My experience from complete novice to licence.

[Joelarley]

Hi

I've been reading the forums for the last couple of weeks and thought I'd share my story.

I read a couple of comments from fellow learners who said it helped reading other peoples experiences and being able to relate to them. I'll try to keep the post succinct and not waffle on too much..

I won't go into to much pre-story but to set the record clear, my dream bike for a long time has been a Harley Davidson Sportster Iron 883.

I did have limited experience with motorbikes while living abroad prior to this journey, and have owned a couple of 125 off-road bikes whilst growing up (I'm 27 now), it's with this foundation that I knew my love for biking wasn't a complete guess, and that there was something there calling me to it.

I committed myself to the route of DAS and booked in my CBT and Theory/Hazard perception test to get started.

I was more than prepared to get my licence before buying a bike, however before even doing as much as the CBT I signed for the bike having come across the best deal I'd thought I'd get and purchased my dream bike by chance. No more than 20 minutes from my house, the local Harley store had a 3 year old Sportster Iron (2012 model), £5500, no modifications and only 579 miles on the clock. It was too good to pass up and I had to have it. In hindsight despite this being a great deal, it did add pressure to tests in terms of passing, it wasn't easy. But at the same time I felt it gave me added motivation during the difficult times to come as well.

I passed the theory/hazard tests a week before I did the CBT, I drove already so found it was more a case of common sense. For those doing this from new, or like me are driving cars already, I'd strongly recommend the DSA dvd and highway code book. The questions were identical to those in the test, and the hazard perception clips were very useful in preparing me. I was a little surprised to see that they have now changed the hazard perception clips from real video to CGI. That being said the hazards are almost laughably obvious, if you can do the real clip tests and pass, you can do the CGI ones. There is a technique to passing, but having done this before with my driving licence I passed with no problems. My theory was 49/50, and hazard perception 72/75, more importantly it was a pass and a step in the right direction.

I then did my CBT a week later on a YBR 125, I was in a group of 4, me being the only novice, the other 3 were there to refresh their certificates and all showed up on their own bike. I'll never forget the elation of sitting on that bike, engine purring, waiting to set off down the playground, I can't say why or how, but I knew it just felt right for me and I was where I was meant to be.

I picked up the mechanics relatively quickly, my only real development being the emergency stop. I can assure you the more experienced riders are right when they say stopping in an emergency on a 125 is considerably harder than on a bigger, more powerful bike. I was also lucky on the day in that the instructor sent the other 3 students to have lunch early while giving me some 121 tuition. This proved invaluable in giving me the confidence needed for the road ride. After lunch the instructor took the first two out, got them their certs and sent them on their way. Next up was me and the only remaining chap and his bike. There were some initial nerves, however these were immediate dispelled when on the open road, it was one of the best times I've had on the road and I instantly felt at home on two wheels. I dreaded the end of the ride, but by the end knew the 125 wasn't going to be enough for me, and that even If I hadn't bought the Harley, I'd still have gone ahead with DAS.

Next up was my MOD 1 training, I know there are schools which fit the DAS into a week, the school I went with elected to do it over a few weeks, depending on test dates. This approach I felt worked best for me given my restrictions with work, and generally being more comfortable with a more progressive rather than intense approach. I did my first few hours on a Friday morning riding on a Yamaha diversion, I can only imagine the grin on my face as we set off for the road ride. We spent a few hours riding around some beautiful roads on a nice sunny day and felt even more confident that I was pursuing the right thing. A week later we did a mock test on a playground which was setup as well as it could have been, I went through each exercise and didn't feel like I had an issue with any of the exercises in particular. My only concern is that wasn't big enough to get to 32mph for the speed exercises, you could safely manage around 25mph.

Then came test day two days later. I wouldn't say I felt particularly nervous, but there were the usual test day jitters. I was with another learner but I was up first. The examiner was really nice, and did put me at ease. A tip I was given my instructor is that if you felt nervous before the next exercise, ask the examiner a question about the route, the exercise, something relevant to buy yourself a little time. I got through the first 8 exercises (Parking bay, slalom, figure of 8, slow ride, u turn, stop in the box, emergency stop) no problem. On the hazard avoidance I made the rookie error of looking down at the speedo, by the time I looked up it was too late, and I clipped the inside cone by an inch. Gutted. Of course it was instant fail and a miserable wait while the other chap passed no problems, of course I was happy for him but was terribly upset with myself.

I rebooked a few weeks later, the next possible date, and went back the to the same test pad. Eerily I was the only one there, the only person besides me, my instructor and the examiner was the cleaner. I did feel more at ease this time, some jitters but ready to pass this time. Everything went smoothly and I passed with a clean sheet and my mod 1 certificate.

Next up came the Mod 2, at this point I was almost certain I'd pass this as like most riders at that point I felt pretty comfortable on the road. In hindsight this just wasn't the case, I severely underestimated just how easy it was to fail the test and quickly learnt this the hard way.

My first Mod 2 exam felt like it went as well as it could, only to get back to the test centre I find out I'd failed because of going too slow in a 60. Out of the attempts I had with the Mod 2 exam this was the least easy to accept. I know the examiners say is final, which is why I didn't dispute it, but it was difficult to accept. To set the scene there was a country road about a 100 yards in length before a tight right corner, I hadn't ever been taken down the road so naturally took my time, while maintaining good progress. There was a learner in a car a little further in front of me not driving particularly quickly, so I anticipated this and slowed down accordingly, it was also quite wet. I failed for this section of the test. I was driving at 38 mph because I genuinely felt in that scenario it was the safest speed to do, 60 would have been a death sentence. His response was "What happened to 45?".

Onto attempt no 2, the Harley would have to wait a little while longer.

The 2nd test ultimately ended in a fail, but this time I understood why, I was parked in a set of unfamiliar lights, I was parked directly underneath it, didn't see the light change, and a car honked it's horn. Fail. Fair enough.

Still no Harley for me.

The 3rd time and not lucky by any stretch resulted in a fail. I passed on the right side of some road works taking my gap in the traffic, coming the other way was a truck which as result of my action had to stop. He had only just set off, so it wasn't a life threatening situation, but because the hazard was on my side of the road he had right of way. Again I can appreciate where the examiner was coming from, besides this it was a clean sheet so there were some positives to take away from the ordeal.

I knew at this point I could ride the bike, I knew how the test worked, and I knew what I had to do to pass. It just seemed that I was either extremely unlucky or equally stupid on the day of the test.

4th time..

Resulted in a Pass! The day didn't start well as we got word the examiners were on strike. As it happened the examiner I'd had the last two times was on strike that day, and someone from senior management at the DVSA was filling in in his car. He was actually very approachable, very calming and had no ego about him. I understand examiners aren't there to be your mate, they're there to assess your ability to safely ride a motorbike on the open road. But the previous examiners all had an attitude that didn't help with nerves and despite me not having many criticisms with the examining process, I feel this is something they need to work on. The test went as well as it could have, I got almost the exact same test route and passed with a clean sheet.

Two days later I find myself with my newly acquired licence, insurance and sat on my Harley, previously signed for and left at the dealership almost 6 months earlier. I can't begin to describe how good it felt to sit on her, start her up. Nothing in my life has ever felt as right as that did in that moment. I'd almost instantly forgot the amount of setbacks I'd had, the repeated tests, the additional fees, the frustration of coming so close but being so far. To the guys and girls reading this and still waiting to pass, it's every bit as worth it was you can imagine, and then some.

Keep going, and if you have a setback tell yourself what I told me, you either pass or you learn.

[pinkyfloyd]

Took a while, both to get through the tests for you and reading it for me but well done.

Shame you went ghey and bought a Hardly Abletoo.
____________________
illuminateTHEmind wrote: I am just more evolved than most of you guys... this allows me to pick of things quickly which would have normally taken the common man years to master
Hockeystorm65:.well there are childish arguments...there are very childish arguments.....there are really stupid childish arguments and now there are......Pinkfloyd arguments!
Teflon-Mike:I think I agree with just about all Pinky has said.

[Joelarley]

[NJD]

TLDR?

Congrats on the pass.

[Rogerborg]

What Training do I need before I take the tests?


NEED? Well, legally you don't 'NEED' any! (beyond CBT) But see above! Itsdamned useful stuff, and ideally passing tests should be a by-product oftraining to become a safe competent rider, NOT the goal!

the 'Ideal' way to train, in my opinion, is on your own (learner-Legal)bike. You do your CBT, then as SOON as you are ready to start out on theroad on your own, you book some weekly lessons. Schools vary in what theywill offer, but two hours a week, is about right.

Starting RIGHT at the start, you learn how to do it RIGHT. Saves learningby your own mistakes, which can be expensive and painful, why its called'The School of Hard-Knocks!'. and saves you getting into bad-habits.

You do your CBT, ride for a week, have a lesson. Instructor checks yourriding, picks up on any mistakes & corrects them, then gives you something'new' to learn, gives you a chance to get the idea, then sends you home, andyou have a whole week, where you can practice this to your hearts contentand get it 'nailed'. Following week, you go back, instructor checks yourriding, picks up on any mistakes & corrects them, sends you home withsomething ELSE to practice.

You learn in stages, with plenty of time to master what you are taught.You can learn at your own rate, and it ought to be pretty efficient, becauseyou aren't letting bad habits or problems perpetuate, they are being pickedup as you go along and corrected.

On such a course, a 'typical' newbie, could quite easily get to teststandard in perhaps, six or eight weeks. Month and a half, two months, andbe trained not just to test standard, but with experience gained while being'mentored', be pretty well 'prepared' for post test riding.

I always say; every HOURS training, in the first month of riding is wortha DAY after a years riding. Many new riders do leave it THAT long by thetime they get round to doing any post CBT training, and its oftenrealisation that their CBT cert is about to expire that prompts them to'cram'; and its often difficult, because they have got used to doing stufftheir own way, and it can be three times as hard to get them to ride to thebook, when they have never learned the 'right stuff' and their unsupervisedL-Plate experience as often has NOT been good, and they have a LOT of badhabits, and often fears of doing stuff, learned from falling off or nearlyfalling off, when they have had no guidance.

But ultimately, it's a piece of string question, and as mentioned abovein comment on What's CBT and below in 'is it any easier'; we ALL learn atdifferent rates, and we start off with some pre-dispositions that might makeit easier, others that can make it harder. So I cant say.

BUT, get some training booked, and your instructor should be able tojudge to SOME degree how much work you need and where, to give better ideas.

From a standing start though, 16-20 hours of tuition is a good reckoner., following my ideal model of weekly lessons, that's USUALLY enough to covera lot of ground and lay down a pretty good foundation skill-set. Peopledoing Intensive DAS courses, can often go from a standing start to getting alicence in that amount of training, though see below, I don't recommend'Crash-Courses', and candidates will rarely get as MUCH preparation, fortheir money.

BUT, training to test standard is ONLY the beginning. Once you have thatsolid foundation skill-set; you are STILL going to be a learner for maybethree years of riding; and as you gain experience, there is a lot you mightwant to ask about or get advice or instruction on.

So REALLY the answer is, how much do you WANT?
I'm a car driver, so should be easy, just getting used to differentcontrols, right?


NO!

It is true there are SOME 'transferable' skills from car driving toriding a motorbike. Yes, you know many of the road conventions, you havesome idea of what a clutch does and 'stuff'. But sorry, a LOT of stuff youdo in a car can be UNHELPFUL.

Teaching car drivers to ride motorbikes, I have been beleaguered with thesame 'problems' over and over again. And the very FIRST one, is that the cardriving student really DO think that they know it all already, and its GOINGto be 'Easy'. Unresponsive to learning, they ignore advice, question advice,and in the worse cases it can deteriorate into a battle, where they convincethemselves that the instructor is an 'idiot' and that not ONLY do they knowit all already, they know BETTER than the instructor.

If you approach Motorcycle training with ANY such pre-conceptions, itWILL make learning harder for you, NOT easier. Thinking you know stuff, youwill not pay attention when you think you are being told stuff you alreadyknow and WILL 'miss' the vital differences, and you will not 'engage' andwill miss opportunities to ask questions, and learn more.

But even with the right attitude, some of the engrained 'habits' ofdriving a car will take a LOT of breaking.

Humorously, on the CBT play-ground, car driving students can go greatguns. Knowing what a clutch is, having some empathy for the throttle, theywill seem to pick things up pretty quickly. Then come the after-noon, we goout for the on-road element, and ride OFF the artificial environment of theplay-ground, and at the very first junction, on real roads.... they fallover. JUST literally STOP and fall over!

Reason is, that while they are on the simulated and 'unusual' environmentof the play-ground its all 'new' and they are learning, and they do as theyare told, because they have nothing else suggesting what they should do.

But as SOON as they are on a real road, with houses, white lines,road-signs, parked cars, and the usual furniture of the 'road' they are usedto, the ingrained 'instinct' of driving a car 'kicks in; and at that firstjunction, they STOP, and sit there, just like they would in a car.... I evenhad ONE student once reach down to put the hand-brake on before he toppled!

Because they have forgotten to put their foot down!

Most remember.... eventually... a few before bits of bike touch tarmac,but not all, and its something we can laugh about.

BUT, That is how ENGRAINED these 'reflexes' can be.

The complete newbie, has no such engrained reflexes, and learning 'fresh'has a much easier time, getting to grips with what they have to do, anddoing it, consistently.

Here, on road training, the fresh newbie who is likely to have struggledon the play-ground CAN start to shine, while the Car-Driver REALLY starts tostruggle.

For the instructor its often very frustrating, because the faults arerepetitive. Common ones are remembering to cancel indicators. Bikes don'thave self cancelling switches, rider HAS to positively switch them off aftera manoeuvre. And we are constantly having to remind Car-Driving students.

Observations are another. In a car, surrounded by metal, drivers usemirrors, they rarely have to move their head and look to the side or behindthem. On a bike we HAVE to make a lot MORE observations, and more of themNOT in the mirrors.

Teaching car drivers to ride; "Indicators!" and "Observations!" arereminders constantly worn out over the radio reminding the student to dostuff they have been thought and reminded a hundred times, while they BREAKthose car-driving habits.

Other one is braking, engine braking and using the engine revs. Carsdon't often have engines that rev as highly as motorbike engines.Particularly diesel cars and small motorbikes. The also don't make the samenoises.

A lot of work is done in modern car design to make car cabin's 'quiet',and some I actually have to look at the rev-counter to know the engine iseven running! Not so on a bike. They are often noisier to begin with becausethey are air-cooled and don't have a sound damping water-jacket around them,but then they don't have the metal box and car-board to baffle more sound.So you get it directly.

Then, little motorbike engine, even a fairly low-tuned commuter willprobably rev to around 10-11ooo rpm. THAT can sound pretty tortured tosome-one used to a Diesel engine that has a governor that limits the revs atmaybe 4,500rpm.

But also, way that the engine responds, the way that power increases withrevs, to get at the limited power of a small motorbike engine you HAVE torev them. You need almost ALL of a 125 commuters 10bhp to go 65mph, and itONLY has that power pretty much at peak revs.

If you 'short shift' changing up at maybe 5,000rpm, as MANY car driverswill, they will get to top gear before they are doing 40mph, but with onlymaybe 6bhp available at the lowly revs the engine is turning at that speed,it WONT accelerate and go any faster after.

Getting used to 'thrashing' a little engine to get at and USE the powerand do speeds needed can again, be a struggle for car-drivers, who find ithard to change and get to grips with the way the engine sounds and pulls.

SO, if you THINK its going to be ANY easier, then you are probably NOTgoing to find it easy, and more than likely could end up NOT learning andgetting frustrated by your 'idiot' instructor 'nagging' the whole time, tolook over your shoulder and turn your indicators off, and trying to get youto BRAKE your bikes engine!

If approach learning to ride with an open mind, and DON'T presume to relyon pre-existing knowledge, you are likely to find it 'easier', but maybeNOT as 'easy' as a complete beginner.

Those 'Driver-Reflexes' can be a bitch to break.

We ALL learn differently, we all have pre-existing knowledge anddifferent aptitudes. Having Driving Skills, changes what you need to learn,and how, and helps and it hinders. Its going to be no easier because of it,just different.
I've been riding off-road for years, going to be a walk in the park, isn'tit?
NO!

See above. What we know before we start learning to ride on the road,makes it DIFFERENT. We cant RELY on it making anything any easier.

When I first started riding on the road, I had had maybe seven years ormore dirt experience. I grew up on a farm, so I would come in from schooland rather than sit and watch Kids TV, I'd go out and muck about on thebike. I had been competing in School boy trials, and riding along see-saws,over scrap cars, and up the sides of hills where mountain goats would fearto tread. At the age of 13, I was riding a 350 Suzuki and tail sliding itaround a scramble-track, steering almost entirely on the throttle withouteither wheel actually going in the direction it was pointing.

Doing the cones of my 'Part 1' test? Be a doddle, wont it! Actually IFAILED... they don't like you standing up, apparently during a motorbiketest, and they prefer BOTH wheels kept on the floor....

Again, you have some pre-existing transferable skills, and on CBT, youought to more than familiar with the basic machine controls and earlymanoeuvres.

But once up to road riding, you have little or no advantage, and like acar driver quite a few disadvantages. Riding off-road, is very focussed, youare intent on the terrain ahead of you, picking a path across it, andmachine control is almost innate, and devolved to reflex.

On the road, you have to concentrate on and think about a lot more thingssimultaneously, and be co-ordinated. When I started road riding I wasforever fumbling the indicators and pressing the horn, because these werecontrols I had never had to use before. From trials, my observation waspretty good, but in trials you are looking at 30 yards of 'section' andconcentrating on a patch of terrain five feet in front of the front wheel. Ihad to learn to shift this focus a LOT further up the road, and widen what Iwas looking at or for, and PREDICT an awful lot more, as in trials, treesdon't tend to move very much.... traffic does!

And one of the more difficult habits I had to 'break' was looking at myfront wheel, and learning to TRUST it was going where I wanted, withoutlooking at it.

Off-Road riding does tend to develop some very good innate 'reflex'machine control, and this can be an advantage, but at a level that is reallyNOT all that important for starting out, learning to ride on the road, andpassing tests.

I found after moving up to 'Big-Bikes'. riding buddies could get quiteperturbed by how I would 'ride through' the bike breaking traction orweaving, wobbling or bouncing about on rougher roads, and remark on it whenwe stopped. And often they would think I was bull-shitting when I didn'tknow when or where they were talking about; they could not imagine that Ididn't KNOW when the bike was to them, 'skidding'.... but I honestly didn't;couple of decades dirt riding, and reflexes just automatically 'deal withit'.

THIS is something to be aware of. Great to have that degree of innatecontrol, and be able to contend and correct a slide or buck on tarmacwithout making a drama out of it.... but also VERY easy to ride literally'on the ragged edge' and NOT even realise, and at some point, you wont pullit back.

On dirt, over cook it? Well, it'll hurt... had too many tumbles to denyit, but for the most part we get up and walk away from them, and nurse a fewbruises. Breaking bones is not unheard of, but necks not so often. YouCANNOT afford to be so 'blase' on tarmac, even less, PUBLIC tarmac.

Dirt riding is a WONDERFUL confidence builder for a road-rider; butaccidents happen when confidence outstrips competence, and that innate'machine control' is a dangerous bit of confidence to have too much off!

As with car drivers; its no 'easier', its just 'different' learning thatwill need to be done, and there are almost as many drawbacks to havingdirt-experience or car experience as advantages.
What is 'DAS'?


DAS is the Direct Access Scheme. Direct Access, is often thought to be a'Course' you do instead of the tests. Many Schools advertise these courses, andthey can vary in price from a few hundred pounds to a few thousands. Usuallyconducted over maybe only a few days, these are what is known as 'Intensive' DAScourses. And they are FRAUGHT with perils! But I will come back to that, andexplain DAS.

DAS is TWO rules within the testing processes described above. Basically, ifyou are old enough, 24 years or older, (It was 21 until January 2013, when newEEDirective rules came into force) you can get a full, unrestricted A-Group licence takingthe 'Practical' motorcycle tests on an eligible DAS bike. AND in order topractice for those tests, you may, ONLY under supervision of qualified &approved instructor, ride such a machine on the road during lessons.

What DAS is NOT:

• It is NOT a licence.
• It is NOT a 'Course'
• Doing a DAS 'Course' DOES NOT guarantee a licence at the end of it

You DO NOT have to do a DAS course to get a motorbike licence. You CERTAINLYdon't have to take an 'Intensive' DAS course to get a licence. Doing a Course is only'Training', you STILL have to do the EXACT same TESTS as some-one testing on amoped, or a lightweight bike. You do NOT have to make a choice between 'gettinga 125' and 'Doing-DAS' the two are NOT exclusive.

Two Rules:

• you may PRACTICE for tests on a 'non' Learner-Legal' motorcycle IFsupervised by a DAS qualified Instructor.
• you MAY take tests on eligible 'big' bike.

No more, no less.

(Entirely possible to qualify under DAS rules, training up and doing 90% ofyour practice on a 125, and, provided you can legally get a 'big-bike' to thetest centre and provided you can get insurance to ride it, take the tests underDAS on it!)
'Intensive DAS Courses' What's the score?


OK, well, straight away, Rushing is a FAST way to get hurt riding amotorcycle, and modern 'Intensive DAS' courses, more often are conceivedto pander to the impatient, looking for 'Quick-Thrills'. There's good reasonthese are often called 'Crash-Courses'!

HIGHEST DEATH RATE ON THE ROAD, is amongst newly DAS QualifiedRiders. Frequently, having driven a car for over ten years, and believingthat that experience, and three days, maybe fifteen hours saddle time, probablyless than 500 miles riding a motorbike, with the guiding voice of an instructortelling them what to do through an ear-piece, prepares them to jump onto a 600or 1000cc sports-bike, that would be hard for an experienced and expert rider toappreciate.

Intensive DAS qualified riders, come out of their three, four or five daycourse, often NO better prepared for the roads, than a CBT Newbie. I call themwun-week-wunders. And as often as not they are a danger to themselves, andevery-one around them.

The CBT L-Plater; has one day of VERY basic training in preparation for theroads; but they are limited to a low-powered, light weight machine, and withpassenger and motorway restrictions, that at least limit how quick they can getinto trouble. But the wun-week-wunder is often hardly any more prepared, yet canget straight onto a bike that can get them into an AWFUL lot of trouble AWFULLYfast!

Big problem of a 'Crash-Course', you have a LOT to learn, and only a VERYshort time to learn it, and not a lot of time to practice any of it; so'Cramming', to get through the test, which is the main object of the courses,the course wont dwell very long on points of technique, or things that aren'tessential for tests, and an awful lot will be covered almost by 'rote' without alot of explanation for the whys and where-fors of what you are taught to do.

So, the DAS Newbie, is likely to come out of their course EITHER convincedthat riding a motorbike is 'easy' and having done the course and got thelicence, THAT is all there is to it, they know it all, OR they get out on theroads on their own, and bereft of those instructions whispered in their ear,have a mind-meltdown, unable to remember half of what they were taught on thecourse, or worse, unable to make sense of the half they can remember!

And you REALLY don't get a lot of training for your money on a DAS course.Prices vary hugely, but there is a lot to be packed into a DAS course.

To go from a completely standing start, during the course you HAVE tocomplete CBT before they can take you out on the road. Having done that, theyneed to repeat a lot of that, getting you familiar and comfortable and doing theCBT manoeuvres on the 'DAS-Bike'. a 'full' CBT is an eight hour course for afast learner; many have to 'repeat' and come back for a second days training.Yet in a DAS-Crash-Course, the CBT & 'DAS conversion lessons will often becompressed into one day, to try and get you in the saddle on the big-bike assoon as possible. Then you are into the Road-Training.

I taught 10 week, 125 Test-Courses.. Each lesson approximately two and a halfhours long. That's about twenty five hours of actual 'teaching'. But afterlesson, candidate goes home. They can practice what has been covered in thelesson to their hearts content, on their own time, on their own bike. Maybeusing the bike to go to and from work, or go on longer ride-outs; they haveplenty of opportunity to gain a wider range of experience, and make 'sense' ofwhat they are taught 'in' lessons, which offered in small, bite-sized chunks,can be assimilated and made sense of, with ALL that practice to be able to'nail' points of technique. Its a VERY good way to learn.

On an intensive DAS course; that course is your ONLY ride-time. You have tocram all of your 'practice' into the time you have with the instructor watchingyou, fulfilling the legal requirement of supervision that lets you be on thatbike, on the road. And THAT is probably the BIGGEST part of what you are payingfor. An instructor and possibly hire of the DAS-Bike, JUST to let you practiceriding.

As a rough reckoner. 1/3 teach-time, 2/3 ride-time, a 1:2 ratio. On125-Training, We'd ride for ten or fifteen minutes, then have a five minute'review' of what we'd done. During ride-time, as the instructor, I would bewatching to see the student do what they were told, or see what they did ontheir own aptitude. Then during the review, tell them what they did good, whatthe did wrong, what they did bad, and what they need to work on & practice. Andas they can go away and practice on their own time... onto the next exercise.During a DAS course, we would have to do that practice there and then.

Courses I taught were 10 weeks, or 20-25hours. And that is ALL Teach &Training time. If you have a 3-Day DAS course, you would struggle to get 8 hoursa day of instructor time out of that. So you are not going to get the samequantity of imparted information. EVEN if, 'Crammed' you could take it all inTHAT fast. Take out a 'Day' of that course to do CBT & DAS familiarisation, youare down to 16 hours of practical instruction. Take out another day for thetests? You are down to ONE DAY, 8hrs of actual useful 'teaching' into which youhave to cram three times the 'learning' of a traditional course AND all thepractice a student might do outside.

SOMETHING has to 'give' to get a student from a standing start to teststandard in such a short space of time. It can get a student through tests andput a licence in their pocket, but it is VERY 'scant' preparation for riding abig bike.

And it is EXPENSIVE.

A Typical 3-Day DAS course would cost around £1000. There are plenty ofpeople advertising courses cheaper, but bear with me.

For that you are renting, typically, a 500cc motorcycle for three days.Checking commercial hire companies, that's worth about £50 a day. That's £150 ofyour course fee straight away. Looking at commercial hire companies chargesthough, there's about an extra £10 a day supplemental insurance charge; andthat's presuming a qualified rider. School has to pay a 'loaded' rate, any-oneriding that bike is going to be a learner. So, £200 of your £1000, course cost'reasonably' just to put the bike under your bum for it.

You then have to gain your CBT Certificate. I have lost track of DSA chargesfor these. When you pay for a CBT course, the DSA charge the school for thecertificate and for the schools own approvals. Of a £75 CBT course (without bikehire) I think about £30 goes straight on DSA charges. And at the end you havethe tests themselves. DSA charge £15.50 for a Mod 1 Test, £75 for a Mod 2. IFyour course includes CBT & Tests, over £120 is DSA charges. So, bike and fees,1/3 of your £1000 course cost.

So, How much is your instructor worth? Chap is a 'professional'; is he worthas much as a plumber? What's their hourly rate? £30 an hour? So, 8 hours, £240 aday.... err HANG ON.... £1000 course, £200 for the bike, £120 for the DSAcharges, £720 for Instructor time.... That dont ad up!

No, it doesn't. Motorcycle Instruction is a HUGELY under valued occupation.And even expensive course costs often don't give very much 'margin' for a schoolto cover costs and overheads, and pay an instructor a living wage, given theoverheads of the instructors bike, his DSA approvals and those of the school,and then the bike hire they offer.

When looking at DAS courses, you REALLY need to check the small-print anddetails to see what you are getting for your money.

Many 'Cheap' courses, you find don't cover the CBT, they don't include theDSA Test Fees, and the school may NOT even include bike hire or insurance in theadvertised course price.

I have seen 3-Day DAS courses advertised for as little as £360, but when youdig into the detail' you find that the course doesn't include CBT or DASconversion, nor the DSA tests at the end, nor does it include bike hire, orinsurance; When you total it up, that 'Cheap' 3-day course, has become a fiveday course, costing nearer £2000.

I have seen other courses, which are 'all inclusive' advertised for maybe£600. Slightly less 'honest', they suggest that this includes the CBT & Testfees, as well as bike hire. BUT, the catch is that once you have booked thecourse, KNOWING that its a hugely ambitious remit to train some-one to teststandard in such a short space of time, they will either 'stretch' the course,suggesting that the candidate isn't ready for test, and 'extra days' turn out tonot have the discounted 'offer-price'. Or the school don't offer extra days, andif you don't pass tests first time round, you have to book an entire repeatcourse.

FAILING DAS can get VERY VERY expensive. And as said. The tests areadministered by the DSA not the School, there is NO guarantee they will pass you.

A LOT of people are sold DAS courses convinced that because they are over 24years old they HAVE to do DAS, or that some-how its a 'waste of time' trainingon a 125 and taking the 125 tests, because you don't get the same licence. ORnaively believe that a DAS course will pay for itself, because they wont have tobuy a 125.

IF you have been on the road, and learned to ride a 125 on L-Plates, and havemaybe got two years RECENT experience under your belt, then an intensive DAScourse MAY be a useful tool to get a licence. Its a little bit of 'Brushing Up'and getting a few test tips, and some familiarisation of the bigger bike. Andgets you the unrestricted licence. BUT it costs, and IF you had that experience,you could probably get as MUCH 'Brushing Up' doing maybe just half a daystraining on your 125 and pass tests on that.

If you are coming in 'Cold'; having never ridden before, or ridden a 'bit'maybe many years ago, or in a different country. Well, best not to rely on anypre-existing knowledge. Three, even FIVE days of DAS-Crash-Course? Its NOT a lotto cover everything you need to, even JUST to pass tests, let alone prepare youfor the kind of bikes you would be qualified to ride straight away. And it isvery expensive. If you DON'T pick it up straight away and progress quickly, thosecosts will rapidly start escalating. Fail tests? They will escalate a HECK of alot more.

Remember, Rushing is a FAST way to get hurt on a motorbike. If you knowNOTHING, then 'Time on a tiddler is Rarely Wasted' (see [url=0_Lo_040_Features_036_1st_Bike_40_What_is_Learn_Leg.htm#125s,_Are_they_worth_it]125's, Are they worth it?[/url]). Idea that an Expensive DAScourse saves 'wasting' money on a 125 is often fools economy.

125's hold their value well. If you buy one, you can usually sell on within ayear for pretty much what you paid for it. Only costs you the Petrol &insurance, basically. THAT can be a LOT less than the hire fees for a DAS bikeon a 3-Day course. And you can get as MUCH 'Practice' in on it as you like,working at your OWN rate, NOT having to pay to have an instructor do no morethan watch you wobble, fulfilling legal requirement to supervise while you areon a DAS Bike.

It's cheap, its fun, and it takes away an AWFUL lot of the 'stress' of'cramming' for the tests and taking it all in in one go. 125's are very good athelping new riders lay down a really good foundation skill-set of machinecontrol, and you can do 90% of your learning on one, and IF you want to 'do-DAS'nothing stopping you. JUST because you have bought a 125 and used it maybe forsome training, and practice, there is NOTHING that says you HAVE to take yourtests on it.

You can STILL do an intensive DAS course after, and be MUCH more likely notto struggle on it, and more likely to pass tests. And you may not even need afull course. Just a conversion lesson, and maybe a familiarisation 'lesson' justbefore the tests themselves.

Book a DAS course straight off, though, very easy to spend the money thatmight have bought you a 125 and at the end of it, have neither bike, nor licencenor money.

DAS is NOT inherently evil; BUT, 'Intensive-DAS-Crash-Courses' areFRAUGHTwith danger. CAN be useful, but you have to know what you are getting into anduse them right and use them to your advantage, NOT your detriment.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[M.C]

Holy $hit its finally happened, you've become Tef'

Hoping that's a copy & paste from his site

[Joelarley]

[NJD]

[Snop Doog]

[Rogerborg]

[Andy_Pagin]

Feking 'ell, looks like Teff's got some competition
____________________
They're coming to take me away, ho-ho, hee-hee, ha-haaa, hey-hey,
the men in white coats are coming to take me away.
Yamaha Vity -> YBR125 -> FZS600 Fazer -> FZ1-S Fazer

[NJD]

I think I scrolled form the bottom of this post to the top to fast, my browser bugged out and wouldn't go past a certain point of Borg's post, even teff's never managed that.

[Rogerborg]

Do you seriously think I wrote that? I couldn't even read it.

https://teflonmike.craywiki.co.uk/0_Lo_040_Features_036_1st_Bike_20_How2_Get_Licence.htm#What_Training_do_I_need

Just saving Mike the trouble of writing it all out again from scratch.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike