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Can an excessively worn bike key be cloned?

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Commuter_Tim
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PostPosted: 00:37 - 26 Nov 2016    Post subject: Can an excessively worn bike key be cloned? Reply with quote

I only have one key for my Bandit, it's visibly worn and takes some wiggling to turn her on.
If a key monkey copies it will the copy be based upon worn grooves?

Whilst were at it, where can I get a blank Bandit key?
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bugeye_bob
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PostPosted: 07:57 - 26 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

isn't there a number on the old key or the ignition?
if so just order a key from Suzuki.
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davebike
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PostPosted: 08:18 - 26 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Talk to a proper automotive locksmith is in the south east

Express keys near Orpington Kent

https://www.express-keys.co.uk/

Used by the trade
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Commuter_Tim
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PostPosted: 21:32 - 26 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

bugeye_bob wrote:
isn't there a number on the old key or the ignition?
if so just order a key from Suzuki.


Unfortunately not on the key, I was hoping to not have to strip the front and remove the barrel if at all possible.
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LongJohn22
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PostPosted: 15:12 - 27 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

davebike wrote:
Talk to a proper automotive locksmith is in the south east

Express keys near Orpington Kent

https://www.express-keys.co.uk/

Used by the trade


What Dave said, makes a whole lot of sense.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 15:36 - 27 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a worn out key re-cut and the guy did a grand job of it. The worn key would barely operate the ignition but the newly cut one made it work with a satisfying click and it didn't wobble and fall out.

Only problem is it was so long ago I can't remember where I had it done.
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 11:57 - 28 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any key cutter will do it. They do not copy the wear. Ebay for blanks.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 12:27 - 28 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

kramdra wrote:
Any key cutter will do it. They do not copy the wear. Ebay for blanks.


Eh? The cutting machine tracks the key profile, if there's wear on that then it'll copy across. I've had yale keys cut in the past from worn keys that just don't work.
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skatefreak
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PostPosted: 15:31 - 28 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

The majority of keys I've had cut (not by locksmiths, more like that place in the shopping centre that does shoes as well) use a machine that just follows the profile of the key you're copying.

I would bet that this would result in the worn portions being copied over as well.

There must be better ways of doing it I would have thought...

The only alternative I know of would be supplying the barrel and having a key cut from the barrel (O_o)
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Hong Kong Phooey
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PostPosted: 21:17 - 28 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might be cheaper to buy a full Chinese copy lock set, no personal experience of quality but I know they can be had for about £20 delivered.
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 23:22 - 28 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
kramdra wrote:
Any key cutter will do it. They do not copy the wear. Ebay for blanks.


Eh? The cutting machine tracks the key profile, if there's wear on that then it'll copy across. I've had yale keys cut in the past from worn keys that just don't work.


It only needs to track part of the profile.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 12:44 - 29 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

kramdra wrote:
It only needs to track part of the profile.


That's the important part of the profile, the various highs and lows that set the tumbler pins in the correct position for the barrel to be free to turn. If those are worn then the wear will also be copied.
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Fin
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PostPosted: 18:03 - 29 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

My key recently almost stopped working, I was trying to get the steering lock off for 2 minutes before the key worked properly.

I since rammed the lock full of grease and haven't had any issues, the cold weather could be causing a sticky lock.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 18:32 - 29 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grease can end up causing locks to stick. I'd flush that out with some solvent and put some graphite in there - you can buy it off of eBay or your local locksmith will have some. Thumbs Up
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 21:15 - 29 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
kramdra wrote:
It only needs to track part of the profile.


That's the important part of the profile, the various highs and lows that set the tumbler pins in the correct position for the barrel to be free to turn. If those are worn then the wear will also be copied.


True if you only went over the profile once but the guy that cut mine made a couple of adjustments in the clamp during cutting. I gave him the key, he took it, said 'no problem', spent a couple of minutes cutting a new key and it really did look like a fresh key. Worked well too.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 21:39 - 29 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete. wrote:


True if you only went over the profile once but the guy that cut mine made a couple of adjustments in the clamp during cutting. I gave him the key, he took it, said 'no problem', spent a couple of minutes cutting a new key and it really did look like a fresh key. Worked well too.


Sounds like the difference between a key cutting monkey and a proper locksmith that understands how things work. Thumbs Up
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 21:52 - 29 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

He was the type of old guy who looked over his specs at people, yes Very Happy
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iooi
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PostPosted: 09:34 - 30 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
kramdra wrote:
It only needs to track part of the profile.


That's the important part of the profile, the various highs and lows that set the tumbler pins in the correct position for the barrel to be free to turn. If those are worn then the wear will also be copied.


OP's Question...
"Can an excessively worn bike key be cloned?"

To which the answer is YES...... Shocked

Will it solve his problem, now that is a totally different question. Laughing

As Pete said. A good key cutter will be able to fix the problem. As well as supply the blank as well.

So when the OP walks upto the shop. If it's got a spotty youth in there, move onto the next one Thumbs Up

Some people do not read the question and then over think the wrong answer Wink
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 02:00 - 02 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
kramdra wrote:
It only needs to track part of the profile.


That's the important part of the profile, the various highs and lows that set the tumbler pins in the correct position for the barrel to be free to turn. If those are worn then the wear will also be copied.


No, the design of the key prevents any significant wear from being copied. If the operator is untrained or doesn't like you, yes he can copy the wear and make a bad copy. There are two areas that will get worn - uncut positions the same size as the blank (new blank/key fixes this) and the high corners of the V. Low points of the V will not wear. Any OE automotive key should have protective bumps where positions are the high point of the V, prevents them wearing.

Looking at several keys that have had a lot of use they are all like this, all good to make copies from, still have the nickel plating on the flats.
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janner_10
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PostPosted: 06:55 - 02 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try taking it to a decent key cutter and asking him. I had the old key for my Fazer copied, was about £7. Worth a punt. No drama.
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Commuter_Tim
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PostPosted: 20:59 - 02 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thumbs Up

Helpful thread has been helpful.
Buy a key online and find a keycutter unlike my usual one who looks like he wants to sell me a staffie/Stolen pitbike.

Alas Ebay doesn't appear to have a blank for a '95 Bandit.
They have 96+ keys but theyre £20+ and its a fair whack for a key if it's the wrong one.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 21:12 - 02 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

kramdra wrote:


No, the design of the key prevents any significant wear from being copied. If the operator is untrained or doesn't like you, yes he can copy the wear and make a bad copy. There are two areas that will get worn - uncut positions the same size as the blank (new blank/key fixes this) and the high corners of the V. Low points of the V will not wear. Any OE automotive key should have protective bumps where positions are the high point of the V, prevents them wearing.

Looking at several keys that have had a lot of use they are all like this, all good to make copies from, still have the nickel plating on the flats.


Sounds like bollocks to me. If you copy a profile, doesn't matter if it's a key or the skin of an orange, you copy the profile, regardless of wear.

A skilled operator could judge the level of wear and assume it's even across the length of the key and so offset the cutting blade to cut profile +.2mm (or example) but to be frank it sounds like you've read too much wikipedia.
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iooi
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PostPosted: 21:34 - 02 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Commuter_Tim wrote:
Thumbs Up

Helpful thread has been helpful.
Buy a key online and find a keycutter unlike my usual one who looks like he wants to sell me a staffie/Stolen pitbike.

Alas Ebay doesn't appear to have a blank for a '95 Bandit.
They have 96+ keys but theyre £20+ and its a fair whack for a key if it's the wrong one.


Get you blank from where you get it cut....

Any decent key cutting place has blanks for just about anything these days, or if they don't they can get it.

You don't say where you are located, If you did someone might recommend a decent key cutter to you.
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Commuter_Tim
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PostPosted: 21:42 - 02 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

iooi wrote:
Commuter_Tim wrote:
Thumbs Up

Helpful thread has been helpful.
Buy a key online and find a keycutter unlike my usual one who looks like he wants to sell me a staffie/Stolen pitbike.

Alas Ebay doesn't appear to have a blank for a '95 Bandit.
They have 96+ keys but theyre £20+ and its a fair whack for a key if it's the wrong one.


Get you blank from where you get it cut....

Any decent key cutting place has blanks for just about anything these days, or if they don't they can get it.

You don't say where you are located, If you did someone might recommend a decent key cutter to you.


From Newcastle area, the Geordie one, not the southern under Lyme one.
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 01:00 - 03 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

No I did not read anything on wikipedia. I had problems with a key, bought a couple blanks from ebay, took them to a bicycle repair shop. Retired old bloke running it, copied 3 keys and explained what he was doing. Took a while but was interesting and had nothing better to do in my lunch break.

https://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m593/Kramdra/2IMG_20161202_234436_zpstclj78cl.jpg~original

6 position key. First two are originals, plated after cut, shows the wear. 3rd was copy , plating only where uncut. Its better to copy a worn original than another copy.


Last edited by kramdra on 01:09 - 03 Dec 2016; edited 1 time in total
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