Camper-van decision

[smegballs]

OK so my plan is to work thru the winter and save money, then drive around Europe next summer in a campervan. Budget will be 3-4k and I have access to free off-road parking so sorn'ing a vehicle isn't an issue. A preliminary search shows that in my price range there are basically two options: buy a van and convert it myself OR buy a late 80s/early 90s motorhome - Talbot express/fiat ducato etc

DIY Conversion
The Good

Can spread cost over a period of time rather than one big purchase cost
Newer bodies for the price so less problems with rust
Can be tailored exactly to my specs
Better fuel economy from more modern engines
Modern vehicle more comfortable on a long drive
High quality conversion should add a fair bit of value to van
Reliable (but failures are likely to be expensive - tcdi fault for example)

The Bad

Most vans in my price range are ex-tradie vans that will have been ragged hard
Higher mileage for vans in my price range
Pre common-rail vans getting pretty long in the tooth
Potential hassle with dvla re-registering as camper class

Old Motorhome

The Good

No hassle registering/insuring as motorhome
Simple points/carb engine should truck on forever
Can be used straight away
Lots of low milage examples
Cheap and readily available service parts all over Europe (due to Citroen/pug/fiat cross compatibility)
Should hold value for future re-sell

The Bad

Rusting on chassis due to age
Age-damage despite low miles - perished rubbers & brittle plastics
Poor fuel economy
Will need constant low-level maintenance to keep in good order (somewhat offset by simplicity compared to modern vehicles)

I'm not too worried about speed as I'll be trucking along at 50-55mph to try and keep fuel consumption minimised. I'll be taking a good set of tools with me for field-repairs. I want to avoid modern diesels with DMFs, common-rail injection etc as it's all expensive stuff to go wrong. A nice 90s tractor-stylee diesel is what I want, or the old petrol in a Talbot.

The general vibe I'm getting is that the old motorhome is more likely to have issues, but said issues are likely to be easy to fix myself. A modern van will be a lot more reliable, but if it does die, will likely cost a lot to repair.

What say you, wise folks of bcf?

[linuxyeti]

[duhawkz]

My first van was an H reg fiat ducato coach built motorhome, it was immaculate inside and out and had about 35k miles on it, it had been under sealed as well so there was no rust on the chassis.

The only thing that really let it down was the 1.9 petrol engine, it was completely underpowered for the van, it would cruise at 50 on flats but any struggled on any sort of incline.

If I were in your position i'd go for a purpose built van rather than self built, there are good ones about just need have a good look around, and if you haven't already got one buy a damp meter.
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[duhawkz]

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1645330245688647

If your not alreay a member, join the facebook group above stuff comes for sale there
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[smegballs]

Thanks for the replies guy, the EU breakdown cover is a good point. One of my mates built a really nice van that blew a head gasket in Portugal and was too expensive to bring home.

I've read about the damp meter too. The ones on eBay seem to be for checking moisture content of wood??

I met a guy in 2014 with a 1983 fiat down in Portugal and he assured me his old van would last forever as it had been gently driven around Europe at 50mph by oldies a it's life, he then took it over to Morocco and made it to Greece eventually I believe.

[faffergotgunz]

Motorhome all the way!

Keep it in good Knick and you'll be able to sell it for a similar price. Having a toilet, proper oven, bed ect, all ready to go will be priceless. You can then concentrate on fun and useful mods such as solar panel, USB sockets, decorating, winterizing ect...

To put it into perspective, our 1990 transit CI motorhome cost us 350 quid (mates rates mind). It leaked like a sieve, a few hundred later on the internals, some MOT prep and it's a peach.

The older engines are so easy to work on. Reliable for long trips (and fixable roadside). Ours is a n\a 2.5 diesel. No ECU ect, hit the starter motor with a hammer type thing. Make sure you service the belts, battery and oil, otherwise big van engines like that will go on for years.

As for fuel, 30mpg tops. Fuel is cheaper in Europe, so are Campsites, so no point worrying over 10mpg to be honest. You'll be spending more on booze and food. Even with 70hp and 2.3 tons, we cruise at 60mph, with the lorry's, it's a nice way to travel. Hills are fine due to 150 pound feet of torque. We've got up mountain passes in Switzerland and even Porlock Hill in Devon (all be it in 1st gear lol).

Parking is fine, once you get used to it they handle well for vans on the twisties too. Bit like a 125, just keep the speed up

Best thing we've ever bought a motorhome. 9k miles in Europe over 3 trips in 3 years. Opens up a World of fun. Average trip cost of 2 weeks is 2k all in. Fuel, stellplatz\campsites, booze, food and ferry. Visiting 6 countrys for two people, 2-3 weeks at 2k is cheap IMO!

A motorhoming Bible in Europe is "ReiseMobil Border Atlas" (eBay item 172356884916 for example for an old one). It's in German but easy to understand. Lists 100s of Campsites from zero cost to 20 euros a night for Germany and Europe. Literally put in the GPS details into the Sat nav and off you go.

With an old motorhome just make sure the roof doesn't leak (We use roofing rubber paint every year on it), the engine is services, take tools and spare bolts with you, good tyres and a spare wheel (plus know how to get it off the van and fit it - funny story there ), a good battery and a leisure battery (go with a gel type), some security for it aswell. You'll be good to go.

All we've had while abroad is the alternator bolt snap in Switzerland. Visit to a garage in the rain and 2 hours later it was back on with some threaded rod (luckily the belt was saved - take a spare), the exhaust mount failed this year, so I used some SWA cable to hang it back on lol.

Got a bit carried away on this post but one of my favourite past times!
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[J4mes]

Look at the kind of places you are going to be staying too - toilet and wash/shower facilities are a pain to add to a van compared to buying a camper. So if you're planning on staying places that have no facilities, you're going to want these things.

Not such an issue if you're on commercial sites or ones with reasonable facilities.

And on the breakdown front, if you buy something that's common on the continent there'll be no problems taking it to a local garage for repairs - just puts you out of action for a few days while they do. Obviously euro cover is expensive to buy in this country, but is it possible to buy it over there?

[duhawkz]

[Nb]

In that price range i'd say go for an older transit (mk5)or toyota hiace perhaps.They are both slow by modern standards but bomb proof reliable and will still cruise at 60mph with ear plugs in.
You can then build it to your plans and hopefully save some weight over a proper motorhome of a similar age, which from my experience of dealing with talbots and old ducatos that are heavy as hell and drive like a water balloon with wheels.
Newer vans in that price range will be ticking time bombs, and will pretty much all come with dmfs, common rail and egr and all that shite.
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[Alpineandy]

I can't add much here but would go for an older/mechanically simpler camper if it were me. Unless you're taking a family, a low roof/smaller body would probably be more manageable.
Then you have to work out how to secure the bike to it (or 'In It') .

I lost contact 4/5 years back with a friend that bought an old (late 80s rather than early 90s) Renault camper. It was low mileage and a really nice one but it turned out that it was real cheap for a reason. It had a badly chipped headlight and RHD headlamps were impossible to get hold of. Last thing I remember was that he was looking into fitting some round generic headlamps (VW??) in the rectangular headlamp holes and making some fibreglass fillets surrounds, so he could get an MOT.

So do some research on the base vehicle to make sure there aren't any unobtainable or horribly expensive bits needed to pass an MOT.
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[Robby]

I have nothing to add about motorhomes, but I would like to put in a vote for buying a German saloon with a large petrol engine and staying in hotels.

Motorhome is too close to camping, and camping is like volunteering to be a tramp.

[Kai.Wilson]

If it was me I'd buy a summit around 100k diesel miles lwb or extra long possible high roof and convert myself

Find cheap kitchen cupboards for units and a single or even a small double for bed a camp stove with them can gas and a camping shower (water in a bag to wash) and buy some bottle of water for super market

I just found my dream van... Search for yours via Auto Trader #DrivenByMe
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201610088557118

Plenty of space then not too modern with some power

[jowettdriver]

I did my own conversion a couple of years ago so here are some thoughts for you.

I bought a very cheap van £800 for an 16 year old Fiat Ducato. 2.5 turbo diesel, engine is actually an IVECO lump and generally regarded as being unbreakable and capable of a million miles if looked after. Mine has 220000 miles on the clock and runs like a new van still. I did do some preventative maintenance at the beginning of this year like changing engine mounts etc. I had a slight oil leak from the sump gasket, so I removed it to fit a new gasket and the insides of the engine looked like the day it came out of the factory. So I would say do not worry about buying a higher millage older (pre common rail etc.) van from a reliability point of view they really can take the mileage.

BUT.... Every year I do have to weld some more metal in to it. All Fiat van bodies were galvanised from the mid 90's onwards but this does not seem to stop the dreaded tin worm. I'm lucky that I have the ability and facilitys to weld, if I had to have paid someone to do it I'd have spent thousands by now on new sills, wheel arch inners, inner wings etc.

As far as a conversion goes, I bought a knackered caravan. Not that old but riddled with damp so I bought it for £300. I stripped out a wealth of parts, not just the obvious like the kitchen moldings, cassette toilets, windows and skylights but also little things like hinges and catches. Small but they add up if you start buying them individually. All in, including the van, my unit stands me in at £3000

The other main consideration is the time involved. Working a normal 5 day week, I basically gave up 6 months of my life to build it. Every evening and every weekend I spent outside working on it.

I don't want this to become a Tef post so i'll stop here. If you want to know more, I'm happy to share my experiences and any advice, its not the easy route but if you buy right you can save a lot of money.

Cheers Tim.

Also, head over to https://sbmcc.co.uk/forum/ and have a look, a wealth of self build info on there!
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[Polarbear]

Join the Caravan club.

There is a wealth of knowledge, deals etc. and they cater for motorhomes as well as caravans.
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[hmmmnz]

my 2 cents,
history: 2 van conversions (delica and mazda b2000 lwb high roof)
1 people mover conversion (toyota estima)
and 1 old merc motorhome strip down and rebuild
(thread here )

currently helping a friend convert a small bus (merc 609d)

so essentially all conversions.

the downside to vans and the people mover was space.
thats it. for long term its a ball ache, you need to use camp grounds quite often so you can wash your balls,
and you have to set up the bed and take it down each day, (gets pretty annoying, to the point where you dont bother taking down the bed)

the upside is they are reasonably fast-ish can park easily in any car park, easy to get through small streets, etc etc

the old camper, old campers leak, unless they are well maintained or have been repaired, mine was so fucked it required a full strip down,
on the plus side the setup is pretty damn good,
bed above the cab is always set up, there is a decent-ish shower and toilet, a table with seats and a sofa, and has a decent amount of work space and storage.

down side is its big, slow and pretty ugly, but its as reliable as a vehicle could get, mines pretty much rust free as well, which is nice and always flys through the mot. mileage is pretty good as well, 25mpg


current bus conversion,
set up is bang on as there is loads of space, big bath room, diesel heater, log burner, sofas, drop down bed,
solar panels, decent sound system, etc etc
down side to that is it needs to be coneverted to motohome with dvla, it also needs a truck licence to drive it, and the conversion is about £10k and its still not finished and probably about 500-1000 man hours in it.


its hard to recommend 1 styl;e over another,
but if i was going to europe trip for months and months again, id be doing it in my old merc camper.

if i was going to winter through, then it would be the bus,

and if it was just a week or 2 then the vans

if it was just the weekend, then the estima people mover would win.
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[Polarbear]

Not quite the same thing but I'm sure you can draw parallels....

In the canal boat world you have the choice of second hand or a 'sail away' for the same sort of money. The sail away means a new hull and engine much like a conversion means a more modern van.

The thing is the amount of people that are still doing up their boat after a long period of time is immense. I don't think people grasp the amount of work involved and I would wonder the same thing on a conversion.

If you can keep the van on your drive and get out and easily work on it in the evening maybe it won't be too bad, but.....

My 2 penny worth. Buy a camper and tart it up where it needs it.
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[G]

What sort of things do you expect to be using/not using?

Also; I was always against caravans, but they do have lots of benefits, so more of a convert now.

While travelling you can't just lean into the back. But you can leave it somewhere setup then drive into a town without having to stow everything etc.

You should be able to get a very usable one from about £500, which gives you a good bit of cash to cover things like possibly higher ferry fees.
Insurance should be covered under normal car insurance, so probably a good bit cheaper.


I've thought before about getting a frugal hatchback (slipstreaming trucks I've had my the mpg on my clio diesel max out at over 99.9mpg), make a bed on the passenger side and have the basics with me. Shower at services, swimming pools, whatever.
Still have a good bit more stuff than bike touring, which I didn't find particularly limiting - and just need to find somewhere to park up and roll over to the other side, rather than setting up tents etc. (I'd go for blackout blinds all around though.)
With 100mpg, could make fuel, which was probably my biggest cost on the bike last a lot longer.

[nickyboy4]

Speaking from bitter experience, very few home built campers end up being finished, buy one that's already done and just titivate it a bit to keep you interested. Merc Sprinters are a good idea, i drive three different ones at work, all old shapers with 410k, 390k and 280k and they all earn a living plus anybody living anywhere in Europe knows somebody who can fix one if they go wrong!

[J4mes]

[smegballs]

Well the van is gonna be used mainly to drive around southern europe. Plan is to load it with friends, and do a big tour to loads of music festivals in europe, generally engaging in debauchery and degenerate behavior. As such I'm not anywhere near as particular as say a family wanting to take the kids on a tour around france for example. Mechanical reliability is more important to me than cosmetic condition.

Also given the operating environment of france/spain/portugal in the summer, we'll be spending most of the time outdoors, so the van is pretty much just a means to travel/sleep/cook.

A few specs that's I've come up with are:

-Min 4 belted seats
-Ability to sleep 4 people: I'm thinking double-bunkbed as top bunk can be a storage rack when not in use and will probs be able to easily sleep 6 passed out drunk people in a pinch
-Space for some kind of boat: a sea kayak or small RIB would be awesome. I'd want to just pull up by the sea and go off fishing for the day
-Shower: I'd be happy enough with a portable design I could whack on the outside of the van with magnets and power by a submersible pump in a bucket of water heated on a stove (or in the sun).

[Robby]

-Make sure it's rusty.
-Write "free candy" on the side.
-Get a bear costume.

[smegballs]

[MaybeGuy]

Minbus?
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Kickstart wrote: Hi I tend to agree with Matt. All the best Keith

[G]

I would still be considering, say, having a crew cab van towing a caravan. Get general 'stuff' in the van, RIB if needed, maybe push bikes/motorbikes etc.
Then you've got the living accommodation separated to keep it usable. Couple have fold down bunks in the van and maybe option to have some basic amenities so it can be used on it's own as required.



Are all four people heavy sleepers? Light sleepers with 4 people in a van will probably not be great for any light sleepers.

With my dog towards the front of my converted 7.5t lorry, I could feel him moving around while I was in bed in the back. (Dog is about 8 stone, but this is just turning around on his bed.)



To sleep 4 comfortably and squeeze in six, you're going to need a pretty big vehicle.

Roof rack might be the way to go for extra storage, but will be even worse on fuel.

I installed an on-demand heated shower in my caravan as it didn't have any shower (but did have a room for it with shower tray at least). On demand probably a better option for 4 people and means you can get hot water when you want, rather than waiting for a small tank to be heated.

[LustyLew]

Back in the early 00's lots of private ambulance providers used Sprinters. AS mentioned, very common and pretty quick. They has a phase of using upholstered seats and for some odd reason, the walls!

They already had 12v electrics in for lights, and some equipment, but now the CQC is around they are deemed unsuitable for ambulance work due to infection control etc.

There's probably still a few around for sale. The ones I crewed had three seats up front and two road worthy seats in the back that folded up and away.

Might be worth a punt if you can find one...
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