Chinese bikes meeting the Euro regs.

Piercee100 · Trackday Trickster Joined: 07 Mar 2011 Karma :

I was thinking that this year may be the last time we see a lot of (cheaper) bike brands, what with the Euro ABS rules killing them off. I do hope company's like Royal Enfield drag their technology forwards so the Bullet is still available. Anyway, whilst randomly trawling the web I spotted this-

https://sinnismotorcycles.com/motorcycle.php?motorcycle=Sinnis%20Buccaneer%20250%20EFI

Does this prove that there is an important bike market in Europe and the Chinese are willing to update their technology?

According to Sinnis-
This is the next phase in motorcycle engineering, and is already ahead of new regulations set to affect the new motorcycle market in 2017.
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Rides: Honda H100a (Retired), VT500e (Sold), Kawasaki ZX400 (sold), Kawasaki GT550 (Sold), Suzuki Inazuma (Daily), Honda CD185t (Broken), LML Star 2t (Last run edition).

Rogerborg · nimbA Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :

I'm not seeing ABS on it. According to what the DVLA told me, they shouldn't be able to register that bike, as in right now, not from next year. This seems to be being ignored at the moment, but at any point the rug could get pulled out from under importers who are ignoring the new regs.

Aside, the local importer stopped selling EFI Chinese-made bikes because of too many warranty claims on them.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

Itchy · Super Spammer Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Karma :

Why would they?

In Asia and India you can sell 50 million units a year.

In Europe you'd be lucky to sell 100,000.

Honda the behemoth of motorbikes only sold 18 million units world wide.

The domestic market in China is 22 million units with about 6-9 million being exported to other Asian nations and the odd shipping container to Europe.
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Rogerborg · nimbA Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :

That.

EFI is an alternative to a carb. You need one or the other. A sensor, some cheap electronics and one moving part and you've got yourself a price differentiating point.

But ABS is an unnecessary addition. More complication, more cost, and riders who've never used it will scoff that they don't need it.

I harbour doubts that any Chinese / Taiwanese / Korean manufacturer is going to bother complying with the Eurobollocks to chase a tiny number of sales. Which may very well be one of the points of it.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

Copycat73 · World Chat Champion Joined: 11 Jan 2013 Karma :

Polarbear · Super Spammer Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Karma :

Piercee100 · Trackday Trickster Joined: 07 Mar 2011 Karma :

I was just fascinated by the fact that this bike claims to meet all the EU 2017 regs. All the other Chinese manufactures are keeping very quiet about it.
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Rides: Honda H100a (Retired), VT500e (Sold), Kawasaki ZX400 (sold), Kawasaki GT550 (Sold), Suzuki Inazuma (Daily), Honda CD185t (Broken), LML Star 2t (Last run edition).

Rogerborg · nimbA Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :

It doesn't appear to me that it even meet the current ones. No ABS, and does it have an OBD port, Nanny Spychip, and anti-tamper gubbins?

But yes, there is a conspiracy of silence going on. I wonder if there are some rather nervous importers out there wondering what happens when the hammer finally falls.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

Northern Monkey · World Chat Champion Joined: 17 Nov 2013 Karma :

talkToTheHat · World Chat Champion Joined: 21 Feb 2012 Karma :

I thought ABS was only required on bikes over 125cc, so our supply of cheap 125s was not interrupted. Euro 4 emissions compliance us required on new models now and soon (place bets rogerborg has this date in an open tab) for existing models.
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Rogerborg · nimbA Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :

NJD · World Chat Champion Joined: 11 Mar 2015 Karma :

stevo as b4 · World Chat Champion Joined: 17 Jul 2003 Karma :

A big rear drum brake in most cases is at least as effective as a disc brake, and a far better parking brake too.

Car's still use drums with ABS, I see no real reason why you cant make ABS work on a bike with a rear drum brake?

Working on a drum brake is at times far easier than a disc, when you get to the stage of having seized pistons, or the pistons pop out when cleaning the calipers etc. There's also no hard to bleed issues with setting up a drum brake.

Personally I think bike maintenance should be taught to would be riders. You cant pass the test until you can re-build a simple drum brake and do basic servicing items would work for me.

NJD · World Chat Champion Joined: 11 Mar 2015 Karma :

linuxyeti · World Chat Champion Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Karma :

Hi

From the way I read it, existing 125cc models can pretty much stay as they are really until Euro 5 comes into force in 2020, certainly ABS is not a requirement on 125cc bikes in Euro 4 regs. The existing models, of all sizes, have 1 years grace to match Euro 4 compliance, so, the changes to existing, or new models coming in, are likely to be spread over this year.

Euro 5 is the main game changer, that will make a big difference, and not just to chinese manufacturers, and is why for example, Triumph have made a completely new engine etc for the Bonneville family, as it wouldn't be cost effective to make the relatively minor changes for Euro 4, only for them the be done much more aggressively for Euro 5 compliance by the end of 2020, especially on the emissions front.
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Rogerborg · nimbA Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :

The issue is what constitutes an "existing" model.

My understanding, and this is where it gets fuzzy, is that "existing" means models that were introduced up to sometime in 2013 or so. Euro 4 and the rest of the Eurobollocks applies to them from the start of next year.

But any more recent bike, and that includes bikes like the Lexmoto Venom and a whole bunch of other imports, should be compliant right now.

And all bikes, regardless of age, need to have always-on headlights (I don't think Enfields have them yet) and low-evaporation fuel systems (and I'm guessing a carb bowl is a no-no for that).

DVLA have told me that they will refuse to register bikes that are not compliant, and yet there are bikes that are clearly not compliant that are still being registered.

I have no idea why, although I'd hazard a guess that the folks at DVLA who know what should be happening have sent an email to the folks who should be implementing it, and then washed their hands of it. Not my job, look you.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

-Monty- · World Chat Champion Joined: 20 Apr 2012 Karma :

stinkwheel · Bovine Proctologist Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :

NJD has clearly never ridden any rear disc braked bikes made by Kawasaki between about 1992 and 2002.

Their single pot sliding rear calliper is something special. By special, I mean as in needs, not fried rice.
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NJD · World Chat Champion Joined: 11 Mar 2015 Karma :

Rogerborg · nimbA Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :

Drums are fine on the rear. If you can lock them up, they're sufficient for the job. The rear drum on my GPz305 was indeed better than the rear disc on my GPZ500S.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

Piercee100 · Trackday Trickster Joined: 07 Mar 2011 Karma :

Just another thought, would this ABS 125cc rules mean we're going to see more of this 110cc stuff- Honda Vision, Wave and Suzuki Address so far? I'm sure Honda do some smaller motorcycles for the Indian market. Could be a cheap way around the regs.
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Rides: Honda H100a (Retired), VT500e (Sold), Kawasaki ZX400 (sold), Kawasaki GT550 (Sold), Suzuki Inazuma (Daily), Honda CD185t (Broken), LML Star 2t (Last run edition).

Evil Hans · World Chat Champion Joined: 08 Nov 2015 Karma :

Pigeon · World Chat Champion Joined: 27 Sep 2012 Karma :

Didn't have to stamp too hard on my fake ybr rear drum brake to lock the wheel. Perfectly acceptable on a bike weighing 115kg and topping out at 60mph

I can't say I'm a fan of ABS. Having now seen the size of the unit + metal pipes and the cost of replacing should it fail (£1000 just for the modulator Shocked

). Not to mention, to bleed the ABS system requires Triumph software to plug into the OBD port. TuneECU not yet capable in bluetooth mode. There is a another bit of kit for £60, but requires MS Windows (something I don't have).

I'm kicking myself I bought it with ABS......right up until I need it of course Smile

Small capacity motorcycles (sub 301cc) are about cheap transport. Frugal in up front cost, frugal in running and maintenance.
They account for less than 1% of traffic (probably less than 0.5%). They weigh less than 150kg (thinking of limited amount of raw materials to make them), they do 70-110mpg.
So why hamper there existence. Hey, legislation, one size does not fit all. Where is the common sense?

With a bit of luck we'll carpe diem and #brexit . I'm under no illusions that we won't have to fight legislation, but at least it should be more likely to get a result.

Rogerborg · nimbA Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :

To be clear:

Up to and including 125cc = linked brakes or ABS.

Over 125cc = must have ABS.

ABS is/will be required on any road registered bike (over 125cc) even if it's primarily designed for off road use. However, "dual purpose" on/off road bikes are at least allowed to disable it.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

Piercee100 · Trackday Trickster Joined: 07 Mar 2011 Karma :

I was at a dealers over the weekend (Just put a deposit on one of the last run of Vespa PX 2t's hopefully as an investment- never ridden one lol).

Anyhow, I was talking to the dealer about all the bikes I could see that clearly had no euro poo, in his shop and what was he going to do at the end of the year?

He told me they actually have 2yrs to clear stock. This year is normal, but at the end of the year he has to inform DVLA of everything that doesn't meet the euro reg's and he has 12 months after that to clear stock. Whether that means pre-reg I don't know, but he assured me that their will be a lot of bargains to be had next year as these will need to be discounted to sell quickly.
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Rides: Honda H100a (Retired), VT500e (Sold), Kawasaki ZX400 (sold), Kawasaki GT550 (Sold), Suzuki Inazuma (Daily), Honda CD185t (Broken), LML Star 2t (Last run edition).