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| Saraya |
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Saraya
Spanner Monkey
Joined: 11 May 2016
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 Posted: 15:54 - 26 May 2016  Post subject: 3 newbie questions. |
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Hi all.
I’m wondering if you would please tell me what I’m doing wrong. I seem to be getting the hang of smoothly moving up the gears – but am cocking up changing back down again. The bike gets really loud and sounds kind of angry. And sort of slows and then lurches forward. It’s only ever when I change down. What on earth am I doing wrong? It usually occurs when I’m coming down from 4th as I approach roundabouts. And it happens as I go from 4th to 3rd – and then again from 3rd to 2nd. I’m assuming the ‘lurch’ is me being a noob with the clutch and letting it out to quickly while I become preoccupied with not dying on the roundabout.  But why is the bike screaming at me?
Also, which way do you go around a pothole that is smack bang centre of your lane? Hubby acting as rolling roadblock has twice commentated that I need to make sure I don’t drift to the left and to stay central/more to the right. Twice now, I’ve chosen to go right around a particularly large hole. I’m not in danger of crossing into oncoming traffic – but have noticed both times that drivers coming towards me kind of look like this.  So just wondering what is the usual protocol for swerving round things in the middle?
Following the advice from you guys on previous threads, bike is now secured with an Almax chain into a concreted in ground anchor at home. (Though I nearly broke my foot when I dropped the package as the delivery guy handed me the chain. And seem to have a weird burn mark on my thumb, from my first ever concrete making adventure.)
Anyway, how receptive have you found employers in allowing you to put anchors in at work? I couldn’t do a concrete one but was going to ask if I could get one of those bolt to the ground type ones. I work nights, at a place with an open car park on a busy-ish road. I’m not currently riding to work as I’m paranoid my little YBR will be a target for 2 blokes with a van.
Any advice much appreciated.  |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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Posted: 16:40 - 26 May 2016  Post subject: Re: 3 newbie questions. |
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| Saraya wrote: | I’m assuming the ‘lurch’ is me being a noob with the clutch |
It sounds like you may just be shifting down too soon. If you're coming to a halt, you can leave your downshifts quite late. If you're sure you're going to halt, you don't even need to engage the lower gears at all, just hold the clutch in as you coast to a halt and kick down through the gears.
Give it some practice away from a junction. Hold 4th gear (for example) then roll off the throttle and let the bike slow down while staying in gear. Just when the engine starts to judder, shift down to 3rd, then repeat for 2nd. You'll generally not want to shift to 1st while moving, it's for pulling away in, especially on a 125. You'll be surprised how slow you can be going before you have to shift down.
| Saraya wrote: | Also, which way do you go around a pothole that is smack bang centre of your lane? |
Any way you like. Don't worry about what other drivers are doing or thinking if they're not going to be intersecting with you. Left is fine, right is fine, just get back to your centre-right position (correct on the road, correct in the polling booth) asap.
It's great that you're prepared to go to the right, it shows confidence.
| Saraya wrote: | Almax chain into a concreted in ground anchor |
And there was much rejoicing!
| Saraya wrote: | Though I nearly broke my foot when I dropped the package as the delivery guy handed me the chain. |
That's the stuff. If you think it's ridiculously heavy, so might the pikeys.
| Saraya wrote: | I work nights, at a place with an open car park on a busy-ish road. |
Is there any furniture that you can lock on to? Railings, lamp posts, even a big bin? Anything to stop a casual wheeling-away.
No bicycle parking? When I'm bawwing to the council about the roads, I always say "bicycle" rather than motorbike on the assumption that they'll be keener to assuage the ecomentals.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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Posted: 18:25 - 26 May 2016  Post subject: Re: 3 newbie questions. |
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| Saraya wrote: | I’m wondering if you would please tell me what I’m doing wrong. I seem to be getting the hang of smoothly moving up the gears – but am cocking up changing back down again. |
Common Newbie affliction, and the root cause happens long before you change down... its when you change UP!
No change up... no-need change back down! Do it on the throttle! Just 'cos you have five years to play with, don't mean you have to play with them!
Little YBR has a rev range of aprox 1000rpm tick-over to about 11,000 rpm red line. It makes 'peak' power of about 10bhp at 10,000rpm.. wich makes for nice simple maths. 1bhp per 1000 revs, and geared in 'top' for max speed of 65mph at peak power, 6.5mph per 1000 revs.
A moped only needs 3bhp to go 30mph; 30, in top will come up at about 4,500 revs, where you will have almost 50% more power, 4.5bhp, than the 3 needed to go 30.... and that's in top gear,making the motor 'labour' like going up a hill.... in the lower gears, the gears do what they are supposed to, and multiply force, like a lever for an engine.. so in the lower ratio's, the engine is very much more 'responsive' and eager to rev-up and make the bike accelerate.
NOW.. the Newb, feels this 'surge' of revs and the bike 'screaming' as it accelerates, and changes UP, usually far too early, to keep that excitement in check and stop it feeling like the bike is getting away from them... but next gear is still pretty lively, and the next, and the next, and the next, and the inclination is then to 'Short Shift' changing up the gears far too soon, and in all liklihood you will be in 4th or even 5th by the time you are doing 30 on a suburban cul-de-sac! And the engine STILL has power in reserve at that speed to keep accelerating, if you keep the throttle wide open.
But, you roll off, and the bike feels happy enough.... until you see a junction or a round-about.... and now, you have to come back down them gears.... and you are likely to 'rush' them.
In a tall gear, rolling off the throttle, you wont 'loose' speed very fast, without breaking, so you will 'bang down' a gear... engine that wasn't revving very high, is now asked to accelerate to probably 2x the revs it was turning before.... but you got the throttle closed, cos you want to slow down! Petrol isn't going to make it rev-up.. only thing to drive it up to the new speed is momentum turning the back-wheel, and turning the engine through the transmission...
Suddenly, the forces that were being made by the engine and pulling the back wheel round are reversed, as the wheel is providing the force to turn the engine over.... engine braking... but rushing the down change, applied suddenly... as all the slack in the transmission swaps places.. think about your 'chain' and the slack beneath the swing-arm... going from engine turning wheel, to wheel turning engine, all that slack has to shift from the bottom, to the top... and you get a 'lurch' as the 'lag' in the transmission 'loading' is probably slower than you feed the clutch out, in your rushed change, and you get a 'lurch'.
SOLUTION - No change UP, no need to change back DOWN. USE THE REVS you must! Not the Gears.
1st, you can short shift out of into 2nd almost as soon as you are moving. It's deliberately low for launching, with lots of 'reduction' as the bike might be being asked to do a hill-start with two hefty fellas on it.... little you, on the flat? Prbably dot need that low a gear... but 2nd is a bit too tall for a easy launch, so use 1st and short to 2nd almost as soon as you are moving.. but nce to know that gear will probably take you to 20-25mh if you want it to, without the engine throwing cogs or springs at you! It is designed to rev to 11,ooo+ rpm remember!
2nd... should take you easily from about 5mph all the way to probably 40mph... certanly 30 without it 'screaming', and in 'traffic' its a very useful gear, for 'response' being able to trickle down almost to walking pace, and even launch from a dead stop with a few revs and a little clutch slip, if needed.... so in uncertain stop-start traffic conditions, its the gear you probably should use to cover all eventalities, without havig to make unnecessay up or down chages.
3rd - mother of all work... particularly around town... you can change up to 3rd at about 25-30mph, and it will cover the range of speeds from about 20-40 maybe a tad more, and again, offers lots of 'response' on the throttle to change speed, without bashing the 'box.... in 3rd on 30mph roads, you probably don't need to worry abot othe gears, you can negotiate round-a-bouts and probably many junctions you don't have to over-slow for in it, and you still have plenty of reserve revs to get up to 40 or ore if the speed limit lifts, and STILL not have to make another up-change too soon.
BUT, 3rd gear? If you do need to slow down... you ONLY have ONE gear to come down.... and you have plenty of slowing available on the throttle, so the slack in the transmission ought to have better sorted itself out before you need make it, AND you shouldn't have to 'rush' and can do it ice and slow and smooth.
4th... treat as top... will take you from about 35mp to possibly a tad over 60... certainly close enough to your bikes 'top-speed' And you only need it when you have enough clear road to do that sort of speed, 50 & 60 limits, on major roads where there aren't too many juctions or tuff to make you change speed, and not in a hurry. So ths is your 'main-road' an 'cruising' gear... you shouldn't eed it round town, and if you use it, chances are you are just giving yourself ore work to shift up, and more still to shift back down!
5th - is an 'over-drive'. Bike probably wont go much if any faster in 5th than it will in 4th. Takes more power to accelerate a bike to speed than to hold a speed, so once up to maybe 50, you can use 5th to knock back the rev sfor more 'comfortable' cruisng on long open roads like duel carriageways you dont have anything to respond to in much of a hurry. Or if you take it close as you ca to 60 i 4th, deturmied to get the best speed, 5th might, on same long open road give you a chance to 'top out', holding the trottle wide open, nose o the clocks in that 'racer crouch' to eek out the little power you have to see maybe 70 on the dial in favourable condiions.
I suspect however, YOU are using 5th as a comfort.. bike has the power, even in 5th to pull 30mph and a bt more, and you are coging all the way up there, a) beacuse it feels right, and b) beause once you get there... you know you are in 'top' 'cos t wont go up no more! So you dont 'loose count' of the gear you are in...
And its ALL Fret-Factory... you are using the gears too much, because you have them, and you 'feel' you need to be dong somethng, and they are a convenient thing to do and fill worry room. Feels 'right' as it saves the engine screaming, or the bike getting away from you, and you know what gear you are in....
BUT... dont do it..... 2nd once moving 3rd round the streets, 4th ONLY when you are on the 'open road' and 5th, almost never at all!
USE THEM REVS... learn to modulate your speed ON THE THROTTLE not the gears... dont make work for yourself making up changes you dont need to, to make more having to make down changes you dont either!
Slow it down.. dont RUSH the chqnges, either up, nor down; change speed on the throttle and it WILL get smoother!
| Saraya wrote: | Also, which way do you go around a pothole that is smack bang centre of your lane? |
Bikes have a thing called suspension.. its a big spring that lets the wheels go up and down to absorb 'bumps' in the road..... WHY do you need to swerve? A little obtusely, if the pot-hole is that big you cant ride through it, then you should be stopping, noting its location and calling the council to come fix it!
Real world, roads are getting bad these day, but still. I've been off-roading for forty years, and I can tell you pretty emphatically, that you are more likely to 'crash' trying to 'swerve' unnecessarily to avoid a bump, than you are going over it and maybe getting a bit of a jarr through the saddle.
Slow down, dot grip the bars for grim death, push down a little on the pegs to take a t of weight off the seat, and the bike will go through most bumps with less 'deflection' from t, than you MAKE trying to make three direction changes in short space to avoid it!
If you can avoid them WITHOUT 'swerving' far play, its a smoother easier ride; BUT, don't FRET about it so much. And dont put yourself greater danger or worse MAKE extra 'hazard' to avoid one thats NOT that big.
Which side do you swerve? You DONT 'swerve'..is the simple answer!
You plot your course, to avoid, and that is which ever side dont take you into another, or bigger one, or put you in danger.
If you have a decent following distance between you and car nfront you aught be able to spot them early eough t avoid without swerve... if not... ride THROUGH lift bum, relax bars and let the bike do its thing! You will more likely make yourself crash panicking about it!
As for googlie eyed drivers.... probably wondering WHY you are randomly and violently swerving around the road to avoid shit you don't need too! BUT if you have time and attention to spend on their facial expressions? Yeah.. ugh... not that g a 'problem' me-thinks! But stuff-em... worry about your ride, your road, not what other drivers look like!
| Saraya wrote: | Anyway, how receptive have you found employers in allowing you to put anchors in at work? |
Cant say. Never been an issue for me, personally. Where I have worked they have always had a chap on the barrier who said "Morning Sir" to me....
Working in 'engineering' though... greater worry has been one of the techies having a lunch-break laugh and re-wiring my indicators back-wards or the back-brake lamp switch to the ignition 'kill' 
First call though would be a survey of already convenient lamp-posts or other suitable car-park fixtures.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| dydey90 |
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dydey90
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| Alan1986 |
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Alan1986
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Posted: 20:26 - 26 May 2016  Post subject: |
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Just read most of teflons post,
Find them very informative but abit long most the time if I'm being honest,
Made me think about my gear changes though, ride a cbf125 when I get the chance which isn't too often, I drive a company car most the time which has maybe given me bad habits,
I find when I'm going 40 mph I am in 5th on the bike,
Reading teflons post maybe I shouldn't be?
It does cause me to have to downshift for turns quite abit,
I change gear at around 6000 revs I think,
Ill try working the gears more next time I ride, should make it all abit easier
____________________
Cbt Done, Currently wobbling around on a Cbf125 and love it
DAS some time soon |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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Cronik
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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Posted: 22:18 - 26 May 2016  Post subject: |
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| Alan1986 wrote: | Ill try working the gears more LESS next time I ride, should make it all abit easier |
Use more revs, and less gears.
And yeah.. company car will be instilling bad-habits; short-shifting gears only one of them.
First it will have a relatively smooth four (or more) cylinder engine, wearing a water-jacket, and it's hidden away in a sound-proof box, while you sit in another!
You bike has a rather less refined single cylinder engine, more akin to a lawn mowers! It makes one pop every other rev, so is a bit lumpy in it's delivery, and you are sat on top of the thing, with nowt to damp the noises it makes.
Few car's rev as high as even little single-cylinder 4-stroke 125's, moderate rev ceiling... few car engines rev much over 9,ooo rpm, and most don't rev much over 5,ooo, especially if they are a deseasil!
With a lot more mass to shift, car engines tend also to be in a much lower state of tune. Not only is the peak power delivered at much lower revs, but they tend to deliver more power lower down the rev-range too, and encourage that 'short shifting' tendency..
I believe that since the days I did my car tests, driving instructors have also been teaching students to habitually short-shift and get in top as 'soon as possible'.... allegedly 'for economy', which is a debate itself.. but they teach it as 'good practise'.. which I don't agree it is, even in a car, necessarily, but it doesn't matter so much in a car, as they usually have an 'H' shift gear-box, and you can go from any gear to any gear, without having to go through all the ones in between, like you do on a bike with a sequential shift.
Deseasils? Even more horrible for engraining the tendency.. turbo-deseasils even worse; by nature of the fuel/igntion hey cant stand such a high state of tune as a petrol engine. Typical power curve ramps very steeply from tick-over to an almost flat-top power curve that doesn't increase much if any more with increased revs. Adding a turbo bumps up the hight of that shallow power curve, and can make the initial ramp even steeper.. but the net result is, a strong initial surge of acceleration that quickly trails off to nothing, begging another gear to get back down on the ramp and feel it surge back up.... ironically on a deseasil and more so a Turbo Deseasil, the 'short shift for ecconomy' argument can even more fall down on that one, as they are most efficient under most boost, which you get with'em reving, not labouring.....
Pure aside, my mother had a Renault 'Barge' estate car with a 2.1TD engine that was painful to ride in! 1-2-3-4-5 as quick as I typed that, in top by 30mph... then all the way to town the whole bludy car resonating asked to labour at such low revs.... "But its good for economy!" She insisted.... foot to the floor to make it go, the dam blower not doing a damn thing!
She was horrified when we used it for a holiday once, moaning at me I was making it 'scream' "Change UP" she was constantly yelling from the passenger seat... she was even more horifed when she worked out I'd got almost 50% more mpg from the dam thing than she did! (Although not trying to do 95 down the motorway to get there or back, was probably the more significant reason!.. she's a bit of a lead-foot)
However... use the revs not the gears... on a little bike with limited power, you HAVE to use them revs to get at the small power they have, and the bike will be a lot more response, and you will find it helps you get smoother, not making unnecessary changes up and down the gear-box. And it can work similarly in cars too....
Other bad habits car will be perpetuating?
1/ sit down-back out. - you will get on the bike before you put the key in and manoeuvre it around, like you do in the car; so are likely to 'paddle' it out of parking spaces, and such, rather than do it properly, with both feet on the floor, holding handle-bar and seat/grab-rail, like you were taught on CBT and are expected to do on MOD1 test.
2/ Mirror Dependency - you will likely not do decent rear observations i a car (few do) takes too much effort to turn in the chair strapped n with a damn baby-harness. So you will like as use the mirrors on the bike, like you do i the car, for all obs, not as prescribed, merely for 'glance checks'.
Remember, rear obs BEFORE a manoeuvre, look over your shoulder, don't just check the mirrors. O-S-P-M... Observation - Signal - Position - Manoeuvre make it clear, and over your shulder.
'Life-Saver' is a confidence check, to make sure nothing has changed in situation, again, look over your shoulder, check into the blind spot DURING a manoeuvre, or between position and manoeuvre.
Again, biker observations work well in cars!
3/ Muttering about other Drivers 'stupidity' as you ride. This is not so bad.. but when you have been used to doing it n your nice sound-proof box all winter... when they cant hear you! It CAN come as a bit of a surprise when, on the bike in the better weather, they yell BACK at you! Of course, this is worse, if, like me, you wear an open face helmet..... in a full-bone-dome, of course, it can still be pretty muffled, though can steam your visor up!
Those tend to be the top crimes.... it's when you start following other biker habbts in the car, though, it can get amusing.... like trying to 'lean' it into corners.. you (and hopefuly your passengers) wont notice until you are approaching a right hander and bang your head on the driver's door window lol!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| Alan1986 |
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Alan1986
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| Saraya |
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Saraya
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| Posted: 06:05 - 27 May 2016 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | That's the stuff. If you think it's ridiculously heavy, so might the pikeys. |
It’s definitely heavy – as I got the 2.5m one. As mentioned on previous thread, I hid the ground anchor in a hedge. Not sure how illegal ‘under hedge interference’ is – so put it in quite far. It was a labour of love, lying on my belly, digging a hole with a little trowel with my head in a holly bush. It was the first hole I’ve ever dug. I confess to feeling quite proud! (Until I then had to get the concrete in hole – and called myself many names for putting it so far back!)
Thanks for all the gear advice, guys. Will try and take it on board. Though with regard to using the revs; I’d never really paid any attention to the rev counter on my CBT bike. But at the dealership, after being scared sideways at the talk on the ‘dangers of new tyres’ - I then got told to try and ensure that I keep the revs under 5 for the first few weeks.
I’m finding it hard actually, as I’m already trying to learn so much new stuff with riding, road craft and Highway Code – that having to watch the rev counter too is rather pesky. They didn’t tell me why I have to keep it under 5 – so have convinced myself it’s a bit like that film, when the bus will explode if you go over a certain point.
Thanks for your post Teflon-Mike. It’s actually helped me understand a little more what an engine/gears are actually doing while I’m riding.
| Quote: | you will be in 4th or even 5th by the time you are doing 30 on a suburban cul-de-sac! |
Yep. Guilty. Though 4th. I’ve never used 5th. As I’ve only ever been a pedestrian, anything over 30mph seems really fast. Have always been worried 5th will be akin to ‘warp’ so have never used it!
Thanks again people. Much appreciated. |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 07:46 - 27 May 2016 Post subject: |
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Oh, this is a brand new YBR? That is a bind. It does (OK Tef, you win this round) want to be revved much higher than you'd rev a car. I ran my 125 in gently and regretted it because it does leave you struggling in the wrong gear.
Dong it over, I'd just ignore the running in advice, ride it the way it should be ridden, then do some early oil changes to get any initial swarf out. It only takes a litre or so of whatever 10W40 oil is cheapest at Tesco and you're not going to harm it by over-changing the oil.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Saraya |
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Saraya
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| Aceslock |
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Aceslock
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| Posted: 09:34 - 27 May 2016 Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 12:56 - 27 May 2016 Post subject: |
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| Saraya wrote: | I’ve been googling ‘how to clean a motorcycle’ |
When to clean it is just before its MOT, whether it needs it or not, so you've got 3 years to figure it out.
Sorry, not a clue. I will say that if you're going to keep it through winter, then ACF-50 really does help to keep corrosion at bay. It's expensive stuff, but cheaper than the parts that it's protecting.
| Saraya wrote: | I’ve got ‘WD40 specialist motorbike chain wax’. Is that stuff ok? |
Dunno, I've only ever used oils rather than wax, and I just use whatever's handy: engine, gear, chainsaw.
If you're going to use the wax, I'd apply it after a ride so that the chain is warmish, and I'd probably run a heat gun or hairdryer over it to help the lube penetrate deep into the tight holes. Which is less mucky than it sounds. We'll, it's exactly as mucky, but that's the intention. It needs to get inside the rollers to have any benefit.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| hellkat |
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hellkat
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hellkat
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| Posted: 09:27 - 28 May 2016 Post subject: |
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Congratulate yourself, though.
You instigated a full-on Teffers instructional posting bout of really quite biblical proportions.
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 15:21 - 28 May 2016 Post subject: |
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| Saraya wrote: | Though with regard to using the revs; |
To be honest, I didn't think the YBR HAD a rev counter However, you certainly don't need to pay it much heed.
What you need to do, is use the full rev range and get a innate 'feel' for the power delivery
Small 'aside' on the matter of mechanical sympathy, and the likelihood of the bike doing a impression of a mills grenade:-
These little engines are made tuff, and pretty much don't make enough power to do themselves any great harm! They'll rev and rev until they don't, running out of 'puff' long before they are in any danger of springs and stuff making a bid for freedom.
My yoof was mis-spent as a pit-lane 'gopher'; I used to earn my entry to bike & car races making 'myself useful' going-fer the teas, going-fer the paperwork, putting away the spanners and 'stuff'. Learned my mechanics at the elbows of blokes in sheds building 'hot' Ford cross-flow or Austin Mini A-Series engines, for everything from Formula Ford 'open-wheeler' cars or rally, grass-track or hill-climb & sprint; or bikes.. lots of two-smoke Yamaha & Suzuki's in them days and air-cooled 'four's... [bisto] ah.... sorry let me take the reminiscence-spex off....
I my experience, engines almost NEVER 'explode'. Certainly not brand new ones straight from the factory!
'Tuned' for racing, idea is to extract as much power from them as you can; so components are strategically 'weakened'... sorry 'lightened', and then subjected to loadings far higher than the factory every intended, with compression ratio's raised and cam-shafts and porting changed so they don't run out of puff so soon.. and THEN they go rev the nuts off them, trying to go that bit quicker than the ext guy, and hope that their engine stays together just that bit longer!! It's almost an exercise in trying to kill engines!
But STILL catastrophic engine failures tend to be pretty rare.
If they go 'bang', it's usually a mechanical fault or error in 'build', rather than driver/rider 'over-rev'..
And IF internal engine components take a sight-seeing trip through the crank-cases..... back to your 'jerky' down shifts... catastophic engine failure is most likely to occur closing the throttle, rather than opening it.
Under acceleration, the forces at play are being generated inside the engine burning petrol, and at higher revs, the force from each 'bang' in the engine tends to be getting smaller; at higher revs the engine needs to suck more air in to the engine to burn the petrol, but like I say, they start to run out of 'puff', the ports and passages and stuff are struggling to completely fill the cylinder each 'cycle' so at higher revs, more often, the cylinder is 'less' full, so a smaller 'bang', and you get extra power from the higher revs burning that 'less' fuel more often; so the loadings on components tend to stay inside their 'limits' of strength.
When engines 'let go', it's when the forces on them come from outside the engine... engine braking brakes engines! Then rather than just having what energy they can make burning petrol, available to apply gross loadings, they have a 'store' of energy they have already made in the 'momentum' of having propelled the vehicle up to whatever speed, now driving the engine over.. and if you 'bang down' a gear.. well the lower reduction fro the new gearing, will want t make the engine spin up to perhaps twice the revs it was before, and you have all that momentum to force it up there, as long as the tyres grip!
On a bike, that's often the 'fail-safe'. Bikes being that much lighter, and shorter, and subject to 'dive' under breaking, that can actually lift the back wheel off the floor, the tyre just doesn't grip and force the engine into 'over-rev', it 'slips' ad the tail 'skids' like locking the back wheel, only without fully locking it.. it's still turning, just half the speed of the road travelling underneath it.
More common in cars, that do have the weight to keep the tyres on the floor, and so much more momentum to drive the engine into over-rev, and usually much smaller rev-ranges, and bigger differences in the 'gearing' ratio, so say coming down from 4th to 3rd, a driver might, i haste' bang it into 1st instead of 3rd, and the engine that was possibly turning 2,500 revs ad expected to be motored up to 5K 'red-line' by the down shift, is motored instead up to 10K... twice its 'safe' rev limit, some-where it would never get under its own steam, but that momentum 'reserve' can drive it.. THEN bits can go bang!
But, like I said, it's a very rare 'thing' ad tends only, and even then, pretty seldom, to only happen in 'competition', and to more highly modded motors, not stuff that's factory standard, and more of a problem for cars than bikes.
To all practical extents and purposes, you can be fairly confident that your little YBR is 'almost' indestructible... at least as far as tolerating any 'rider numptyness' you might inflict upon it!
You CAN kill'em! It is far from 'impossible'. But it takes some pretty significant amounts of numptyness! Lots of ridig 'abuse' coupled to lots of mechanical neglect, and significant 'wear and tear' will usually do it... but even then.... those little things will probably only give up the ghost, and most likely go out with a whimper rather than a 'bang' when it has NO oil left in the engine and it just stops turning!
But back to the smooth down-shift issue; so many folk are 'alarmed' by the idea of opening the throttle and letting the engine rev-out, scared that it will do itself damage.. yet, while scared of that infinitesimally, almost statistically impossible 'risk'... they short shift up the box, drive the engine at low revs while powering, and then 'bang down' to slow, and incite the 'engine braking brakes engines' situation, almost without thought, in consequence, 'banging down' the box, in a hurry to undo all the short shifts they needn't have made.
So, another reason for using the revs, not the gears, it IS 'easier' o the engine, and the transmission, and the bike will appreciate the 'mechanical mercy' even f it doesn't feel like you are being particularly mechanically sympathetic!
| Saraya wrote: | being scared sideways at the talk on the ‘dangers of new tyres’ |
Err... contentious subject that one.... its a big fear Snowie has.... and one I have not made too much effort to allay, I have to admit.... mainly because she insists, I go 'scrub them in' for her...INSISTS I say! And who am I to refuse a lady? I get to take her bike out and ride the wheels off it for a couple of hours to take the 'bloom' off the rubber! Though I have to wonder why she always seems to be stood next to the family filing cabinet and looking rather disappointed when I get back..... 
However... yeah... ish... when they make a tyre, they have a big metal mould, and before they squirt the rubber in and cook it to make it set, they spray the mould with a 'release agent'.. its sort of a mix of oil and washing up liquid.. but same principle as greasing the tin before you bake a cake... stops it sticking to the tin, so you can take it out when cooked. So a brand new tyre 'can' be a little greasy.
Suggestion you take it 'easy' for the first 100 miles, is a bit nebulous. release 'bloom' in over the whole tyre tread. It probably gets worn off in a few wheel turns.. maybe a mile or two at most, at least enough to expose the 'better' rubber beneath. But bikes 'lean'; take it 'easy' for 500 miles, if you don't lean the damn thing and scrub the bloom off the sides of the tyres, it wont 'help' much!
Meanwhile.. the difference in 'grip' from that bit of release bloom and being 'scrubbed in', is not very much... certainly not on a typical harder compound touring tyre. Likely to be more pronounced on a super-soft sports compound tyre... but your bike?
Its a YBR... renowned for having super-long-life 'economy' tyres so dam hard they are frequently accused of lacking grip in the dry, let alone the wet! The mould-bloom, ould pretty much be the least of my worries on one of them! They MAY have changed the OE Fit tyres 'cos of the complaints.. but I doubt t....
However, if you want 'confidence' and it is supposed to make a night and day difference on the YBR.. book it n for a par of 'decent' euro brand tyres, like Mitchelin Pilots come the first service... shouldn't be more than about £90 for the pair, and the real extra grip they have, even with new tyre mould bloom, will be very very useful!
Once fitted, go find some country roads to get it swinging a bit and put some lea on to scrub the sides as well as the middle of the tyre, and just be a bit gentle, not heavy braking or accelerating (if such a thing be possible on a YBR!), try and do it at nice constant speed for 20 miles or so, ten out ad ten back, and the tyres should be 'good' for anything the roads chuck at them from then on..
| Saraya wrote: | I then got told to try and ensure that I keep the revs under 5 for the first few weeks. ; |
I have only ever owned one brand new motorbike, and that was a two-stroke. I have to admt I followed the 'run-in' advice diligently for the prescribed 1,5oo miles and in the three years I had it, it apparently 'paid off' the dealer who serviced it commenting on how 'willing' the motor was compared to others they supplied, and not sufferng so many faults... though that may have been as much to my restraint in not trying to 'tune' or 'de-restrict' the little bugga.
Engineering reasoning for 'run-in' has pro and con camps, and whether its beneficial or so important is a matter of much opinion.
Personally I think its worth it; whether the prescribed instructions are good is another matter.
5000rpm is a pretty nebulous idea; you could set the tick-over to 5K revs and leave it ruing o the centre stand for a few hours with 'no-load' and likely do more damage or less good than ragging the shit out the thingon the road for twenty minutes!
Its not how fast the engine turns, its the heat and the load ad 'everything'...
Like taking the mould bloom off tyres, principle is to bed in the moving parts, get the initial 'wear' on them to that they loosen up; run t too hard so it gets too hot, and bits move with too much force and not enough motion, and you can get things tightening up and wear making them too loose; it's a 'balence' thing, and not so much being a slave to the tacho, as simply being a bit 'considered' n the first outings.
Personally, I would use 'ruing in' as an excuse to get out and do some country miles, where I could take it fairly easy, get miles under its wheels at reasonably constant speeds, not too much load, not too much heat but lots of motion.
Rather than try and run it in round town, with lots of stop start around the streets, lots more 'load' under repeated acceleration from junctions and stuff, and more heat from less 'wind' keeping that little air-coooled motor from getting hot under the collets.
And do a couple of early oil changes, if I didn't leave that to the dealer at the 1000 mile service.... though likely I'd DIY it after the 1000 mile service to be sure it HAD been done!
Till then? Well, yeah, probably not such a great idea to rev t to the red-line every time you pull out of a T-Junction.. but I wouldn't be too coy about using the revs, 'gently' under part load, part throttle, maybe 'trying' to keep it under 5K for the first 100 miles you have already done, and lifting that 1000rpm every 100 miles or so after until you can use the full rev range, with greater abandon, but, as said, don't be too worried about it.
| Saraya wrote: | I’m finding it hard actually, as I’m already trying to learn so much new stuff with riding, road craft and Highway Code – that having to watch the rev counter too is rather pesky. |
STOP THINKING - START RIDING
You will learn far more, and it will make far more sense, by getting out and getting miles under them wheels than you will reading a book... particularly Road-Craft, which is WAY above your level right now.
If you must have something to read, I would suggest "The Official DVSA Guide to Learning to Ride Book".. its "Road-Craft for Dummies", tailored explicitly for a newbie, and doesn't go into lots of extraneous detail on points of finesse you don't need to know about and is like only to confuse you ad give you more to store in the worry-warehouse!
Otherwise; get smart, get a lesson! Trying to learn DIY, its the school of hard-knocks. Don't teach you how to do stuff 'right'.. just punishes you for getting it 'wrong'. And book-learning just gives you ideas, which as a newby, you might ot even realise are possibly BAD ones, for you!
Get a lesson. Instructor can see what you do good, and tell you so. see what you do not so good, and tell you what to do to do it better. You will much more quickly get your confidence up, being told, by some-one qualified to do so, how you are doing, than having to 'guess' by "Well that didn't go too well.. I wonder why?"
Hope that helps.
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| Posted: 20:05 - 28 May 2016 Post subject: |
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Jesus Mike 
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| Posted: 22:13 - 28 May 2016 Post subject: |
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Did he just sperg essentially the same post two... maybe three times?
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GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Posted: 06:20 - 29 May 2016 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | that can actually lift the back wheel off the floor, |
*note to self* Never use front brake!
| Quote: | Ride. Don't clean. |
Yes ma’am.
| Quote: | then ACF-50 really does help to keep corrosion at bay. |
Thanks Roger.
Excellent. Halfords has that. I’ll go torment the youngster again – and tell him I got all mucky after using his lube.
As always, I’m very grateful for all the advice. You guys are teasing Tef and I’m going to sound like the student that always gives the teacher an apple, but…
I’ve learned far more about bikes, riding and how a bike actually works from this forum, than I did from my CBT and reading the Highway Code and ‘Motorcycling for Dummies’. (That book was disappointing as it was written for a US audience.)
The explanation on tyres has especially helped my newbie riding. Leaning on the bike was one of the scarier parts of my novice intro and CBT. That doubled after the ‘new tyres’ talk. It made me terrified of turning at junctions and resulted in me swinging out too far the opposite way before turning – or skating pretty close to the central white line, when joining the new road – in my bid to stay upright and not lean.
After reading that, I felt a bit braver and did a 6 mile bimble, letting the bike do what felt more natural – and lean. My ride went a lot more smoothly and I managed to do all the turns, staying in the centre of the road. This meant I felt like I was riding the bike, rather than wrestling with it. Which resulted in my first ever ride with a grin on my face, instead of the usual prayer followed by “oh cr*p, oh cra*p” as I took each turn.
You lot are awesome. Thank you. |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 9 years, 233 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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