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smegballs
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PostPosted: 08:16 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Ending Poverty Reply with quote
I saw some statement on FB this morning:

Quote:
The world’s 100 richest people earned a stunning total of $240 billion in 2012 – enough money to end extreme poverty worldwide four times over


But what does it actually mean?

Say we built a house for everyone in Africa and bought enough food for everyone to have a nutritious diet for 5 years. Then what? Without massive infrastructure and industrial investment, what happens after the 5 years are up?

Is it even logistically possible? How would said aid be distributed properly in the way it is intended? History shows that often local gangs will seize food aid, and sell it off to locals at extortionate prices?

Would it do more harm to existing businesses and farms etc if all of a sudden the western world just floods a country with loads of food and goods? Again history shows that flooding countries with food aid tends to bankrupt local farmers.

Is it even the west's place to do such a thing? Seems quite "white mans burden" to me, the idea that we need to roll in and provide 'civilisation' to the 'savages' that struggle to run a modern country.

Is said comment just a cheap throwaway comment on "muh rich people"?
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 08:28 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Ste
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PostPosted: 08:34 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
smegballs wrote:
Say we built a house for everyone in Africa and bought enough food for everyone to have a nutritious diet for 5 years. Then what?

Within less than five years, most of the people will have trashed their houses and swapped their nutritious food for copious quantities of drugs and alcohol.

The strangest part is that some how, once the five years are up the poor will actually be poorer than they were before! Very Happy Thumbs Up
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 09:11 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Buying poverty away is dumb.

It's the same as the whole "man in Africa earns less than $2 a day" argument. It completely overlooks vast swathes of real world economics and social structure.

At best, that '$240 billion' argument could be used as a loose example for demonstrating global inequality, because clearly a lot of people don't have that much of a resource share, but it really doesn't get anywhere near to the root of the problem.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:13 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Re: Ending Poverty Reply with quote
smegballs wrote:
I saw some statement on FB this morning:

Quote:
The world’s 100 richest people earned a stunning total of $240 billion in 2012 – enough money to end extreme poverty worldwide four times over

But what does it actually mean?

That you shouldn't get your news from Facebook.

"Money" doesn't end poverty. At those levels of "wealth", it's mostly just number shuffling. You can't just go out and buy a billion dollars of anything practical. If you give money to everyone in Elbonia - and let's pretend that you could distribute it equally rather than enriching Dear Leader - you just create instant local inflation. There's not any more stuff there, all you're doing is making the existing stuff cost more.

OK, the Elbonians could spend it on importing food and tools and medicine, but that still doesn't magically create new raw resources or farmland or production facilities, it just incentivises their production until either the Elbonians have spent all the free money or they've devalued their currency.

The solution to poverty is for poor people to produce their own way out of it. Instead of us throwing endless amounts of rope down a hole, they need to build a ladder and climb out.
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 09:21 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Re: Ending Poverty Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
"Money" doesn't end poverty.


Depends on whether you are trying to help the poor or eliminate them.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:24 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Re: Ending Poverty Reply with quote
ScaredyCat wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
"Money" doesn't end poverty.

Depends on whether you are trying to help the poor or eliminate them.

I'd settle for them suffering in silence.
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: 09:59 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
In my opinion, the best account of humanity changing for the better was written in 1906... "In the days of the comet" by H G Wells. The basic jist is that it's not the redistribution of wealth that fixes the problem, but a complete shift in how humans behave. The "rich" didn't realise before why the poor hated them, instead viewing the poor as work shy and worthless. The "poor" spent too much time hating the rich and plotting against them through unions and strike action. When everyone works together, the world becomes a much better place.

Copied from Wikipedia wrote:
Humanity is "exalted" when a comet causes "the nitrogen of the air, the old azote," to "change out of itself" and become "a respirable gas, differing indeed from oxygen, but helping and sustaining its action, a bath of strength and healing for nerve and brain." The result: "The great Change has come for evermore, happiness and beauty are our atmosphere, there is peace on earth and good will to all men.


Of course, without the global spread of the green vapours, nothing will change. I guess thats the point. Unless you wipe out humanity, you'll never solve its problems.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 10:04 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
I doubt throwing money at Africa will make a blind bit of difference, it hasn't in the past and wont in the future.

It's war problems are tribal, much like the Middle East. Africa's main problem though, is that the population is constantly trying to outgrow the available finite resources such as water and fertile land.

If you're family is starting to death, having another 7 kids wont help.


Though partly true, you could argue their tribal war problems are just a symptom of the ongoing poverty.

It might actually have something to do with this:

https://i.imgur.com/AK6OEzb.png

Consider that Germany is one of the top coffee exporters in the world, without even growing any, and you can start to imagine how this probably impacts the places it gets its coffee from. Why are so many central African nations not selling their own coffee?

This is a really interesting read about poverty myths - https://www.gatesfoundation.org/Who-We-Are/Resources-and-Media/Annual-Letters-List/Annual-Letter-2014

One thing I do wonder is, why don't these poor nations just stick two fingers up to the plundering western nations, take their resources back into state control and sell from home turf, instead of giving away the basic goods at rock bottom prices only for richer nations to put a mark-up on and sell it back?

Here's an interesting documentary by John Pilger - The New Rulers of the World - in which he focuses on the case of Indonesia, which was a perfectly happy, self-sustained little country until one of their new political leaders decided it was time to go global, trade with the planet and, inevitably, let the world bank and IMF come to play. I forget the ins and outs of it all but the end result was total destruction of workers rights, slashing of wages, riots, poverty and I think even a genocide. He interviews some World Bank and IMF guys who seemed to be eerily aware of everything their meddling caused.

Last edited by Lord Percy on 10:13 - 16 Feb 2016; edited 4 times in total
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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 10:07 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Re: Ending Poverty Reply with quote
smegballs wrote:
I saw some statement on FB this morning:

Quote:
The world’s 100 richest people earned a stunning total of $240 billion in 2012 – enough money to end extreme poverty worldwide four times over


But what does it actually mean?

I guess it means if there are a billion people "in poverty" globally, you can "solve" it by giving them all 240 bucks each.

Or just cut out the middleman and give them all a 2nd hand iPhone.
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nowhere.elysium
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PostPosted: 10:09 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
One thing I do wonder is, why don't these poor nations just stick two fingers up to the plundering western nations, take their resources back into state control and sell from home turf, instead of giving away the basic goods at rock bottom prices only for richer nations to put a mark-up on and sell it back?
Working rather well for Zimbabwe, isn't it?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:38 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
why don't these poor nations just [...]

Because they're not nations. They're (since we're generalising) a bunch of sick, uneducated and essentially mediaeval villagers and urban jungle inhabitants ruled over by despots and warlords who grow rich from stealing aid and creaming trade while presiding over cultures of "I'm all right, Jaakko" graft and corruption from the very top to the very bottom.

Sending money into Africa whether it's aid or even trade that's heavily "regulated" (i.e. stolen) by the State is and will remain pointless until Africans start hanging their leaders from lampposts.

Of course, first they'll have to build some lampposts.

References:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-33108716

https://www.nation.co.ke/lifestyle/DN2/Stop-aid-it-is-killing-Africa-The-economics-of-donations/-/957860/2894138/-/n305oez/-/index.html
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 14:20 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:


A lovely romantic socialist notion, with one major flaw. Tribal battles and warlords were rife in these countries, long before the "white capitalist global corporate pigs" were on the scene.


You do realise Europeans utterly smashed themselves to bits twice in tribal warlord battles of our own. Not to mention countless civil wars before then. It happened before, during and after our own collective economic prosperity began. Clearly there's more to it than who's killing who.
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 14:29 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
You do realise Europeans utterly smashed themselves to bits twice in tribal warlord battles of our own.


I'd argue if anything it was the fiery, crucible of Europe that drove the Euros to become to global power they became. It seemed to be at that just-right level where they conflict intensity was high enough to drive advancement but low enough to not grind economies and infrastructure into the ground.

Battlefield causalities have been a big driver of medical progress since forever (just in Korea and Vietnam, loads and loads of new info was discovered about the intestines and load of new surgeries pioneered due to the amount of troops getting gutshot).

The machine that finally could bore a cyclinder with good enough uniformity to make a useful steam engine..... was a machine developed to bore cannon barrels.

We've literally been finding new and improved ways to kill each other for at least the last 2000 years, and likely long before. Compare that with going to other countries where they literally had early-metal or stone-age technology levels.... it's no surprise we dominated so well.
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 14:46 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0C4_88ub_M

I saw this the other day what was quite interesting.

Chinese company in africa (congo i think) trying to build a road. One of the chinese guys is trying to organise the materials and encounters extreme frustration trying to simply get hold of gravel....

The chinese guy berates the natives for not keeping the infrastructure the whites built maintained and functioning.

At one point he says something along the lines of:

"The Belgians built these railways in the 1930's and now they are just scrap metal, China didn't even have railways in the 1930's..... You didn't progress when the Belgians left, you went backwards!"

Shows a different side to China than the "everything shit always falling apart" stuff that we bitch about on here. As much as we may take the piss, compared to African-stylee Chinese stuff is actually pretty good. In lots of the construction side of things, the speed at which China can build stuff is actually quite amazing..... just hope it doesn't fall down.... Laughing
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:54 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
You do realise Europeans utterly smashed themselves to bits twice in tribal warlord battles of our own.

Efficiently. Africa's still at spears and machetes, and we sold them the machetes.


Lord Percy wrote:
Clearly there's more to it than who's killing who.

Is there?

European goes to war = progress.

African goes to war = regress.
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iooi
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PostPosted: 15:48 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Re: Ending Poverty Reply with quote
smegballs wrote:
I saw some statement on FB this morning:

Quote:
The world’s 100 richest people earned a stunning total of $240 billion in 2012 – enough money to end extreme poverty worldwide four times over


But what does it actually mean?


Depends on who you talk too...

To some poverty is not being able to have 3 holidays a year, the latest mobile phone, new car etc.
To other's it's being unable to have a meal a day and somewhere to sleep that is warm & dry.

According to some figures "There were 3.7 million children living in poverty in the UK in 2013-14"
How can a child have poverty. As they should be looked after by their parents.... So just how do they define poverty in children?

Money does not solve problems.

IT CAUSES THEM Rolling Eyes
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 18:28 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
smegballs wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0C4_88ub_M

I saw this the other day what was quite interesting.

Chinese company in africa (congo i think) trying to build a road. One of the chinese guys is trying to organise the materials and encounters extreme frustration trying to simply get hold of gravel....

The chinese guy berates the natives for not keeping the infrastructure the whites built maintained and functioning.

At one point he says something along the lines of:

"The Belgians built these railways in the 1930's and now they are just scrap metal, China didn't even have railways in the 1930's..... You didn't progress when the Belgians left, you went backwards!"

Shows a different side to China than the "everything shit always falling apart" stuff that we bitch about on here. As much as we may take the piss, compared to African-stylee Chinese stuff is actually pretty good. In lots of the construction side of things, the speed at which China can build stuff is actually quite amazing..... just hope it doesn't fall down.... Laughing


Actually go the the Democratic Republic of Congo.....

The airport, built by the Belgians is exactly as it was left by them after the independance war they had, even to the extent glass was never fitted in the viewing lounge windows and in the 1980s it still hadn't been fitted.

The road from the airport to Kinshasa is a 6 lane motory way with foot bridges every mile or so except the foot bridge construction which was started by the Belgians was never completed after the country became independant. All the bridges have supports and walkways but no steps up and down. The amount of people killed trying to cross that road was ridiculous. (this was the case in 1990, it might have changed by now)

I have worked in Nigeria for Shell for many years. The amount of money that country gets from black gold and gas is enough to fund many social programmes but it ends up in the ruling elites pocket. Don't blame Shell, they pay what and who they have to to trade.

Blame the fact any black African run country is endemically corrupt. There is not one that has regressed from when they were European run colonies to backwater shit holes that they are now.

PB hunkers down for the 'you racist bastard, it's all the fault of the white man' from Vincent.
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 19:04 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
smegballs wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0C4_88ub_M

"The Belgians built these railways in the 1930's and now they are just scrap metal, China didn't even have railways in the 1930's..... You didn't progress when the Belgians left, you went backwards!"


Time is 1:13:00 if anyone just wants to see that bit and not watch the whole thing.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 20:52 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:

Blame the fact any black African run country is endemically corrupt. There is not one that has regressed from when they were European run colonies to backwater shit holes that they are now.


How about Botswana?

All the best

Katy
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 22:04 - 16 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:


And the relevance of this is?

I see your post blaming global corporates for Africa's tribal warfare, as cobblers and the above as an irrelevant diversion tactic.


No, I suggested the overall poor economic situation in Africa may be down to multinational corporations sitting on all the resources.

War etc is only part of the picture.

It's blatantly an incredibly complex issue. It's absurd that you, or anyone, can say it's all down to them just being a load of spear-chucking swamp men in mud huts.
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