion is, BTT, if you don't go up, you don't need to come back down; and if 3rd is mother of all work, what are you doing in 4th in the situation you describe coming up to a junction?

Easiest way to make smooth down shifts is to NOT make the upshift that begs them! And if you don't have to, why make work for yourself?

Do it on the Throttle, USE the REVs. and give yourself revs to slow down into, rather than make upshifts, that beg down shifts to get the revs up to slow down on.

You REALLY don't need to worry about such things as 'blipping' IF you are using the gears properly and riding 'for response' to start with. Make it easy for yourself and don't over work the cogs!
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[Evil Hans]

... And remember that when you get your own bike, the clutch and gearshift will almost certainly be smoother than on the shagged out CBT bike.

My local training centre has a fleet of 20-year (or more) old Honda CGs for CBTs and they are all a bit ropey.

(Their DAS bikes were great, though, and they never had more than 2 students to an instructor on CBT or DAS.)

[Slacker24seve...]

[RhynoCZ]

One bit I was told when I was obtaining my licence. If you do not want to gain speed, do not touch the throttle. Bigger the engine is, more crucial this bit of wisdom gets.

Learn how to blip the throttle, just standing still, the engine off, first. One, or two, fingers on the brake lever, disengaging the clutch and quickly opening the throttle at the same time. During that the gear change shall occur. And before you let the clutch go again, the throttle must be completely shut again. It takes a bit of learning, not the throttle part, but the clutch.

As you know your bike the best, you found out, that you do not have to get the lever too far to disengage the clutch completely. Just squeezing the lever a bit and it's disengaged (like when you go for a wheelie). That's it, that's where you want to operate the clutch when blipping the throttle. Squeezing the clutch lever completely, so it touches the bar, takes too much time and you won't be smooth.

The first proper downshift with blipping the throttle is like your first ride on a bicycle. Seems impossible at first, but then it gets awesome and your everyday routine.

WHY YOU SHOULD BLIP THE THROTTLE:
1) It's cool
2) It is the right way of downshifting (smooth)
3) It is safer and you get crap loads of stability at fast pace riding (prevents the rear wheel from locking. Helpful in wet/cold)
4) It is better for your motorcycle (rear tyre, chain, sprockets, gearbox, clutch and also the crankshaft)
5) It's cool

EDIT: I started with blipping the throttle, after I saw this video https://youtu.be/Y9oGLBguVAw?t=4m31s it just felt so cool to do it.
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'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor

[Slacker24seve...]

[RhynoCZ]

I got a bit carried away, but it is not impossible to handle it in the early years.

Also cool as feck: https://youtu.be/BG6agfShsF4?t=3m33s
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'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor

[stevo as b4]

Obviously try to rev match the speed when letting out the clutch after a down shift.

But I think trying to go down progressively through the gearbox when your slowing for a hazard, bend or junction is not really helping. You should ask and listen to how your riding instructor would like your to ride for test standard.

But slowing down using the brakes, and then downshifting after all braking is completed to the correct gear, either through block changing or quick progressive changing is probably the best way.

If you were riding on a track, then braking at the correct point and losing as much speed as required quickly without letting gear changing distract you or take your attention, would always be the right thing to do.

[talkToTheHat]

You need to know exactly what you're doing to block shift, the chances of going down too many gears and crushing your balls into the tank are quite high if you are new to bikes.

125s dont putter about at low revs, if you're not revving the nuts off it, you're doing it wrong, and you need to work the gears. You can tool around in 3rd all day on a moderately sized bike and feel like you're riding well.

Downshift a gear at a time, throttle off, clutch in quickly and back out slowly. Work on it, first slowing down without brakes. Then under braking gently at first and ease off the back brake when the clutch goes in. You'll get smoothness with practice.

Dont mess with the gears if the slowing down becomes an ememrgency stop, keep the clutch out untill you are on the brink of stalling. Mess with gears when you have successfully stopped.

You'll get some clutch feel quite quickly. Once you have that and can downshift smoothly without a blip, then work on that if you think you need to. Same applies for block shifts. 4th to 2nd you'll use a lot approching traffic lights. Practice. But you wont ever get a blocknshift smooth if you've not got a single downshift smooth.

Learn one new trick at a time.

As an aside i started taking a pillion regularly in spring. I had to relearn how to shift as a bit of extra weight changed the feel of the bike considerably and everything was jerky. I got told off some as my pillion knew it could be smoother. Thereabouts got it over the course of our first long weekend away on the bike. She dozed off whilst i was hustling the bike through some backroads as fast as I dare in the rain and only woke up when i had to stop in a hurry because audi driver. But all the skills, smooth clutch control, gear selection and rev matching, smooth and effective braking, the right thing to do changes, so teach yourself the working out how. I dont think ive ever borrowed a bike for long enough to be really smooth as on my own, but every different bike i ride the time it takes to adapt and to adapt back to my own is shorter.
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Bandit. does. everything.