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Can the plod seize a bike that is on finance?

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Deso
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PostPosted: 09:00 - 23 Jan 2016    Post subject: Can the plod seize a bike that is on finance? Reply with quote
After reading about the guy that got 2 years for filming his own twatishness, it got me thinking about this:

Can the plod seize a bike that is on finance?

I can't find the answer anywhere and wondered about the implications of them either flogging or crushing a bike that is not your property?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:20 - 23 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
For unlicensed, uninsured, or falsified documents, sure. Ownership is irrelevant, all that matters it that the person doing the naughtiness was "driving" the vehicle.

There's a cromulent question about what powers the rozzers used to seize cam-man's bike. Belief of one of the above conditions, or the hilarious contention that the bike itself constitutes evidence of the crimes of which the rider is accused.

Release fees are payable by "the registered keeper, owner or driver", whichever one wants it back.

I guess you could stop making payments and wish the finance company the best of luck in getting their bike back.
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yen_powell
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PostPosted: 10:08 - 23 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
For unlicensed, uninsured, or falsified documents, sure. Ownership is irrelevant, all that matters it that the person doing the naughtiness was "driving" the vehicle.

There's a cromulent question about what powers the rozzers used to seize cam-man's bike. Belief of one of the above conditions, or the hilarious contention that the bike itself constitutes evidence of the crimes of which the rider is accused.

Release fees are payable by "the registered keeper, owner or driver", whichever one wants it back.

I guess you could stop making payments and wish the finance company the best of luck in getting their bike back.
I've just had to look up the word cromulent. Thank you for making me feel a bit of a thickie.

(Turns out it's nothing to do with Conan the Barbarian at all)
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 11:18 - 23 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
yen_powell wrote:
I've just had to look up the word cromulent. Thank you for making me feel a bit of a thickie.


I had to once you said you had. Nothing to do with Cromwell either.
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The Shaggy D.A.
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PostPosted: 11:28 - 23 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
I had to look it up too. I consider my vocabulary embiggend.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 11:43 - 23 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
the hilarious contention that the bike itself constitutes evidence of the crimes of which the rider is accused.


If memory serves, it was this. They took his bike gear and all his computer stuff too as "evidence".
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:59 - 23 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
NC30? That's my recollection. Seems like punishment to me, unless they've got some way of making the bike confess what it's been up to[*].

The instant case is this one, where it's implied that the bike was seized at the time that he was stopped, with no other reason given than "wow such dangerous". That's not grounds to seize, at least not lawfully.

But...

[*] With bikes (all vehicles, really) increasingly coming with spychips built in, the excuse for seizing the vehicle itself as evidence is becoming less daft.

As always, the reality is that Dibble is going to do what Dibble is going to do. Even if he gets it wrong, the costs of doing so aren't coming out of his pocket.
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 14:02 - 23 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:


The instant case is this one, where it's implied that the bike was seized at the time that he was stopped, with no other reason given than "wow such dangerous". That's not grounds to seize, at least not lawfully.



https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/30/section/59

Quote:

(1)Where a constable in uniform has reasonable grounds for believing that a motor vehicle is being used on any occasion in a manner which—

(a)contravenes section 3 or 34 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52) (careless and inconsiderate driving and prohibition of off-road driving), and

(b)is causing, or is likely to cause, alarm, distress or annoyance to members of the public,


I'd suggest pulling a wheelie and riding at 80 in a 50 in sight of coppers was enough for a reasonable belief...


Quote:
(3)Those powers are—

(a)power, if the motor vehicle is moving, to order the person driving it to stop the vehicle;

(b)power to seize and remove the motor vehicle;

(c)power, for the purposes of exercising a power falling within paragraph (a) or (b), to enter any premises on which he has reasonable grounds for believing the motor vehicle to be;

(d)power to use reasonable force, if necessary, in the exercise of any power conferred by any of paragraphs to (a) to (c).



Should cover that one...
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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 18:42 - 23 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Generally speaking 'on finance' translates to you having taken out a loan for the purpose of buying the bike. You have to pay back the loan regardless of what happens to the bike. I can't see what difference it'd make to plod how you found the money to buy it in the first place.
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 19:04 - 23 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Andy_Pagin wrote:
Generally speaking 'on finance' translates to you having taken out a loan for the purpose of buying the bike. You have to pay back the loan regardless of what happens to the bike. I can't see what difference it'd make to plod how you found the money to buy it in the first place.


..because legally you don't own the bike until you've made the last payment. I do, of course, mean if you used dealer finance. If you took out a loan, walked into a dealer and bought one, that's different

In Holland (and I think lots of other EU countries) they can seize your car (or motorcycle) if you speed excessively - if it's not your car (or motorcycle) they can't do it as they would be punishing someone else for a crime they did not commit. This happened to my boss once, they couldn't take the car because it belonged to the company. He did get a massive fine though.
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Jmoan
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PostPosted: 21:51 - 23 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Another question along similar lines is that if a bike is taken by the police then handed to an impounding yard which then disposes of it and the time limits to get the vehicle back are fairly short I think.
What is the legality of that? Presumably there's no hearing or trial before hand.
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talkToTheHat
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PostPosted: 01:03 - 24 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
...likely to...annoy members of the public...


So there is a legal power to sieze just about anything then becasue 9/10 daily mail readers likely consider it annoying, and probably alarming and distressing too.
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 01:53 - 24 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
talkToTheHat wrote:
...likely to...annoy members of the public...


So there is a legal power to sieze just about anything then becasue 9/10 daily mail readers likely consider it annoying, and probably alarming and distressing too.


Yes. To make it worse, there's no formal appeals process. You can write to the Chief Constable and make a complaint and ask them to overturn it, but you don't get a day in court to defend yourself.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 02:41 - 24 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
ScaredyCat wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:


The instant case is this one, where it's implied that the bike was seized at the time that he was stopped, with no other reason given than "wow such dangerous". That's not grounds to seize, at least not lawfully.



https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/30/section/59

Quote:

(1)Where a constable in uniform has reasonable grounds for believing that a motor vehicle is being used on any occasion in a manner which—

(a)contravenes section 3 or 34 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52) (careless and inconsiderate driving and prohibition of off-road driving), and

(b)is causing, or is likely to cause, alarm, distress or annoyance to members of the public,


I'd suggest pulling a wheelie and riding at 80 in a 50 in sight of coppers was enough for a reasonable belief...


Quote:
(3)Those powers are—

(a)power, if the motor vehicle is moving, to order the person driving it to stop the vehicle;

(b)power to seize and remove the motor vehicle;

(c)power, for the purposes of exercising a power falling within paragraph (a) or (b), to enter any premises on which he has reasonable grounds for believing the motor vehicle to be;

(d)power to use reasonable force, if necessary, in the exercise of any power conferred by any of paragraphs to (a) to (c).



Should cover that one...


I'm pretty sure a written warning has to have been issued prior to exercising section 59 powers? Not a 1-stop shop?
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 04:20 - 24 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
I'm pretty sure a written warning has to have been issued prior to exercising section 59 powers? Not a 1-stop shop?


I thought so too.

However, I do remember a lengthy thread on here analysing whether an issued Section 59 stayed with a vehicle after it was sold but can't remember what conclusion was reached. If it does stay with the vehicle then toerag owner #2 could well find himself 'sans wheels' for the first time he gets caught.
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iooi
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PostPosted: 10:18 - 24 Jan 2016    Post subject: Re: Can the plod seize a bike that is on finance? Reply with quote
Deso wrote:

Can the plod seize a bike that is on finance?

I can't find the answer anywhere and wondered about the implications of them either flogging or crushing a bike that is not your property?


Since when has finance meant you don't own the bike... Just a massive amount of money to pay back.
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Deso
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PostPosted: 10:47 - 24 Jan 2016    Post subject: Re: Can the plod seize a bike that is on finance? Reply with quote
iooi wrote:
Deso wrote:

Can the plod seize a bike that is on finance?

I can't find the answer anywhere and wondered about the implications of them either flogging or crushing a bike that is not your property?


Since when has finance meant you don't own the bike... Just a massive amount of money to pay back.


It's not your property until you have made all payments. That's how I understand it.
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 11:01 - 24 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:


I'm pretty sure a written warning has to have been issued prior to exercising section 59 powers? Not a 1-stop shop?


Quote:
(5)Subsection (4) does not require a warning to be given by a constable on any occasion on which he would otherwise have the power to seize a motor vehicle under this section if—

(a)the circumstances make it impracticable for him to give the warning;

(b)the constable has already on that occasion given a warning under that subsection in respect of any use of that motor vehicle or of another motor vehicle by that person or any other person;

(c)the constable has reasonable grounds for believing that such a warning has been given on that occasion otherwise than by him; or

(d)the constable has reasonable grounds for believing that the person whose use of that motor vehicle on that occasion would justify the seizure is a person to whom a warning under that subsection has been given (whether or not by that constable or in respect the same vehicle or the same or a similar use) on a previous occasion in the previous twelve months.


Section 5a seems wooly enough...
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:55 - 24 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Why would it be impracticable? There's no "...unless it's totes SRS" clause.

PRA 2002 S59 wrote:
(4) A constable shall not seize a motor vehicle in the exercise of the powers conferred on him by this section unless—

(a) he has warned the person appearing to him to be the person whose use falls within subsection (1) that he will seize it, if that use continues or is repeated; and

(b) it appears to him that the use has continued or been repeated after the the warning.

S59 appears to be commonly abused, but it says what it says. No seize-on-the-spot.

I'm rather glad that it doesn't apply in Scootchland.
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iooi
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PostPosted: 13:53 - 24 Jan 2016    Post subject: Re: Can the plod seize a bike that is on finance? Reply with quote
Deso wrote:


It's not your property until you have made all payments. That's how I understand it.


That's Hire Purchase. Not Finance.

Finance these days is the deals where you walk into a dealer and use the likes of Black Horse to fund you new bike. They lend you the money and you pay them back.

Don't see much hire purchase these days.

Personal Contract Purchase or PCP financing deals is basically a car loan but you wont pay the full value of the car but wont own the car at the end of the deal.
Something totally different.

I would guess with that they would treat it the same as if you had a accident and it was written off.
ie. You will be liable for any shortfall.
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 14:11 - 24 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Why would it be impracticable?


Because he's still moving. First time wheelie, second 80 in a 50. Two events not one. Impractical to wait until he's stopped because kittens.
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DJP
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PostPosted: 18:12 - 24 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
...As always, the reality is that Dibble is going to do what Dibble is going to do. Even if he gets it wrong, the costs of doing so aren't coming out of his pocket.


Is the salient point.

But even if it were not so, it would be daft if someone could side-step the law just because they've got a loan on the bike.

Why, it'd be like giving diplomatic immunity to peasants. Twisted Evil
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:46 - 24 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
ScaredyCat wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
Why would it be impracticable?

Because he's still moving. First time wheelie, second 80 in a 50. Two events not one. Impractical to wait until he's stopped because kittens.

How about we leave making silly arguments in order to abuse the clear intent of the law to Dibble? He doesn't really need any help.
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Jmoan
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PostPosted: 21:12 - 24 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:


I'm rather glad that it doesn't apply in Scootchland.


Unfortunately it does. It's just been hidden under Antisocial Behaviour etc. (Scotland) Act 2004 section 126.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:30 - 24 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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