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Sine Cycles, e-Chopper

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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 07:54 - 26 Aug 2016    Post subject: Sine Cycles, e-Chopper Reply with quote

Some say riding a chopper is about freedom, others would say it's all about the rumbling noise of a V-twin, virbration from the crankshaft and smell of a huge aircooled engine, well not anymore I guess. I present to you a electric powered chopper, no noise, no vibration, no smell, no freedom (very limited range). Thinking Laughing

Made by Swiss engineer Bruno Forcell (Sine Cycles), the frame is an old unsprung Cleveland CycleWerks frame, the air cooled battery pack and engine are from the Zero Motorcycles. The tank hides the regulators and other bits.

57 Nm of torque at the rear wheel, top speed 120 km/h, the range of 55 km. Price not specified, the one in the pictures is a prototype, but Mr. Forcell claims there are already people that would like to buy such motorcycle.

https://www.motorkari.cz/upload/images/clanky/2016-08/34845/sine_cycles_electric_chopper_1.jpg

https://www.motorkari.cz/upload/images/clanky/2016-08/34845/sine_cycles_electric_chopper_2.jpg

https://www.motorkari.cz/upload/images/clanky/2016-08/34845/sine_cycles_electric_chopper_4.jpg

https://www.motorkari.cz/upload/images/clanky/2016-08/34845/sine_cycles_electric_chopper_6.jpg

https://www.motorkari.cz/upload/images/clanky/2016-08/34845/sine_cycles_electric_chopper_11.jpg
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andyscooter
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PostPosted: 08:25 - 26 Aug 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

so now you can be a ecomentalist and ghey all at the same time


god damn hipsters going to love this
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UnknownStuntm...
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PostPosted: 08:27 - 26 Aug 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks tidy enough. Good torque figure. Is bobber. When it's a bike with suspension and the price doesn't make people cry, we'll talk.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:30 - 26 Aug 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

That actually looks all right, and it's unlikely to be significantly heavier or less usable than the original.
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UnknownStuntm...
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PostPosted: 08:53 - 26 Aug 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
That actually looks all right, and it's unlikely to be significantly heavier or less usable than the original.

I see what you did there.
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G
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PostPosted: 09:15 - 26 Aug 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

UnknownStuntman wrote:
Good torque figure.

Not that great - I just missed getting an hub motor for £140 (rrp price around £300) that would have offered around 80-90Nm of torque.
Seperately looking for some motors to power a trailer - some that I were looking at would have 120-150nm I believe.

Torque means nothing with out rpm... aka power Smile.

On that - This seems like a completely wasted opporunity to use a hub motor. Normally you want to keep the rear wheel as light as possible so the suspension works better.
With no suspension, you might as well have the motor there.
It saves all those pesky chain/belts/etc.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 10:01 - 26 Aug 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, they don't say a thing about the battery, but I would imagine the figures he gets are about the best what the motorcycle can do and remain at least 55 km range, which might be a very optimistic number achievable only at very special circumstances.

I think G is right, I'd fit a hub motor and used the empty space to fill it with as many batteries as I could to get more power and range out of the system.
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Alpineandy
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PostPosted: 12:00 - 26 Aug 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

They can still wear the leather tassels.
but without the engine vibs they'll have to 'insert' it another way.
Laughing
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Snowdonia Rider
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PostPosted: 12:00 - 26 Aug 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

No petroleum, no likey.
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kerr
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PostPosted: 20:07 - 26 Aug 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guy sat on it does not look happy about it Laughing
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:26 - 26 Aug 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

kerr wrote:
Guy sat on it does not look happy about it Laughing

Trying so hard to be b-b-bad to the b-b-bone. So try hard, so Britabroad.
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carpe_diem
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PostPosted: 08:35 - 27 Aug 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also I bet that seat is murder on his barse. Never mind increasing the range; would you want to ride more than 55km on that? Your perineum would be black and blue.
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Sable
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PostPosted: 07:36 - 28 Aug 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

55km range? That isn't even a days commuting... Could they have not made a little more effort with the battery?
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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 10:43 - 28 Aug 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sable wrote:
55km range? That isn't even a days commuting... Could they have not made a little more effort with the battery?

Couldn't they put a couple of 'panniers' on it containing extra batteries? Theoretically that would treble the range?
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G
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PostPosted: 12:29 - 28 Aug 2016    Post subject: Re: Sine Cycles, e-Chopper Reply with quote

Unless they're using lead acid, not sure how they managed quite such a low range with such a big lump there.

Could be there's loads of unused space there.
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talkToTheHat
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PostPosted: 21:07 - 10 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

looking happy on a cruiser is prohibited. It's the risk of flies in the teeth from the open face helmet or complete lack of.

55km isn't enough for a decent shakedown ride, booty call, day out or other recreational use for a motorcycle. Maybe it's too far on a hardtail for modern sensitive backsides. Achievable easily on pedal iron before school/uni when I as young, bored and had nothing better to do.

What we have here is therefore more use as a coffee table, and only then for one cup of coffee from a tasssimo or starbucks, so thsoe who use a cafetiere, don't live alone or even own a tv remote are going to have to look elsewhere.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 13:31 - 16 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

UnknownStuntman wrote:
Good torque figure

Electric motors usually quote quite stupendous torque figures, as standards measure it off the out-put shaft, where its quite frequently magnified from what the motor actually makes by compound 'planet gear' or three.

Fixed washing-machine drive to the rear wheel will magnify that by about 3x more..... BUT, compared to a something with an infernal combustion engine, and a selectable ratio gear-box?

CG125 delivers 10Nm of torque at the crank..... revs to about 10K; rear wheel at 60mph probably turns about 100rpm, so overall reduction in top-gear will be something like 100:1....

Do the maths, and 47Nm x 3:1 final drive gives, lets call it 150Nm for even numbers.... A CG, in top, will be delivering something in the order of 1000Nm... and dropping a cog or three will magnify that two of three times!

e-choppa's torque isn't so impressive when you work it out, is it?

Maybe available from zero revs; but even so, you are talking about something with barely the 'stomp' of a half decent moped..... and 55Km range!?!?!

Geez! I had a DT50 many many MANY moons ago, that had been dropped so many times by a succession of previous teen owners the tank held more filler than petrol, and unless I ran it onto reserve, I struggled to meet the '2l minimum delivery' of the petrol pumps!!! Less than half a gallon, though was still enough to get me to and from tech, for almost a week, about 80 miles!

Hmmmm... so, its slower than a beat-up old moped; it's got less range than a beat up old moped; its a damn site more expensive than a beat up old moped... and it LOOKS like something that has happened in my shed, when I have run out of old Super-Dreams to torture, and decided to see what would happen if I crossed one of the kids old push-bikes with one of the abandoned washing machines!!!!!!

The major technical break-through here is?
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UnknownStuntm...
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PostPosted: 13:44 - 16 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
CG125 delivers 10Nm of torque at the crank..... revs to about 10K; rear wheel at 60mph probably turns about 100rpm, so overall reduction in top-gear will be something like 100:1....

Do the maths, and 47Nm x 3:1 final drive gives, lets call it 150Nm for even numbers.... A CG, in top, will be delivering something in the order of 1000Nm... and dropping a cog or three will magnify that two of three times!

e-choppa's torque isn't so impressive when you work it out, is it?

Er, what? A CG with 1000 torques? I suspect you either are a maths teacher or an illusionist. (Offtopic, what colour would you say black was?)

The book figure of the electric bike is five times that of a CG. That's what I mean is impressive. A KTM Duke 390 is listed at about 35Nm. 55 is more than 35. That's what I'm comparing. A real world "whooshthisthingispickingupspeedfasterthanigavecreditfor" factor.

I know it's never going to pull anyone's pants off, but the figures look good.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:55 - 16 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vifferguy wrote:
Maybe suit Roger when he becomes a biker!!!!!!!

I can't ever imagine myself having a bike.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 15:02 - 16 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
spurious math and hyperbole


In your fictional example of a cg you worked out the wheel torque based off of a rear wheel speed of 100 rpm @ 60 mph if this were so, then the rear wheel would be going round 1.6 times every second whilst traveling at 60 mph.

You are in fact out by a factor pf 10 in your calculation.

Next the calculation you should have used is...

Torque (engine) x gear ratio x final drive ratio

So cg with 10nm x (first gear ratio) 2.769 x Final drive (44/14) 3.14

= 86 at the wheel, ignoring losses
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 15:27 - 16 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

UnknownStuntman wrote:
I know it's never going to pull anyone's pants off, but the figures look good.


Indeed the figures look good.. at first glance, or to any-one who doesn't know any better; but ONLY because they are using 'standards' that let them pick more flattering numbers... and show the more irrelevant and most flattering of them, and not the whole picture!!

Playing THAT game, you could probably find an electric screw-driver that can deliver more torque than a 1340 Harley!!! Just needs enough reduction in the 'in unit' planetary gear!!!

Akchully... 1340 Evo can deliver about 100Nm (its actually not all THAT impressive these days, is it?).... but...
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/rScAAOSwU-pXtZV~/s-l1600.jpg
Straight off the top of e-bay list; 14.4v, 145Nm!!!!
an electric screwdriver with more torque than a Big-Bore Harley..

And a comparison that's just as meaningless!!!
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dydey90
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PostPosted: 15:35 - 16 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an engineer, I really like this. It's so, so simple in everything. Look at the footpegs for example. They've just welding on a bar with a brake bolted to one side. There must be so little going on there that an apprentice could strip it back to the frame, throw all the bolts into one pot and have no trouble building it back up a week later.
Belt drive, no bodywork, no shocks. What maintenance would it need? Tyres, brake fluid and maybe check battery level depending on what type they've used.

As a buyer, however, there are a few things.
-The battery pack is ugly as sin. I don't know what it needs, but something needs doing to it to make it appear more mechanical.
-I've praised the simplicity above, but that battery pack is held on by what, four bolts? I could have that off in 30 seconds and I bet they're worth a bob or two.
-It's still a cruiser. Bring in the rake angle, maybe increase the height and make it feel more like a British classic and it'd be nicer. Although, Swiss designer, so I doubt he's even considered us as a market.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 16:13 - 16 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:

And a comparison that's just as meaningless!!!


maybe the guys at Sine can actually do maths and they worked out that torque figure as an equivalent to a IC engine output.

or maybe they did what you did and pulled some figures out of the air, and it really makes 10x more or less (acceptable margin for estimations)
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