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road markings, signs, signals and precedence?

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Val
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PostPosted: 01:06 - 24 Mar 2016    Post subject: road markings, signs, signals and precedence? Reply with quote
I need some help here. I've got my license 30 odd years ago and my understanding of the trafic law is:

1. Police officer live directions trump all.
2. Traffic signal lights have precedence over signs and road markings
3. Traffic signs (incuding temporary ones) have precedence over road markings.

I struggle to find that clear guidance in the UK highway code?

What is the exact law about that in the UK?

INB4 signs and road markings can't conflict:

https://i.imgur.com/hfXqrS4.jpg
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 01:19 - 24 Mar 2016    Post subject: Re: road markings, signs, signals and precedence? Reply with quote
Val wrote:
INB4 signs and road markings can't conflict:

https://i.imgur.com/hfXqrS4.jpg


Question
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Islander
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PostPosted: 01:44 - 24 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
If there's a stop sign, I'd give that priority irrespective of the give way markings.
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 01:49 - 24 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
I would hazard a guess that they put the STOP sign there to try and get people to actually have a decent look before crossing the line.
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mauzo
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PostPosted: 02:01 - 24 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Highway Code wrote:
§105 You MUST obey signals given by police officers, traffic officers, traffic wardens and signs used by school crossing patrols.

§109 Traffic light signals and traffic signs. You MUST obey all traffic light signals and traffic signs giving orders, including temporary signals and signs. [...]


So, there is no admission that they can conflict; you must obey all of them at once. I don't think there are any realistic situations where this isn't possible. (Something like a 'min speed 30' and a 'max speed 20' at the same time is theoretically possible, but even in that case the right thing to do is perfectly clear: obey the 20 limit.)

In practice if a police officer gives you directions which conflict with the signs you obey the officer, and if temporary roadworks signs contradict permanent signs (which haven't been painted out) you obey the temporary signs. But unless they're doing something really odd like directing you the wrong way down a one-way road it's quite hard to see how they could actually contradict the existing signs.

Val wrote:
INB4 signs and road markings can't conflict:


Those signs don't match, but they don't conflict. The stop sign says you must stop, so you stop. The give way lines don't say you can't stop.

If it had been the other way round, with a STOP line and a \/ give way sign, you still have to stop. The sign doesn't take precedence just because it's a sign.
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thx1138
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PostPosted: 07:37 - 24 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
mauzo wrote:


Those signs don't match, but they don't conflict. The stop sign says you must stop, so you stop. The give way lines don't say you can't stop.

If it had been the other way round, with a STOP line and a \/ give way sign, you still have to stop. The sign doesn't take precedence just because it's a sign.


Though if it were the other way round in bad weather, snow, you might not be able to see the road markings, but the road signs for give way or stop have distinctive shapes...
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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 07:48 - 24 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
A traffic officer once told me that apart from the obvious exception of solid white lines, road markings are advisory, road signs dictate what you must do. Of course plod/lollipop lady trumps all. Bit of common sense doesn't go amiss though.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:08 - 24 Mar 2016    Post subject: Re: road markings, signs, signals and precedence? Reply with quote
That's a reasonable rule of thumb.

Val wrote:
https://i.imgur.com/hfXqrS4.jpg

Lawnmower theft in progress.

If you want to check:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/contents/made

For the situation shown, the stop sign is 601.1 (Schedule 2, regulatory signs). https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/schedule/2/made

Vehicular traffic must comply with the requirements prescribed in regulation 16. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/regulation/16/made

Reg 16 wrote:
Every vehicle shall stop before crossing the transverse line shown in diagram 1002.1 or, if that line is not clearly visible, before entering the major road in respect of which the sign shown in diagram 601.1 has been provided; and

(b)no vehicle shall cross the transverse line shown in diagram 1002.1 or, if that line is not clearly visible, enter the major road in respect of which the sign shown in diagram 601.1 has been provided, so as to be likely to endanger the driver of or any passenger in any other vehicle or to cause that driver to change the speed or course of his vehicle in order to avoid an accident.


Now, the line isn't compliant with the solid stop line in 1002.1.

However, I (just my opinion) would argue that just means that the prescribed line "is not clearly visible", and so the rest of the sign requirements kick in. It's the sign that creates the requirement to stop, not the line.

What if you don't? Well, section 10 lists the signs and markings that actually create an offence (anything else is advisory, although you may be done for Careless/Inconsiderate under pretty much any circumstances) https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/regulation/10/made

601.1 (stop sign) is there, so that's mandatory.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 09:11 - 24 Mar 2016    Post subject: Re: road markings, signs, signals and precedence? Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:

Lawnmower theft in progress.



FFS Roger Laughing
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AdamEf
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PostPosted: 09:50 - 24 Mar 2016    Post subject: Re: road markings, signs, signals and precedence? Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:

Lawnmower theft in progress.



FFS Roger Laughing


Ha ha!

I genuinely thought it was going to be about some road altercation involving the guy crossing without looking and a collision with the lawn mower.. that's the first thing i saw in the pic! Doh.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:19 - 24 Mar 2016    Post subject: Re: road markings, signs, signals and precedence? Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
Lawnmower theft in progress.

FFS Roger Laughing

Vincent would have loved that one. Crying or Very sad
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Mudshark
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PostPosted: 12:50 - 24 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
this is my favourite "to much to think about" version

broken white line, but traffic signal could be red, what to do.... Thinking Whistle
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mauzo
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PostPosted: 13:07 - 24 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mudshark wrote:
this is my favourite "to much to think about" version

broken white line, but traffic signal could be red, what to do.... Thinking Whistle

That light doesn't apply to traffic crossing that line.
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yen_powell
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PostPosted: 13:31 - 24 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mudshark wrote:
this is my favourite "to much to think about" version

broken white line, but traffic signal could be red, what to do.... Thinking Whistle
That's a secondary signal so the driver has already passed the stop line. He can therefore turn right (giving way to oncoming traffic and only if his exit is clear the other side of the half yellow box junction) or even go straight ahead if that signal was showing red.
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