Born again bikers???

[Motkram]

During my 'reckless' youth, it made my blood boil to be told that I was dangerous and likely to end up crashing my car because it was a bit quick. When I started with bikes (a little late at 19) the same was said again.

It is now quite well documented that over the last few years 'born again' bikers are the most likely candidates to liquidise themselves, so,
1. How many of you lot are 'born agains' and how do you feel being labelled as statistically dangerous?
2. What is your view on on the appalling statistics-should there be greater restrictions? better training? how do you think Whitehall look upon the situation? Does it have a wider impact on the whole two wheeled 'community'?

Discuss.

See this for example: https://www.paramedic.org.uk/news/2004/08/News_Item.2004-08-04.0533/view
____________________
Part-time GSXR1000 pilot>Micron Serpert system+K&N, PC111, Sigma slipper clutch, Brembo m/c+Galfer discs, Gilles rearsets, Translogic Quickshifter.

GP125>GSF400>VFR400NC30>YZF600R>YZFR1(1998)+KLR250>YZFR1(2003)>CBR900RRY>YZFR1(2002)>GSXR1000K1+RGV250

[Ninja]

I'll hold my hand up - 33 and first bike back after a looooong gap was a GPZ900R (also first 'big' bike) - and briefly, the whole BABs thing, IMHO, is cack ... I'll post soemthing more substantial when I get the time ... tarar for now
____________________
James
4 wheels transport the Body ... 2 wheels transport the SOUL

[Kickstart]

Hi

Not a born again at 36, been riding bikes for years.

However I suspect the main issue is not that older riders are more likely to wipe themselves out, just that there are a far greater number of inexperienced older riders these days in comparison to younger riders. Until about 18 months ago, only one person who I worked with had got into bikes after the age of 21, yet I know of 3 since then.

Bikes have got far more popular over the past half a dozen years, and many of those taking to bikes have barely any experience yet rush out and buy an uber quick bike.

At the end of the day, 3 days wobbling round on a low powered bike prepares you for a sports 600 (or more), about as much as 3 days playing Microsoft Flight Simulator would prepare someone for landing a 747 at Heathrow.

Insurance costs do seem to be a bit mad, and age seems to be treated as far more important than experience. Motorcycle no claims is not as worthless as it used to be (until 10 years ago few companies gave any no claims on motorcycle policies, and even those tiny number who did would only count up to about 4 years / 40% at most), but still seems of less importance than with cars.

To show you how silly insurance can get, some companies will still give me a discount for the Star Rider course I did 18 years ago (certainly would the last time I rang round). Yes it was not a bad course, but in reality (imo) of less relevance than a couple of years riding.

All the best

Keith
____________________
Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[CBRnick]

I guess I fall into that category.
When I was younger I used to ride a lamberetta registered as a 125 but with a 225 engine. Then when I got my full licence I moved onto an RC350LC and became an accident stat waiting to happen.

Then after over 15 years of driving a car I got a bike which I chopped in pretty soon for a CBR600.

I feel im a better than average rider. I have my mad moments like everyone but if we didnt then there wouldnt be any point to having a 'big' bike would there...

It does annoy me that I am labelled a born again rider by people half my age who have been riding a fraction of the total years Ive been riding.

Better training for less money should be avialable.
The government screams for more trining, but then sets legislation that prices it out of the reach of 75% of people.

Bikesafe courses are brilliant, yet are in danger of closing because the government will not fund them and most of the police riders who run the courses do it in thier own time.

There should also be special legislation for bike riders to carry 9mm Heckler and Koch MP5 snub nose to rid the roads of twist and go scooter riders and anyone who drives a nova or a volvo. Should reduce the accident stats some way

[strag]

I suppose i fall into this category. I first got a bike aged 10 for riding on fields etc and had various bikes until i got an AP50 at 16, then had a GT250 for a year before getting a car; you could have a 250 on a provisional then. After a gap of 20 odd years i took my DAS in 02 and got a Z750 then Thundercat and now have a Thunderace. I have not seen the research that says BAB are more likely to be injured etc so take it with a pinch of salt. All I know is that I hopped back on the bike, and unlike a lot of 'younger' riders due to my experience as a kid had no trouble with gears clutch cornering etc as a lot of people seem to have. I feel I am a competent rider, yes I take some risks but not as many as I would have at 17 or 18! I have a bike that will do 165mph and am experienced enough to treat it with the respect it deserves.

In short I don't agree with labelling, this can be done to suit any situation. I have'nt seen the stats so cannot comment, and training is good in any situation.

Rant over

Oh yeah, insurance is cheap too, £175 for a 145bhp bike
____________________
carbon bling

[THCi]

£1.20 a HP nice, for me its more like £32.50/HP, not nice. But, lets consider that I spend 2-3 hours a day in the saddle, cover a whack of miles a week...so gain a lot of experience in the road types that I will most frequent (open countryside, uber-twisties, tight-twisties, and anything in between)

Anyway, my dad went out on my bike after Id run it in (he point blank refused to get on it before, said hed open it up and we'd never see him again), after that experience he said that he would NEVER buy a bike again. He said that traffic, and road condition, have detierorated that much that he didnt feel safe. I said that it was probably the fact that it was a 125, and he would feel happier on a big bike. Im yet to prove this theory (not having a big bike strikes this out, for now..).

I think that my dad would be ok as a BAB, but he doesnt. Mind you, dont think that my mom would be any good as a BABC.
____________________
Past: GZ 125 K4 Marauder, VL 125 LC Intruder, FZS 600 Fazer. Present: GSF 600 N K3 Bandit, GSX-R 600 X(soon)
"We're not gonna die. We can't die, Bendis. You know why? Because we are so...very...pretty. We are just too pretty for God to let us die."

[mchaggis]

There is one universal law, no matter where it is applied. Everyone thinks they are an above average driver. Obviously, that cannot be true.

Personally, I know I'm still pretty crap at riding bikes, I'm pretty certain I could pass the test, but even after a year of riding around on a machine with 10 hp, I really don't want to be putting myself on something with 100+. I can ride, but my cornering technique leaves a lot to be desired and I still have little confidence in leaning over a long way.

Whilst on a 125 and having the best reaction times I'm ever going to have (at 20), I've still managed to have a crash resulting in serious injuries. I don't imagine that accumulating no claims would ever really catch up with just getting older in terms of insurance prices.

Whether you're 20 on a 600, or 50 on a 600, with the same level of inexperience, you're similarly likely to crash imo. Obviously maturity plays a key part, but a lot of BaBs often appear not to take any fewer risks riding than younger people often do. Perhaps we should be classifying people on how they ride rather than how old they are? I'll bet the BaBs hooning about and killing themselves would be hooning about and killing themselves no matter how old they were.

I think the way people ride is more linked to their experience, their attitudes, whether they have enough common sense and whether they can acknowlege their limits. Be the rider 17 or 60, there are always those who don't have/ do the above and who give everyone a bad reputation.

However, the big caviat I would place is that if people want to kill themselves on bikes, it's mostly own their decisions and their actions which cause the accidents, and that they are more often than not the only people killed or seriously injured.
____________________
I must not be a troll...
Mmmm, Guinness
Discovering the delights of Hammerite and a 3/4" brush.

[Zoffo]

It's a bit strange when you read this forum. There's probably a majority of young riders here and there isn't a day goes by when someone doesn't post about their latest off. But you younguns tend to patch things up and get on with it without bothering the insurance company. Us old farts are banging on their door if get the slightest fairing scratch. Wonder if this affects the figures.
I'm on a couple of other forums with as many members but mostly middle aged bikers and it's very rare to read about someone binning it.
To be honest I question the figures and wonder if someone has an agenda. It's just not my experience.

[mchaggis]

Also bear in mind that young people bounce better, are more difficult to break and they normally heal faster and better. Older males and especially females are more likely to suffer greater consequences from crashing simply because their skeletons are weakening and their physical fitness is generally lower.

The statistics for serious injuries (eg broken bones) will be skewed towards people with more breakable bones. I imagine most head trauma is the same whoever you are though.
____________________
I must not be a troll...
Mmmm, Guinness
Discovering the delights of Hammerite and a 3/4" brush.

[Wave2k]

you can kill yourself on any bike, any power, any size and any age
just a bigger bike can be a little less forgiving
provided your not throttle heavy you will be fine

some people on here believe there are only 2 throttle posititions on say an R1, on and off
"if u had a go on an R1 you would SO die" pffffttt
____________________
Ducati 1299 Panigale
2009 Corvette C6 z51
RS125->CBR400->RXS100->GSXR750K2->Ducati749S->CBR600RR5->TL1000R->DRz400->RSVR1000->Honda VTR SP1->CBR400->GSXR1000K6->Honda H100->CBR600RR3->Ducati1299

[Andy99]

The trouble is bike deaths are up and the average age of those who are dying is also up and the last i heard the type of accidents which is killing us is changing. A few years ago (well nearly a decade anyway) most bike deaths were at junctions and involved another vehicle,these days the majority are single vehicle accidents on corners of country roads. So whats to be done to change the trend?
I'm a 30 something and been riding bikes since my teens,people my age are suprised i only ride a 600,that i think is part of the problem. People seem to think bigger is best so born againers want big bikes.After all they used to ride Z1000 etc.. back in the day and now have more cash to spend and don't want what they see as a poxy little bike now.
It would be interesting to see stats showing age,experience and bike size in fatal accidents.
I think free advance training (with free to join associations) or some sort of track school to teach people how to ride modern bikes is the way to go. Spending years driving cars you can forget alot of the skills that become second nature and instinctive when riding bikes.
____________________
Nothing gets the point across quite like a raised middle digit.

Just call me General Crazypaws.

[Kickstart]

[sakean99]

Once a Biker always a Biker - and probably a better driver for it!

Passed my bike test first time after progressing from a Phillips moped to a Beezer 250 in 1962.

Managed to wheelie the Beezer thro' the back door into the kitchen one day when messing around. Frightened the pants off my Mum who was cooking dinner & caused me to learn a lot about clutch control & carpentry very quickly (ie before Dad came home).

Left bikes for cars when I started serious courting & married - then went back again for City commuting thro' the 70s & 80's. mostly CB175, RD200 & similar. Then another gap and back to the occaisional holiday hire in Italy/ Cyprus and then . . . .

Just got a GSX750F which can travel a lot faster that I can at present. I'm very aware that, at 58, I am that much nearer the Grim Reaper and slower to react. Nevertheless, I like big cars (4ltr Jag & V8 Merc Roadster) and bikes are just that much more "in tune" with the road. It's just a pity about having to wear a crash hat these days, I like the wind in the hair experience of open top motoring & I used to wear only a swimming costume riding along the prom in the summer (Bumble bees give you a third nipple if you don't see them coming)
____________________
Born again Bikers can do it again, & again, & again!

[Mr C]

[Steve H]

I think disposable income is a factor too (and I'm gonna generalize here - I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular).

The 35 'n over set who've had the wife and mortgage for a long period of time now find themselves with all the usual mod cons, Lay-z-boy, Racks of CD's, PS2, shiny car, etc and still have the cash to be able to splash out on something that they can afford to have sat in the garage for 6 months of the year - When the sun comes out, the leathers and helmet go on and it's 'Hammer Time'

A couple of my friends have done the tarmac toboggan, sliding down some rural country road on their arses as their GSXR disappears out of view. It's plainly obvious to me that the DAS system is partly to blame.

I did the DAS and bought a Sports 600 yet I still don't agree with the way any Tom , Dick or Harriet with a few grand to spare can take 3 or 4 days off work, pass a mickey mouse test where for the vast majority of the time you'll be riding in a town/city environment where speed is kept to a minimum and then after passing go out and buy something 'off the rack' that would scare the nuts off a veteran biker.

Until some type of a cc restriction is brought in for new bikers (whatever their age) or worthy advanced riding courses are made compulsory for those who've been out of the saddle for a certain period of time then deaths are going to be more prevalent amongst the middle aged new biker fraternity unfortunately.
SteveH
____________________
Mellow Yellow
The BCF Top TEN - 2010, 2009, 2008, The Original.

[Andy99]

[jaffa]

BAB at the age of 33 (3 years ago), crashed after 5 months just not paying attention doing 30 in a 30 zone, I drove into the back of a stationary estate car and went over the top of it. I did the tank with my bollocks and then nearly pulled my left leg off, it got stuck in the handlebars and I dragged the (180kg) bike up onto the roof of the car with it.

Had it been a bus or a lorry I'd probably have been one of those statistics though.

I can see how those statistics come about, the overconfidence thing is an easy trap to fall into, I once hit a large stone in a corner that put me on the wrong side of the road, fortunately there was nothing coming.

I'm now more careful.
____________________
jaffa - all juice and no pips

[Kickstart]

[Bendy]

Perhaps we have an element of the 'fork-tailed doctor killer' syndrome*... the kind of (usually) men who are ramping up the company Tony, driving my Jaguar Tony... you know the kind I mean... they're the ones who aren't going to entertain the concept that they possibly aren't instantly great at something.

Those people are your problem. Just like kids who think they know it all, with the advantage of plenty cash to spend on their new toy.

It's got nothing to do with age really, it's just that mindset that 'I know it all' that does the damage. People who think cos they passed their DAS that they can go straight out and thrash an R1 round the twisties.


*After pilots, doctors and lawyers are the most common professions to die in plane crashes. They have the cash to fly, and aren't good at taking other people's advice.

[MarJay]

I think Bendy hit the nail on the head there really.

Its all about overconfidence IMO, Kids die on powerful bikes because they know the bike is powerful but they think they are Valentino Rossi.

Born agains die on bikes because they think they are as skilled as they were on their BSA bantam 175 when they were 20, and don't know that the Litre or even sports 6 is the nuclear bomb to the BSA's crossbow.

IMO, If you start small, work your way up and spend around a year on each size of bike or until you are completely comfortable then you will become a safer rider. However this might be a symptom of respect for powerful bikes rather than a progression of skill.
____________________
British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.

[G]

As has been mentioned to some degree, I think the figures might be a bit different if your average 17 year old could easily aquire a legal full power r1 to ride and it be considered acceptable.

I also think that people are pehaps getting annoyed about being sterotyped, rather than the actual problem it's self.

[Motkram]

Some sensible responses here, and it is amusing to see some people hopping on the defensive straight away!

To reiterate we are talking about middle aged white men on powerful bikes with little experience or a long gap between riding being the most likely group of people to be involved in a fatal or serious injury accident where no-one else is involved.

People talk about 'real world' training, but don't forget that the government can hardly condone teaching people to take A/B road bends at 80mph can they? The training and testing scheme can only train people to ride within the law.

It is not a problem exclusive to the UK, here is a fair and balanced report from the BBC- (please read it all) https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4208163.stm

My concern is the impact on everyone, (not least of all me!) the current view of motorcycling from the government is not good, (being ignored as a partial solution for London's congestion springs to mind) the majority of motorcycle press wheelying across ministers desks and horrendous fatality figures is not helping.

How long before we are outlawed?
____________________
Part-time GSXR1000 pilot>Micron Serpert system+K&N, PC111, Sigma slipper clutch, Brembo m/c+Galfer discs, Gilles rearsets, Translogic Quickshifter.

GP125>GSF400>VFR400NC30>YZF600R>YZFR1(1998)+KLR250>YZFR1(2003)>CBR900RRY>YZFR1(2002)>GSXR1000K1+RGV250

[Andy99]

We as motorcycle riders are one of the few groups of road users with an increasing death rate,the government wants road deaths down so will be looking at groups like us as a way of reducing them.
What worries me is the thought of another attempt to bring in BHP limits,they tried it several years ago but failed as they couldn't prove that more power equals more accidents. If the motorcycle death rate continues in the current trend would we be able to justify powerful bikes being allowed on the roads,i doubt it.
____________________
Nothing gets the point across quite like a raised middle digit.

Just call me General Crazypaws.

[instigator]

They tried it a couple of years ago?? When was this?

The only time I knew of a bhp limit was when the bike manufacturers "agreed" to keep it below a certain figure(100bhp?) but then triumph broke it with the release of a new bike

[cc123]

No matter what age or experience you have, people should maybe take a long hard look at themselves before they buy a powerful bike and go kill themselves.....

Born again or not. I passed my DAS course with only an ER-5 as a bench mark as a bike, yet I bought a ZX6R which has double the power. I think I've been sensible with it. I know my own and the bikes limits and know the bike will always be better than I am.

When these older chaps go out and buy a bike and get back onto the road, maybe they should step back and look at what they are doing. If the government doesn't enforce it, maybe they themselves should seek a refresher course and use some common sense before venturing back out?
____________________
Old bikes >>> https://www.bikepics.com/members/cc123/