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Student loan run aways should be arrested on return.

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Itchy
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PostPosted: 01:17 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Student loan run aways should be arrested on return. Reply with quote

https://www.independent.co.uk/student/istudents/arrest-graduates-who-avoid-repaying-their-student-loan-new-zealand-hepi-university-debt-a7162651.html

New Zealand apparently does it. After all the people taking out the loans made an implicit agreement to pay it back. If they run away then they're essentially making everybody else pay for it.

What say you?
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 01:35 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shouldn't it be treated as any other form of loan in this regard?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 02:45 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have the junior doctors who went on strike left the country yet?
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 05:12 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's someone I used to know that I would love to see this happen to.

Skipped out on a bunch of student loans, and owing me about £1500.
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 05:50 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take the time to read the article, and you will see the real issues behind it.

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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 06:01 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

There would be a definite hypocrisy here as you would have a multi-millionaire like Dave Cameron, who got free uni tuition from the state, sending cops to arrest some working class person from a council estate for walking out on their tuition fees which he tripled.
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G
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PostPosted: 08:02 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, I'd say the real issues are people saying things like:
Quote:
That being said, what Hepi fails to recognise is that, in the UK, you have to go to university in order to guarantee you’ll have a high earning job.

Not really.

We have, I believe, too many University Graduates.
We certainly have many, many people that still go through university without gaining a massive amount of useful knowledge.
And this is in a system where people get a significant debt accrued from it.

Despite many pushing the 'social mobility' angle; these days you often find it's the kid that starts off as a plumber's mate at 16 that's got the big house and nice life style when they've got their own business at 25.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:10 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Criminalising student debt avoidance sounds like a great idea. I can't think of a better use of my tax money than arresting, prosecuting, trialling and incarcerating some Gender Studies graduate barely making a pay-back salary, therefore making them (even more) unemployable and putting them on benefits for life.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 10:26 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't do something ye canny afford to finance. Don't criticise the student lone schemes then let Senga pump out as many weans/sprogs as she can whilst on benefits.

Or rather, criticise the Benefits scheme more to save money in order to educate the masses out of poverty breeding existence.

If there's to be parity let's make it fair.

And another thing.....
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:00 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Re: Student loan run aways should be arrested on return. Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
After all the people taking out the loans made an implicit agreement to pay it back.


Can't exactly say I'm up to speed on contract law but there was a huge amount of hype over George Osborne altering student loan agreements retrospectively.

- https://thetab.com/uk/student/2016/05/23/george-osborne-going-make-repay-maintenance-grant-loan-3807
- https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/nov/25/osborne-student-loan-tuition-fees-university-higher-education-autumn-statement
- https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/12017603/George-Osborne-branded-disgraceful-over-plan-to-make-graduates-pay-back-more-of-their-loans.html
- https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3381631/Osborne-faces-legal-action-row-student-loan-payments-froze-level-repayments.html

Martin Lewis of MoneySavingExpert.Com wrote:
It’s an absolute disgrace and a breach of trust to do retrospective changes to a loan agreement. A commercial company would not have been allowed to do this so, for the chancellor to do it, knowing that there is no regulator who can come and slap him, is a disgrace. And the people who are going to pay for this are the current and future students.



And let's not forget what Osborne used to think: "Tuition fees are a tax on learning."

So I wonder how it would stand up in court if things were pushed that way? At least for someone who was affected by Osborne's alterations.

You can argue for whichever side you like but as far as the leviathan of society goes, it's a all a game, the rules of which you need to play in your favour. Hell, plenty of others do. If a student can get away with escaping their loan repayments then all power to them. Funny how students are hated for doing it, while massive corporate tax avoidance is largely shrugged off because 'no laws were broken'. Interesting to see where the public's allegiances seem to lie these days.
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 12:13 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Re: Student loan run aways should be arrested on return. Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Funny how students are hated for doing it, while massive corporate tax avoidance is largely shrugged off because 'no laws were broken'. Interesting to see where the public's allegiances seem to lie these days.


Terrible analogy since corporate tax avoidance is not largely shrugged off. Yes the issue is that laws are not necessarily broken but that doesn't mean the issue is thought of as OK by the public.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 13:07 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I saved up and paid off mine in one lump sum (that was a dark day), but higher education for a lot of people's a con. Crap uni's pushing worthless degrees where you end up working in Tesco.

I bailed after a year when I realised the lecturers didn't have a clue (I genuinely mean this), despite being a BSc it was completely useless, and most people were only there for a visa.

A friend did complete his and now works security... in Tesco. If a degree doesn't differentiate between people (because everyone's got a BS degree), or the quality's so bad it doesn't prepare you at all for a job in the field, then it's a waste of time.

In that situation I fully understand why you would bail on your student debt, rather than spending years in a low paid job paying it off.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 13:37 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

My understanding is that it was a part of the agreement for a student loan that there were get out clauses from paying for it (moving abroad, or not earning enough to pay it back for a long time being some of them). In which case it would need to be retrospectively introduced.

Tbh, while I can see the attraction, I am more inclined to suggest that it is a sign of a very badly implemented scheme. Setting things up so there is a major financial incentive for graduates to move abroad seems lunacy.

All the best

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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 14:23 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Re: Student loan run aways should be arrested on return. Reply with quote

The Artist wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
Funny how students are hated for doing it, while massive corporate tax avoidance is largely shrugged off because 'no laws were broken'. Interesting to see where the public's allegiances seem to lie these days.


Terrible analogy since corporate tax avoidance is not largely shrugged off. Yes the issue is that laws are not necessarily broken but that doesn't mean the issue is thought of as OK by the public.


Certain people on here have argued that tax avoidance is absolutely fine, while at the same time saying individuals who do what they can, within the law, to maximise their gains - benefit claimants, student loan runners, etc - are something apparently worse.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 14:26 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:


Tbh, while I can see the attraction, I am more inclined to suggest that it is a sign of a very badly implemented scheme. Setting things up so there is a major financial incentive for graduates to move abroad seems lunacy.



Precisely. While it's easy to blame individuals for not doing 'the right thing', the fault really rests on those who set these things up.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 14:27 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Re: Student loan run aways should be arrested on return. Reply with quote

Potential student loan welcher detected Very Happy

Lord Percy wrote:
Certain people on here have argued that tax avoidance is absolutely fine,





Avoidance is legal. Evasion isn't.

But isn't it quite clear that they signed up to an agreement including the part that if they move overseas they MUST tell the SLC and arrange for payments from overseas.

So on contract law it's an easy Breach of contract. Since it's breach of contract against a government body, it's similar to non payment of council tax or income tax?

Lord Percy wrote:
Precisely. While it's easy to blame individuals for not doing 'the right thing', the fault really rests on those who set these things up.


How so? You make an agreement you stick to it. In saying oh its the system you sound terribly like one of those BLM activists.
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 14:34 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Re: Student loan run aways should be arrested on return. Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:

Certain people on here have argued that tax avoidance is absolutely fine, while at the same time saying individuals who do what they can, within the law, to maximise their gains - benefit claimants, student loan runners, etc - are something apparently worse.


Tax avoidance is fine. The issue lies with the government to close loop holes. It doesn't mean people are OK with corporations paying less tax but no one blames the corporations for this. Well, they shouldn't. Laughing

People who take a loan out and then don't pay it back would be better compared to tax evasion than avoidance.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 14:40 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about having their degree annulled then? If they do their due diligence and or provenance should check with the issuing university the authenticity of the qualification.

If they don't pay then it gets invalidated and the degree cert becomes one of those novelty degrees.

If one party doesn't meet the obligations then nor does the other side have to.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 14:45 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Re: Student loan run aways should be arrested on return. Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Potential student loan welcher detected Very Happy

Lord Percy wrote:
Certain people on here have argued that tax avoidance is absolutely fine,





Avoidance is legal. Evasion isn't.

But isn't it quite clear that they signed up to an agreement including the part that if they move overseas they MUST tell the SLC and arrange for payments from overseas.

So on contract law it's an easy Breach of contract. Since it's breach of contract against a government body, it's similar to non payment of council tax or income tax?

Lord Percy wrote:
Precisely. While it's easy to blame individuals for not doing 'the right thing', the fault really rests on those who set these things up.


How so? You make an agreement you stick to it. In saying oh its the system you sound terribly like one of those BLM activists.


Haha. Well my point was more relating to the fact that Osborne changed the goalposts so why can't the students take liberties too? Not that they should, but there's surely some point that could be argued if they tried. Osborne was the first to breach the contract, surely.

Regarding systems and contracts that are supposed to be stuck to. Well, looking across to the thread about power stations and the Chinese stealing designs once they've got hold of them. Was there a breach of contract there? Surely yes. But they got away with it. So in the really grand scheme of things, you have to ask what anything at all really means if a person can get away with taking a shit on it while coming away unscathed Wink

But yes overall I get the point. A person should certainly do what they agree to. The above paragraph is more a philosophical conjecture.
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hmmmnz
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PostPosted: 16:05 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

about a year ago my mate was returning home to nz, and had to pay $5000 when he landed, for his out standing student loans,

i paid mine off quite a while back, then got a bill for extra, for the time i spent out of the country.

its all a bit heavy handed in my opinion,

really education should be free, especially considering how left wing nz is
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Sload
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PostPosted: 16:34 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is to be gained by criminalising these people? Would this increase the chances of recovering the loans at all?

Is this just a drive to try to reduce potential applicants?

hmmmnz wrote:
really education should be free, especially considering how left wing nz is


Nothing is free, not a damn thing. We do pretty well in the UK with the indoctrination camps I mean schools being free*. Expecting free uni is a bit like sticking your hands into other peoples purses and wallets.

*I'm being a dick Laughing
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M.C
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PostPosted: 17:52 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sload wrote:
Expecting free uni is a bit like sticking your hands into other peoples purses and wallets.

So what do the Scots do? Smile

In terms of education we've gone backwards, at least when you had grammar schools and free higher education some people got a sodding chance. It wouldn't work now obviously, too many people doing too many worthless degrees.
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G
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PostPosted: 18:07 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sload wrote:
ticking your hands into other peoples purses and wallets.

M.C wrote:

So what do the Scots do? Smile


Indeed!


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Sload
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PostPosted: 18:08 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aye, wasn't debating the morals of it.
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Dave500
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PostPosted: 18:35 - 31 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's wrong with the current system? If that is the cost to go to uni then that is the cost you either pay in full or get the student loan out for.
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