Advanced training?

[Freddyfruitba...]

So, I've decided I'd like to do some.

Currently looking at options. I believe there are active IAM and RoSPA groups not far from here, and I think those are the major providers aren't they? Also, Enhanced Rider Scheme, anyone? I've done a BikeSafe, which was useful.

Not sure which to go for - what are the pros and cons of each? Are there any others I should be thinking about?
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KC100->CB100N->CB250RS--------->DL650AL2->R1200RS->R1250RS

[bamt]

IAM and RoSPA are pretty similar. RoSPA needs to be renewed every three years, IAM is pass for life (though they now encourage you to retake). IAM used to be pass or fail whilst RoSPA gave bronze/silver/gold, but now IAM has a "master" pass.

To be honest, I'd look at both local groups, see if they do any other activities (my local IAM is very active for rides and holidays, RoSPA not so much), and how their training fits you. I heard of one group that had very tightly scheduled intakes and observations, whereas most are quite laid back and informal.

Go along and get a free taster session with the one you choose. There really isn't much difference other than what the local group is like.

I did RoSPA in the car, IAM on the bike, so have seen both.

[SteveSmith]

If you've already done BikeSafe I wouldn't bother with ERS. It's at a lower level than the IAM / RoSPA courses, and generally you'll be paying a professional instructor at their hourly rate to do it.

As for IAM vs RoSPA, they both work off the same syllabus (at least in theory), so really it's about how the local groups work for you. Some groups are more friendly / flexible than others. Some will insist that you attend classroom sessions or specific events while others don't. See how they both work and pick the one you like.

The main differences between the qualifications are that IAM is simply a pass / fail (although they've now created something called First, which is kind of a distinction pass), whereas RoSPA gives you a bronze / silver / gold. Also once you've passed the IAM test you can be a member for life, whereas you have to re-sit RoSPA every three years if you want to remain "current".

Enjoy!

Steve.

[CaNsA]

Get some track time.

Learn how to control the bike.

[arry]

Friend of mine obtained his <insert whichever qualification it was here> qualification via this bloke:
https://totaladvanced.co.uk/

Obviously you're not likely to come down from where you are in the country for them, but if there's anything similar around I think it's potentially got some merit to pay some cash just to bash it all out in a few days training rather than protracted ride outs with the local IAM dork.

I don't think I could handle the lecture, so have decided I'm staying well away.

[ScaredyCat]

I'm just about to do something similar but I have some real reservations. There seems to be an underlying current of "Use the system", "The system always works" and "You're safe because of the system".

I did a couple of hours where they offered non-specific advice and when I questioned why all the other riders in our group (all 'qualified') rode out on the white line on the country lane s bends where I know articulated lorries will often come round in the middle of the road, they just chanted the mantra "The system The system"...

I'm going to do an individual, freebie one where perhaps I'll get more of an opportunity to ask more questions. I don't know if I'm going to benefit from it, but I'll give it a go.

For all I know "The System" is perfectly good, it's just we're human beings, we make mistakes.
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Honda CBF125 ➝ NC700X
Honda CBF125 ↳ Speed Triple

[arry]

[BTTD]

[T.C]

With regards to offsiding, and for those of you who are interested, this piece by me has appeared in a few publications over the past few years.

If anyone offsides in front of me when I am examining, it is an immediate failure.

From time to time, riders pick my brains on various aspects of motorcycling, and one of the regular questions that pop us is “What is offsiding? They have often heard the term used, but have no idea what it is, so, seeing as this has recently reared its ugly head again, I thought a simple explanation might be appreciated, along with the implications to a rider who still chooses to adopt this practice.

Offsiding derives from the early days of police rider training, when riders were taught to maximise their view through left-hand bends, particularly when travelling at speed. By moving out beyond the centre white line to the opposite kerb, the bike could negotiate the bend quicker (especially in the days of poor ground clearance) and the view into the bend would be maximised. This technique was only encouraged where the view into the bend was clear, but the nearside (left-hand) lane could be returned to quickly if necessary. Back in the day when it was introduced, there was considerably less traffic on the roads back then, and so it was not such an issue. Offsiding was taught for many years in UK police driving schools right up until the Eighties, when senior instructors considered that the benefits of this practice were outweighed by the safety implications, especially when a spate of crashes occurred as a result of the riders being on the offside whilst negotiating a left hand bend.

Over the year’s offsiding filtered through to civilian advanced rider training groups, unfortunately many riders were injured or killed trying to perfect the technique, so the likes of the Institute of Advanced Motorists (IAM) and the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (RoSPA ) no longer sanction offsiding. However, there are still a few independent training bodies and instructors who preach offsiding as a worthwhile skill.

Today, advanced riding students are taught in the main to go no further than the centre white line on the approach to a left hander, as it at least provides a safety margin between the rider and approaching traffic, and civilian riders are not required to ride at the high speeds that Police riders sometimes have to. However, we all offside from time to time, in particular when overtaking, when we should try to maintain the maximum gap between ourselves and the vehicles we are passing, so it is not completely obsolete.

So what are the implications if you are involved in a crash as a result of being on the wrong side of the road?

Well, it all depends on what has happened. If it is a case that nobody was hurt other than your pride and your bike, then the chances are, not a lot.

However, if a crash with another vehicle occurs, apart from the fact that you are likely at the very least to be badly hurt, the question that is going to be asked is “Why was the bike on the wrong side of the road in the first place” In the case of an overtake, this is quite simple to justify, although it would be considered that the overtaking rider completely misjudged the situation. In the case of offsiding to negotiate a left hand bend, then it will be looked at as what was the rider trying to achieve, and it may also be an indication that the rider was travelling at excessive speed. In both cases, the rider could end up looking at a court appearance for either careless or even dangerous driving.

In the case of a claim being made against you, then you are unlikely to have much of a leg to stand on, as you should not have been out on the offside in the first place, or at the very least, you should have been capable of quickly and easily returning to your own lane.

Whilst old sweats like me can understand why it is done, these days, even I would have great difficulty in justifying someone following this practice, and in reality I would not be able to defend your actions.

If you have used an instructor, group or training body who still teaches this practice, then either walk away, or at least show them this. These people are potentially causing danger to you and other road users, apart from which, they also leave themselves open to being sued for teaching unsafe practices.
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It is better to arrive 30 seconds late in this world, than 30 years early in the next

[arthurmo]

I had quite a few sessions with IAM after doing bikesafe a couple of times and enjoyed both but didn't get around to taking the test.

It was all going well until a cross check ride with another observer before the test. All observers go from the IAM manual/system but I found the individual interpretation differed and I couldn't agree with this observer on some of his preferred way of doing things and he also had a very them and us attitude towards non IAM riders.

I'm quite happy being one of "them" but consider it still worthwhile as everyone's riding can get rusty and I did come away with some new tips but think next time I pay any money it will be for 1 to 1 training.
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ducati mutleystrada
Triumph Thruxton old and knackered just like the owner

[Rogerborg]

Definitely worth a try, and I agree that it comes down to the local group and how they interpret The System.

My local IAM were very nice people. They were honest about having very little interest in urban / suburban riding, and were all about "making progress" on empty B roads, which is what much of Roadcraft is about. I got on fine with them and enjoyed the assessed ride.

Their assessment of me was that I should offside more. See above for that, and Bikey Bro Bloke has his leg off by a lorry on HIS side of the road, is denied compo.

My assessment of them was that they took hill crests and blind bends at speeds far in excess of what would allow them to stop safely on their own side of the road in the distance that they could see to be clear. They were familiar with the road and assumed it would be clear; I was not and did not, which is exactly what Roadcraft says to do.

We shook hands and parted ways. I can only hope that they now aspire to be as awesomest as me.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[bamt]

As the others have said, observers can be variable. In my local group you have one assigned, but at every monthly meeting you get to go out with someone else so that you get a different view on your riding. Some could be very, very picky and definitely on the autistic spectrum.

I think the way to get the best out of it is to take the opportunity to discuss what is being said to you. The observers are volunteers, by no means perfect, and with their own interpretations of life, risk and the system. If you disagree with something, talk it through - it may be that there is something you hadn't spotted, something they hadn't spotted, or you just have a different view. But it makes you think about your riding, and /why/ you are in a certain position on the road (safety bubble, your visibility, ensuring you are where other road users can see you,...) or what is the best speed for the situation, which is really what it is about rather than dogmatically following a strict set of rules. The correct answer to any question about what speed or position you should be in starts with "It depends..."

There is a seemingly undue attention to "making progress", but in my opinion part of that is that it is only when we are pressing on that we get to practise and demonstrate aspects like safe overtaking or taking bends at speed during a fairly short observed ride. Bimbling around sitting in a line of traffic teaches you nothing and demonstrates nothing other than patience, so they generally don't do it. That's not to say that bimbling around is bad or not approved of by the advanced groups, it's just a waste of a couple of hours of observed riding.

[grr666]

I'm doing this one this year. Particularly interested in the ditch avoidance module.
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Currently enjoying products from Ford, Mazda and Yamaha
Ste wrote: Avatars are fine, it's signatures that need turning off.

[ScaredyCat]

[Rogerborg]

[bamt]

[Rogerborg]

[barrkel]

[bamt]

[TheDonUK]

I direct your attention to the video of the SEG bike copper stacking it on embankment in the last day or two... The ideal to aim for supposedly.
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[Current Bikes - GSXR-750 K5 & C90-97 ] [Previous Bikes: Runner 125, YBR 125, GS500, Bandit 600, Hornet 600, ZX6R-99, C90-99, R1-99, XT600E-04, GSXR-750 K4, CRF250L '16]

[M.C]

^ Dunno why you wouldn't link it but... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4wHBr70E8E

ahahahah Hope that was the c**t that tried to deliberately run into me.

[Rogerborg]

[arthurmo]

[trevor saxe-coburg-gotha]

[Val]