Need help! Das vs 125. Honda cb1 400 vs cbf125

[Flukeyspud]

Hi everyone!
I have read many forums on the das vs cbt 125 route but was hoping someone could advise me on the following specifics.
At a cross roads got cbt (1 year ago) certificate but felt the day was a waste of time and I might as well as just been let loose anyway. I have used both a ybr and vespa a handful of times and have been making excuses not to ride them. This is not because I don't enjoy but confidence and knowhow.

Option 1 a cb1 400 "grey bike" that has 38k on the clock 10 years service history used by a bike courier that I can buy and then do my das.

Option 2 a honda cbf125 2014 plate very low mileage still under warranty no mot etc. Can ride straight away.

Cost wise option 2 is more expensive initially but will save me money on fuel and maintenance presumably mpg 130 vs cb 45ish. Insurance cost the same for both bikes. Option 2 means more cost later on when I do das however sale of cbf should cover das and atleast put towards another bike.

I will be using it for commuting a 30 mile round (3 mile housing estates 2 miles A road 5 mile dual carriageway 5 mile town/city approximately) trip 3 days a week. I have a car for the really rubbish weather and a train station down the road for snow. I am I healthy 6 foot tall 12-13 stone if that helps.

If anyone with experience of these bikes can help I would like to hear from you.

Which one from the above?
Thankyou
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Flukeyspud

[Rogerborg]

Neither.

As you're thinking of getting licensed up, get it done. Do a taught course with a decent instructor, get your license (24+, full A?) then look around for a bike.

2nd choice would be a cheap 125. Maybe that CBF, but only if it's genuinely cheap. If it is, I'd wonder why it's still available.

I would not buy the CB1 just because it happens to be available. Nothing inherently wrong with it, but it'll be sitting around doing nothing until you're licensed up, and then having done your training and test on a 600/650 you may find yourself with buyer's remorse.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Flukeyspud]

Thankyou for reply!
Price wise cb1 and das is cheaper then the cbf, cbf only just put up for sale and is a good price in comparison however 1 year old honda's still fetch a fair few pounds.
That makes the das first a good option especially as I think I won't be using either till March regularly.

I suppose my question is then what is the best size bike for my intended use?
That will answer whether or not I need to do the DAS.
Cheers
____________________
Flukeyspud

[Rogerborg]

Either will be fine, but you'll be caning the 125 in the 60/70 limits and wishing it had just a bit more go.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Teflon-Mike]

This is a classic Toy or Transport question.
CB1 is a Toy
CBF s Transport
What do you want, something to play with, or something to get you places?

125's make great utility machines; they have enough performance to go just about as fast as anything else is legally allowed to go in this country; you can go pretty much anywhere you would on any other bike on one (with a full licence); and their biggest asset is 'Cheaps', that means they can delver a hell of a lot of biking way out of proportion to their displacement or cost.

Bigger bikes add cost.. for which you might get a bit more comfort, possibly a bit more convenience, but usually just a lot more, usually illegal if you use it, performance.

The CBF is a regulation Learner-Commuter. Very useful little bike is not particularly inspiring. BUT, main attraction to most, isn't so much the 'cheaps' they could deliver, but that they can be ridden on L-Plates, exploiting the legacy loop-hole of the 'provisional licence' intended to let you 'practice' for tests, from the era when that was the only way to learn.

Rather perverse notion for you; motorcycles, statistically THE most dangerous class of motor-vehicle we have, and as said, 125's can go as far and fast as any other displacement, have to live in the same traffic and face the same hazards and so are JUST as 'dangerous' as any other motorbike, YET, it is the only class of motor-vehicle any-one is allowed to use, on the public road, unsupervised ahead of passing tests to prove their competence to do so.... bit mad that innit? Just cos the law says its legal, don't mean it's 'safe'.

CBT isn't a licence, its a first lesson, and a CBT, and L's isn't a substitute for a full course of lessons towards a licence.

So back to the bikes... you have offered two suggested plans, both of which are based on flawed and significantly economic reasoning, lumping the cost of lessons in with the bike!

Take the DAS course out of the equation. A DAS course isn't a motorbike. It isn't even buying you a motorbike licence! Which is something so many seem to think is the sole reason for paying for one.

DAS isn't even a 'course' really. There's no DAS 'syllabus', like a Physics A-Level or anything! The Direct Access Scheme, is a redundant bit of 'legacy' in licence & test laws, from when, in history (Three years ago!) you might have riden a 125 on L's and could take tests on that 125 to gain a 'full' ride what you like, motorbike licence, with a two-year power restriction; Then DAS 'provisions of law' allowed riders of eligible age, to take test and get the full-licence without power-probation IF they took the test on a 'big-bike' and permitted them to ride such a 'big-bike' on the road ahead of passing tests, if under full supervision of a qualified instructor.. that was all. DAS 'courses' were merely lessons offered under the DAS provisions of Law.

DAS is 'JUST' lessons. And now-a-days, since they have split the full bike licence into three groups, if you want ether of the two higher ones, 'Lessons' are practically the only way to get one.

BUT, Lessons are for LIFE, not LICENCES!

Should be doing them to learn how to ride, and stay safe on a bike on the road; not just so you can get a bigger 'toy' to play with!

So you shouldn't be lumping the cost of lessons into the costs of a bike! If ANYTHING you ought be lumping cost of lessons in with other stuff that keeps you 'safe', crash-hat and boots and stuff.. but even there; easy to 'see' the value in a crash hat; its a tangible object we can hold; and easy to look at one all skuffed up and bashed when we have come off and go "Yeah! Saved my 'ed that did! Worth every penny!" Bit harder to see the value in lessons, when you don't get anything 'tangible' for your money, and its hard to 'see' the value in crashes we DON'T have because of them, and we DON'T have a £300 crash hat, all skuffed and wrecked to show for it...

So lets get back to basics and re-think 'The Plan'

[Flukeyspud]

Hi mike

Thankyou for the in depth reply giving me lots to think about.

You are spot on with the cb 1 being worth only scrap value and toy vs transport is a good question.

Initially, last year, i thought bike would be cheaper then car and slightly quicker as 10 miles of my journey is spent in slow moving traffic. When you factor in parking on the outskirts of town at a reasonably priced car park and a ten minute walk from there my 15 mile commute takes a hour on a Monday Wednesday Thursday.

Tuesday and Friday my wife works and we take the family car my wife uses socially the other days of the week. We can park at her work in the centre of town.

Sunday I take out my classic car my favourite toy no traffic and free parking.

So the bike was to share some mileage the classic is doing on a mon wed Thursday when wife uses family car and to safe time commuting. And that's where you are again spot on with me trying to justify the bike or new toy. If time or mileage sharing was the only reason I can get the train and do the journey in 40 minutes shaving 20 minutes of this commute and reducing my mileage.

So cost train is 10 pound return so factoring that in your spot on if cost is the issue selling the classic and the family car would save me money and time just getting the train (annual ticket savings).

So luxury and because of the luxurys I have I am factoring more costs. So my choices between train and bike 3 days a week £30 per week becomes the budget.

I did my cbt and brought the best equipment I could find because if I can't work that would be a much bigger cost then any so I'm all for preparing before jumping on a bike.

Your reply is really informative because the way you are led through advertising is 1 day cbt then ride on L plates then do different licences or das, basically buy your licence which is pretty much what I felt the cbt was (I have since learnt this should not be the case)

So yes lessons is what I need to learn how to be safe! Which is why I still have the best equipment and no bike because that was the safe thing to do. Playing with traffic is not the way to learn.

For my commute the cbt, private lessons and economical 125 is exactly what I need. To pop and see my family after work without worrying about traffic jams on motorways I need something a bit bigger I appreciate I didn't mention this earlier.

Cb1 my thoughts were, it's cheap enough to start off on and scrap it if it goes wrong, after spending as much time and money as it takes through lessons for me to be safe on the road (originally did think the das does just that). It does not have to be a cb1.

Fools accountancy well you almost make me consider selling all my luxuries and working less, likewise is motorcycling really worth it am I spending money to protect myself or just spending money to put myself at unnecessary risk.

Thanks for your time and lessons is the way forward two very informative replies with plenty of food for thought.
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Flukeyspud

[Teflon-Mike]

What's the clapped out old banger.... sorry, cherished pride and joy 'classic'? And should we infer that you enjoy the 'fun' and frustration of slimy spanners and skinned knuckles on a regular basis to keep it clunking? You may already be a few steps into the masochism cellar before you begin

My perversion is a quarter century old 'original' shape' Range-Rover Vogue. It's my third one. You'd have thought I would have learned better by now! But V-E-E-E-E-E E-I-G-H-H-H-H-H-T!!! Something about the noise hypnotises you into believing that nothing else will do!

That's about all it does though.... its been sat on ramps since the spring, with me NOT dong the necessary and pulling the motor out, to wack in some new core-plugs and replace the PITA heater-hoses.. which I THINK should nail down the coolant loss issues I've bee chasing for five years... its like a old wooden boat! Every time I plug one hole its sprung a leak some-where else! Its a perpetual 'work in progress', and every time I come back from a green-laning expedition in it, there's half a dozen new jobs on the list to get around too.. while my daughter has BANNED me from ever doing another 'Pay & Play'!

Bikes? Well, if the classic in question is an old Mini or Morris Minor or similar, and you are used to tickling screw-and-locknut tappets every other week-end; greasing your trunions, and tickling Lucas Ducellier distributors.. the amount of 'user-maintenance' motorbikes tend to demand might not be a shock or unduly onerous to you.

To any-one brought up in the Zetek rather then 'cross-flow'-era, used to engines that need nothing but new oil and plugs until they mash their valves when the cam-belt snaps, the frequent attentions bikes tend to require, like having to adjust the drive chain once a week or so, can be a bit of an anathma.

These attentions, can also seriously dent any suggestion of 'cheeps' if modern 'sealed for life' domestic-appliance driver doesn't have a bit of old fashioned spanner savvy, and has to pay a paid mechanic to do this sort of thing for them, when £30 an hour 'back-street' labour rates can mount up very quickly.

If you already have that spanner savvy from an old banger with four wheels, you may be a bit ahead of the heard on this one....

BUT, risk is, with two more 'maintenance intensive' vehicles to look after, begging three times the time to look after them, you end up neglecting them both twice as badly.... one of the reasons I'm loath to hoik the Rangies lump out.. once upon a time I had V8 Engine swaps down to a practised art ad could do one comfortably in a week-end.. but them ones didn't have twenty pulleys and a nuclear power-stations plumbing for power-steering and air-conditioning and engine oil cooler, and transmission fluid cooler, and all the other shit it has, like gas conversion!! And I wasn't ALSO looking after an Italian Tractor, sorry, 'Moto-Guzzi' AND trying to restore a Honda 125 for my Daughter's 17th! Oh Fuck-it! Chuck a 25l jerry of water in the boot and keep an eye on the temp gauge! 'reasoning' starts to get applied!

Be warned; another vehicle is another 'drain' on resources, likely as big as the classic car is already; just cos its not as big don't mean its not just as capable of making work for you!

Would you be spending money to put yourself at unnecessary risk?

Well, I have done myself more damage in the last thirty years FIXING Land-Rovers, than I have anything t do with motorbikes; dropping 2&1/4 iron block deseasil engines on my legs, taking my finger-prints off on an angry grinder, that sort of thing... almost SHOT MYSELF once! Cutting into a rotten Series III Landy Bulkhead.. fucking farmers waggon, loose 12-bore shells had fallen through the cracks in the oddment tray into the box section I was chopping out with a grinder!

Yeah, LIFE is dangerous! In fact so dangerous, I have yet to know any-one get out of it alive! BAN BEDS, that's what I say. More people die in beds than i car or motorbike accidents or falling off mountains or other silly stuff put together!

The risks are there. Everything is a risk. And yeah, bikes ARE dangerous; it's about knowing the risks and ranking them; you probably do twenty things more dangerous than riding a motorbike to work every, week; putting up shelves, climbing a ladder; going out on the town on a Friday night! Its just that none of them stimulate the same knee-jerk 'emotive' 'oooh! Dangerouse' reaction. Caused MOSTLY because the 'danger' is so buddy obvious! You are exposed on a bike you feel exposed. Embrace it, fear is there for a reason!Being a little scared is good! Tells you to be aware and NOT do anything daft! Its all them other things you do where you DON'T think of the dangers you ought to be worrying about!

Its when you let that 'fear' get out of control; when it becomes 'nervous' and fear of doing the wrong thing makes you do nothing, OR the wrong thing. OR that fear translates as 'thrill' and 'excitement' and begs you to keep the thrill levels up, and ignore or worse seek risks to keep that 'buzz' going.

Recognise the risks; accept the risks, keep your wits about you, and know that safety comes from USING your head, not sticking it i a polystyrene pot, thinking you have it covered, just cos that hat might cushion the blow a bit, and THEN the risks are NOT 'unnecessary' they are 'calculated'.. aren't they? And you accept as much as you calculate you can handle and no more... job done.

I've been riding these 'stupid suicide machines' for almost forty years, almost as long as I have been able to walk! I may have had a bit of a head start, and I might have done most of my crashing off-road, in my youth, around t'farm and in trials competition; but, so far... and it MAY be significantly down to shear luck... BUT, I have not broken any bones, never spent a night in hospital, or been laid up off work, because of anything to do with biking.... Oh I HAVE come off! And in trials more unusual to NOT come off; BUT; I have done worse to myself, doing DIY around the house and playing spanners with lost cause vehicles!

WORST 'motorcycle-related' injury I have ever had? Embarrassing anecdote; One Sunday, booked in to do a Gypsy trial in the Cotswoulds; two mates who stored their MX bikes in the adjacent shed, were heading off to an Enduro when I packed up to go, ad arrived back a little after I did, while still unloading. Bike COMPLETELY mangled on the back of the car; I had utterly stuffd it five times on section five; a nadgery 45 degree climb from a dead start with a U-Turn through three 'gates', so .:. of poles t go through the square not even a bikes legth, on an effing steep hill! And I looped the thing every time, and came down on my back! I actually went on and did another lap and a bit, before I decided to call it a day, the bike was too mangled to ride; so packed up to come home, where Garry & Howard see the bashed up bike and want all the gruesome details, and Garry realises that I am bleeding, BADLY, slurring my words and going feint! And helps me into the kitchen to find bandages while Howard put my bike away for me! "So how did you do THIS!" they demand as my Gran tuts about 'Stupid Dangerous Motor-Bikes' shooing the pair away to make tea, reminding them she was a nurse.... "I fell over walking back to the car-park!"

Gods truth. TOTALLED the bike. But after loading up, event hadn't ended, so I walked back to spectate. End of the event, walked back to the car, slipped in the car-park, and fell onto a pile of rubble, and impaled myself on a bit of steel re-enforcement bar poking out the fucking heap opening up a major vein! Still have a six inch scar on the inside of my left elbow!

"What?!" Says Garry & Howard, "Y'Man you didn;t do this coming off the bike?!?!?! You tripped! In the chuffi CAR-PARK!" Disgusted, they were. Disgusted. They wasted a hero's welcome on me for being a tit and tripping over my own feet! You gotta laugh!

BUT, pot is there's danger every-where; USE your head, keep your wits; LOOK for the obvious risks; weigh them up, and MANAGE them. Absolutely NO reason you cant have a very long and remarkably un-eventful riding career.

Tangential Topic of Saving Time on a Commute: Another nugget and often unrealised 'idea' about biking.

Once upon a time I had a fairly long commute. I lived in Stratford-Upon-Avon, I worked in South Birmingham, about twety miles or so. About 2/3 f itcountry road, the rest city snarl, and I had the choice of bike or car; bike being my VF1000, and car being a Fiesta XR2 MKII.

From putting coffee-cup down in the kitchen at home, to putting coffee cup down on my desk at work, there was often bugger all difference in time taken between bike over car.

Yes, I could cut down the time on the road on the bike; Out of the houses, onto the by-pas, and I could wack the taps open and be doing 150, down the white line, where cars couldn't over-take!

Into the city, and weaving the thing between the queues, had to slow down a bit, but at least I was still moving...

BUT, only way to save time is to take more risks, and 150mph is seriously NOT good for life or licence!

Filtering? Well, you REALLY have to know where and when you can 'get away with it'.

It is filtering through slower moving traffic that catches out most riders.

This is where you have to be very cute in calculating the risks; you can work very hard, and take a lot of chances, filtering, and actually NOT make much road time for it all, over sitting it out and picking your time and place more prudently. Like I said, its not the 'risks' that matter, its weighing up the ones worth taking!

BUT, even with extremely illegal speeds, and shall we say more 'aggressive' filtering.... time saved on a 40 minute journey? IF I didn't waste most of it suiting up to ride at the start and suiting off to work at the end, and chaining the bike up; I MIGHT save the time it took the kettle to boil for that first cuppa.

I could save more time, in the car, setting out half an hour earlier and missing a couple of school congestion zones; or beige 'lucky' on the twenty sets of lights through Shirley; or just not making that first cuppa to take to my desk.

I could loose as much time on the bike, from a broken down bus, or an artic blocking a round-about, or council digging up a bit of road.

Time savings may be there; but tending to be 'insignificant' compared to other journey time influence variables in the environment; and in the final balance, made by accepting more risk.. risks that save you about as much time as it takes to boil a kettle and make a cuppa, if you take them for almost a whole hour!

It is NOT something of such significance you should factor it into the decision, let alone use it to justify the decision.

Only reason I did it, was because I PREFERRED being on the bike than cooped up in the car. I had to. On that bike it cost me more money! Book said it should do 35mpg, but riding the thing like that I was lucky to get double figures! While it wore tyres to shreds n no-time, and hammed chains bearings, bushes and brake pads into oblivion in tripple time! Price of my 'fun'....

PARKING I always had company parking spaces, so paying for parking was never a cost I incurred; but by all accounts something that can be quite exorbitant these days, and make more of a difference.

Certainly influences my choice whether to take the bike or car more than anything else, 'popping to town' or whatever.

Bike parking is still often 'free' in a lot of places; BUT, they may hide the bike parking bays away in inconvenient places, that can give you a longer walk, that could make your journey time longer, even if you do ramp the risks to cut down road time!

Otherwise they can get 'sneaky', and you cant just park where you like, in a lot of places; and some councils seem to like finding bikes on the pavement to hit with a penalty charge for giving them the chance to charge you money.

And you have to be a little more prudent, these days, it seems about street parking. Seems folk are so desperate for parking spaces now, that they are quite happy to get out of their cars and try shift a motorbike to make a bit more room for their car, and can easily drop it in the process and just walk away; OR not having the big flat metal panel to reflect their 'parking sensors' just drive over the fucker! Problem might be more highlighted by 'Face-Book', but rarely heard of these sort of incidents twenty odd years ago.

But, can be a bonus, can be a problem.

Back to your plan? Well, starting point is you need to do CBT whether on its own or part of a course.

Most schools don't do ad-hoc 125 trainig any more, and f they do, it tends to be expensive, because they still have to cover the costs of the big-bike even if you aren't using it. Hence 'Intensive' or 'Block' courses, a full week, or whole days, will tend to be the more available and affordable.

You are old enough to qualify under DAS, so you may as well train under DAS. You recognise the value in training, so go get that then worry about where to go next.

Pass Tests, ad yo get a ride what you like licence, and that means ride what you like; if you want a 125 for 'cheaps' and practicality then perfectly fine to rid one! I Do! No one will take a full licence off you if you dot buy a 600+cc mega bike within weeks of passing!

125's tend to live hard lives in the hands of newbies who tend not to know much about how to ride'em or look after'em, while the 'licence free' status tend to keep prices high, even on clapped out old nails.

So a bigger bike is much more likely to tempt you once you have a licence i your pocket, BUT here and now, you don't, so work on that, and see what's what when you get there.
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[GSTEEL32]

CB1 for me.

Its a proper bike and will give you the motivation to get your license.

I quite like its classic lines too... Pretty retro.

Although I'm biased, I did my full test on one, they're a great way to step up from a 125.