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How much room do you expect from a motorcycle overtaking?

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adengtg
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PostPosted: 02:20 - 09 Mar 2018    Post subject: How much room do you expect from a motorcycle overtaking? Reply with quote

As a biker, i usually move onto the white line or just next to it if i am overtaking a cyclist who is nearer to the curb if there is oncoming traffic. i usually move just over the white line on the opposite side of the road if there isnt traffic

Is this too close or is it a safe distance from the Cyclist's perspective?
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grr666
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PostPosted: 08:54 - 09 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

What if (like they frequently are round here) they are quite defiantly three abreast with no intention of moving
out of your way (especially annoying on 4 wheels? I personally think that if they about an arms length away from a
passing MC then that will do, its about how close they ride to one another in groups, same meat different gravy IMO.

These groups feel quite happy to force you into oncoming traffic to pass them rather than use a shoulder check
or mirror (god forbid) to even notice you are there and ride single file for a bit to allow a pass. So if they get the odd
close pass then that's fair enough. It might teach them that faster traffic approaches from behind, a fact they seem
oblivious to judging by the miles I've sat behind a group, me clattering along behind in 2nd gear in a van without so much
as a head turn or any effort to allow me to pass. Round here that's often on twisty single lane b roads with a 60 limit
where you can't really risk a full lane change to get by and it's hard to read oncoming traffic because you can't see round
bends. I wouldn't ride a pushbike on a road personally, it seems mental to me that anyone would. I'm not anti cycle,
but I take my pushbikes to the park, beach or similar to ride them, where the air is fresh and I won't get pancaked by an artic.
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UnknownStuntm...
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PostPosted: 09:10 - 09 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

grr666 wrote:
What if (like they frequently are round here) they are quite defiantly three abreast with no intention of moving
out of your way (especially annoying on 4 wheels? I personally think that if they about an arms length away from a
passing MC then that will do, its about how close they ride to one another in groups, same meat different gravy IMO.

These groups feel quite happy to force you into oncoming traffic to pass them rather than use a shoulder check
or mirror (god forbid) to even notice you are there and ride single file for a bit to allow a pass. So if they get the odd
close pass then that's fair enough. It might teach them that faster traffic approaches from behind, a fact they seem
oblivious to judging by the miles I've sat behind a group, me clattering along behind in 2nd gear in a van without so much
as a head turn or any effort to allow me to pass. Round here that's often on twisty single lane b roads with a 60 limit
where you can't really risk a full lane change to get by and it's hard to read oncoming traffic because you can't see round
bends. I wouldn't ride a pushbike on a road personally, it seems mental to me that anyone would. I'm not anti cycle,
but I take my pushbikes to the park, beach or similar to ride them, where the air is fresh and I won't get pancaked by an artic.

What a mental that lot is. I disagree.

Here's my case:
Humans have a head with eyes stuck on the front. Yes, there's a nogjoint that allows the melon to rotate somewhat, but in it's default setting, it points the way the human faces. Not behind, or over the shoulder etc. If she's turning right or pulling out to overtake, she'll likely do a lifesaver, but why would they do that all the time, out of 'respec' for people coming up behind?

Cyclers are generally going about 10-25mph. If you pass a bikeist at 65mph and she's doing 25, that's a fair differential in speed, and as a motorbikeist you should know what a draught feels like.
Stories about cyclists riding three abreast with no lights on through red traffic lights are all complete bullshit excuses to put other cyclists in danger. What you're doing is projecting that you're somehow a victim of these heinous crimes and you're dishing out furious retribution.
Close passing is an absolute cunts trick. If you think it's a clever thing to do, next time you happen to pass a railway station, go look at the yellow line on the platform and stand on it while a no-stopper comes through.

No blud, we're English. What we do when we see any cyclists up ahead is pass them safely, as wide as possible. The most you should do is tsk and shake your head slightly after you've passed.
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bamt
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PostPosted: 09:24 - 09 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends a lot on speed difference, road conditions etc.

If you're doing a 60mph overtake, then at a minimum if they are in the left hand tyre track you should be between the right hand track and centre line. If there is nothing oncoming then I go to the other side as a courtesy. Give them what you can as it costs you nothing and leads to generally better karma on the road.

If you are only going marginally faster than them, fairly slow overall and maintaining a constant throttle (so as to not make them jump with a sudden noise change) then just out of touching distance it's generally fine if you physically can't give them more because, as grr666 says, that's what most are used to from other two wheelers. But on a poor road surface or if they are riding in the gutter (so likely to hit drain covers) give more room as they may need to change line with little notice.

If you are both going at speed on twisty downhill or on the approach to a roundabout then give loads of room because they will take a different line to you around bends and are surprisingly agile and fast. If you ever watch cycle racing, you'll see that the escort and camera bikes keep the hell out of the way on downhills.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 10:48 - 09 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should imagine they are riding with their arms held straight out sideways and leave enough space not hit those arms.

I consider it is following traffics job to overtake me safely, not my job to get out of their way. I would be backed up in law on this point too. I'll drive for me. You drive for you.

Overtaking into the face of oncoming traffic is fucking retarded. That's in any situation. No matter how inconsiderate the person you're overtaking appears to be. If you're overtaking into oncoming traffic, it's YOU that is the dick.
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weasley
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PostPosted: 15:34 - 09 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

grr666 wrote:
What if (like they frequently are round here) they are quite defiantly three abreast with no intention of moving
out of your way (especially annoying on 4 wheels? I personally think that if they about an arms length away from a
passing MC then that will do, its about how close they ride to one another in groups, same meat different gravy IMO.

I don't recall ever seeing a group three-abreast on a road, or at least not when traffic is around.

grr666 wrote:
These groups feel quite happy to force you into oncoming traffic to pass them...

Nobody is "forcing" you to pass, let alone into oncoming traffic.

grr666 wrote:
...rather than use a shoulder check
or mirror (god forbid) to even notice you are there and ride single file for a bit to allow a pass.

I do do this, but there's no requirement to do it and I sometimes find that moving to a single file can encourage close passes.

grr666 wrote:
So if they get the odd
close pass then that's fair enough. It might teach them that faster traffic approaches from behind,

As someone pointed out above, it seems that retribution is the driving force here - your role is to teach other road users lessons?

grr666 wrote:
a fact they seem
oblivious to judging by the miles I've sat behind a group, me clattering along behind in 2nd gear in a van without so much
as a head turn or any effort to allow me to pass.

Sounds like classic exaggeration. "Miles"? How many? Even if it's two miles at an average of (being generous) 15 mph that's 8 minutes. Whilst it might feel like that long, I'll bet that you don't go 8 minutes behind a group of cyclists (and that's just for a 2 mile example). Impatience and self-importance can often magnify reality.

grr666 wrote:
I wouldn't ride a pushbike on a road personally, it seems mental to me that anyone would. I'm not anti cycle,
but I take my pushbikes to the park, beach or similar to ride them, where the air is fresh and I won't get pancaked by an artic.

I plan my road rides to avoid busy roads - I just prefer not being hounded by impatient drivers or getting in the way of trucks. I also ride out of my house - I don't want to have to drive somewhere before riding. And besides, I'm not going to get much of a workout riding around a park (along a beach would certainly be a workout, but I also prefer covering some distance).

If I get caught behind cyclists I wait until it is clear to get past without risking them or me. If it means waiting, I wait. If someone is following me for a long time when I am cycling I acknowledge their patience with a wave when they pass.

Back to the OP - on a (motor)bike I'll give the cyclist as much as is appropriate. If it's a fast, open road with a lot of view, I might go right over to the right lane. If it's a bit tighter I might slow a bit and go to the white line (assuming there's nothing coming the other way that might compromise this position). If there's no clean pass, I'll wait.
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adengtg
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PostPosted: 17:06 - 09 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
You should imagine they are riding with their arms held straight out sideways and leave enough space not hit those arms.

I consider it is following traffics job to overtake me safely, not my job to get out of their way. I would be backed up in law on this point too. I'll drive for me. You drive for you.

Overtaking into the face of oncoming traffic is fucking retarded. That's in any situation. No matter how inconsiderate the person you're overtaking appears to be. If you're overtaking into oncoming traffic, it's YOU that is the dick.


i should have specified but oncoming traffic as in maybe 50-100m away. enough that its safer to not move right over the other lane but not like passing when other cars are 10M away or anything
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Ste
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PostPosted: 17:22 - 09 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

grr666 wrote:
I've sat behind a group, me clattering along behind in 2nd gear in a van without so much
as a head turn or any effort to allow me to pass.

I'm of the opinion that as a cyclist, a glance over your shoulder when you can hear something approaching is important.

I'm also convinced that the faster you're cycling, the more patient drivers are likely to be.
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grr666
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PostPosted: 17:23 - 09 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

weasley wrote:

I don't recall ever seeing a group three-abreast on a road, or at least not when traffic is around.


Oh it never happens then because YOU have never seen it? I've never seen the Taj Mahal. Does that mean it isn't there?
In my humble it's even worse doing it on quieter roads, the likelihood of a closing vehicle to be travelling at that roads speed
limit is greater if it's very quiet. This summer I'll furnish this thread with a few screenshots, I can be certain that I'll see this
happening several times again this year. Seems really common around Cheddar, maybe theres a club?

weasley wrote:

Nobody is "forcing" you to pass, let alone into oncoming traffic.


On a B road, in order to pass the apparently mythical three abreast scenario on a lane 9 feet wide how else does
one get by? I have no qualms about using either lane when I can see ahead but that's pretty risky on
the B road example in my post, they are not called twisties because they are arrow straight with great visibility.
Or have I got that wrong as well?

Weasley wrote:

I do do this, but there's no requirement to do it and I sometimes find that moving to a single file can encourage close passes.


I'm only obliged to give a metre and a half, I usually give way more when I'm able to do so. Aren't we nice people?
But if I had a pound for every time I've been in traffic in a 10tonne plus vehicle and glanced in my nearside mirror
to see a cycle eating up his own space by squeezing past on the inside, and fairly often when I had a left signal flashing,
I'd be able to buy a really, really nice pushbike.

Weasley wrote:

As someone pointed out above, it seems that retribution is the driving force here - your role is to teach other road users lessons?


No my role is to get to my destination, just like everybody else. Just that if I wanted to get there at 15mph, I'd have taken
the pushbike and not one of my motorised vehicles. One would hope that a human survival instinct would kick in here, last
time I checked it was prudent to be aware of all your surroundings. My bus instructor always used to say "Where's your danger?"
about once every minute or so. Sage advice. So cyclists, where's your danger? Ahead where you can see? Or closing in at an
unknown pace from behind? Answers on a postcard?

Weasley wrote:

Sounds like classic exaggeration. "Miles"? How many? Even if it's two miles at an average of (being generous) 15 mph that's 8 minutes. Whilst it might feel like that long, I'll bet that you don't go 8 minutes behind a group of cyclists (and that's just for a 2 mile example). Impatience and self-importance can often magnify reality.

In best part of thirty years on the road, probably hundreds, buses get stuck behind pushbikes ALL the time
playing overtake hopscotch all the way down the road. Driven a 30 foot plus bus in service in Central London much?
I have, done much truck driving? No? You may view cyclists a little differently if you had. Perhaps I could have added the
"across my driving career" caveat but where's the fun in that? Remind me who will always come off worse in a cycle collision
(which btw I've never had in ANY class of vehicle) the truck/bus/car/van? Or the pushbike?

Weasley wrote:

I plan my road rides to avoid busy roads - I just prefer not being hounded by impatient drivers or getting in the way of trucks. I also ride out of my house - I don't want to have to drive somewhere before riding. And besides, I'm not going to get much of a workout riding around a park (along a beach would certainly be a workout, but I also prefer covering some distance).

If I get caught behind cyclists I wait until it is clear to get past without risking them or me. If it means waiting, I wait. If someone is following me for a long time when I am cycling I acknowledge their patience with a wave when they pass.


Admirable! Perhaps you do but plenty don't give it a second thought. Depends how fast and many times you ride round
a park surely? I mean exercise isn't exercise without the constant fear of being crusheed to death by a huge tyre now is it?
As for the beach, heard of promenades? Riding on sand is for scramblers! I only ride pushbikes for an occasional
novelty, but away from roads. A coupe of miles a pint and an ice cream is my limit. I can certainly think of less dangerous ways
to get fit that don't involve breathing diesel particulates

Using the roads for a workout?? Can't get my head around that at all. Next time I'm in Tescos, I must do a few press
ups in the nappy aisle, or perhaps I can have my next haircut while running on the spot maybe then I'll get it? #velodrome
And it's okay to force everybody else to travel at little more than jogging pace, for the sake of your workout?
Might as well knock all the gyms, sports centres and playing fields down eh and and do yoga on the A406 near Ikea, football on
the roof of a towerblock and really extreme frisbee at the nearest lake??. There are plenty of places specifically for
working out. Roads are specifically for getting places, preferably for most users at least, in the shortest possible time.

Weasley wrote:
Back to the OP - on a (motor)bike I'll give the cyclist as much as is appropriate. If it's a fast, open road with a lot of view, I might go right over to the right lane. If it's a bit tighter I might slow a bit and go to the white line (assuming there's nothing coming the other way that might compromise this position). If there's no clean pass, I'll wait.

I never said I didn't do those things myself, I've driven for a living for a great deal of my years in one form or another.
If I had a history of splattering mamils, I'd probably be in prison, and I certainly wouldn't have a clean licence.
I wonder what would happen if I went out in the van, on such a road and just did 10-15mph?
The world and his wife would knock their bollocks out to get by me. Again I have a great deal of experience of that
having driven buses. I've seen some startlingly risky passes to avoid getting 'stuck' behind my bus (The bus that like all
others will pull in again in 500 metres because that is what buses do, that's all buses do.) but with 30ft and several
tonnes of bus between my arse and the arse trying to force a pass, go ahead, knock yourself out. It's not my bus either. <shrug.jpg>
On a pushbike I wouldn't be quite so cavalier about danger from behind. Maybe I'm just over cautious?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 17:24 - 09 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

adengtg wrote:
i should have specified but oncoming traffic as in maybe 50-100m away. enough that its safer to not move right over the other lane but not like passing when other cars are 10M away or anything

How much time do you think you've got for that 100 meters to become less than 10 meters? At 30, at 50, at 70?
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adengtg
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PostPosted: 17:49 - 09 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
adengtg wrote:
i should have specified but oncoming traffic as in maybe 50-100m away. enough that its safer to not move right over the other lane but not like passing when other cars are 10M away or anything

How much time do you think you've got for that 100 meters to become less than 10 meters? At 30, at 50, at 70?


maybe it was more than 100m, i'm bad at judging distances in my head but you get the picture. Also, fuck you i get 60mph tops
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M.C
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PostPosted: 18:14 - 09 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is more from an urban cyclist perspective, but personally it's more about the manner of the overtake than the distance. When bikers were allowed into bus lanes it definitely increased the risk factor, as some bikers seem to feel it's ok to pass closely doing 40 mph. I slow down and make sure I give cyclists as much room as possible.

Cyclists ride two abreast to try and stop dodgy overtakes. It's a bit c**ty but cars tend to see a cyclist and go for the overtake without evaluating the situation properly, and this results in an aborted overtake where they end up moving into the side of you (I've seen it happen a few times). Although on a bike ability course they told us to only double up at traffic lights/junctions and to move back into single file afterwards.
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Powderhead
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PostPosted: 00:11 - 10 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

My journeys are mainly in and out of London, so it all depends how far I'm going. I'll give them a bike-width when pulling away from traffic lights, but more than a car-width when overtaking them at speed.

I might also deduct a few centimetres if they're the entitled sort.

http://i.vimeocdn.com/video/523431253_1280x720.jpg
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 18:12 - 10 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

adengtg wrote:


i should have specified but oncoming traffic as in maybe 50-100m away. enough that its safer to not move right over the other lane but not like passing when other cars are 10M away or anything


It is either safe to pull onto the opposite side of the road for long enough to completer your manouver or it is not safe.

I don't see any other distinction or graduation between the two.

It sounds very much to me like you're pulling onto the wrong side of the road when you're not sure it's safe to do so. That will only end one way and would be entirely your own fault.
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Fin
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PostPosted: 21:58 - 11 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's all situational how much space to give, being on a motorbike cyclists are only an issue when you're blasting round bends, in that case you're in the wrong anyway.

If the other side of the road is clear I'll go over onto the other side and stay the same speed, if not then I'll slow a little bit and keep close to the right of my lane.
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asta1
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PostPosted: 22:39 - 11 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends on the situation. I tend to work on a 'no harm, no foul' principle. If someone hits you, they're at fault, if they don't, it was safe. I also assume that every person is out to kill me, just the same as I do on the motorbike. I aim to make sure I don't put myself in danger and try and ensure people never have to make a risky overtake. Works well, I've never been in an accident on my pushbike, I never have people making close passes, and the only spill I've had on the motorbike involved only me.

I do however think that cyclists are usually their own worst enemy. I currently cycle a lot. I live in the middle of manchester about 4 miles from my uni, so getting there is cheaper, quicker and easier on the bike than public transport, my car, or even my motorbike. As such I ride 8 or so miles/day, all on the road and haven't used any form of motorized transport for at least a few months. In this situation, road cycling makes sense. I can cycle fast enough that I am almost never overtaken by anyone, let alone busses etc. I can also quite happily whizz along near the kerb so people can squeeze past if they absolutely need to and fancy a speeding ticket. This is perfectly considerate cycling, and a reasonable use of the road system, it's the quickest way to reach my destination.

However, when I'm at home especially, I do see people cycling along 60mph roads in packs of 10 or 15, two or three-abreast at 20mph, with a line of 5+ cars behind them. These people are cunts. They are a serious obstruction to the roads, they irritate everyone, they make it as difficult as possible to perform a decent overtake, and then invariably get fuuuriously angry when you finally get bored after what seems like an eternity (probably less than a mile to be entirely fair) and make that slightly suspect overtake. What do they expect?

It's go to be a two way thing, surely? Cyclists should do everything in their power to not be a total pain in the arse, and motorists should make every effort not to squash them like bugs. How hard can it be?
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