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Ste
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PostPosted: 16:49 - 09 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
I presume the Police and Military normally deploy hundreds of people to investigate all attempted murders by poisoning?

What do you expect them to do if the poisoning is from a nerve agent?

The army have got the right people with the right kit for dealing with such things.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:30 - 09 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

cdlxxvi wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:


Would you care to inspire me with some facts that will make me want to go and live in Russia?


Of course! I will even compare the glorious results of colonel Putin's strong and stable leadership in Russia to the grave consequences of cosmopolitan EU shackles in nearby Estonia (which also started as a Soviet republic before USSR broke up).

Average net wage: 476 pounds (Estonia: 850)
GDP growth: 1.6% (3.7%)
Life expectancy: 63 years (69)
Corruption: 135th out of 180 ranked (21st)

But hey, in Russia they don't concern themselves with human rights, accommodating refugees or similar nonsense.


Bounce! When can I go?! Bounce!

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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 02:26 - 11 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:

Damaging UK/Russian relations only plays into the hands of the EU and pro EU media, who've been hell bent on turning Russia and to some degree the US, into a common enemy of the EU, to justify the need for sticking together and amassing an even bigger EU military.


Maybe I haven't been keeping up to date enough, but I was under the impression that it was a struggle to get most EU countries to fulfil a pledge to spend 2% of GDP on defence? And that to include on a national, rather than just a NATO basis?
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ThoughtContro...
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PostPosted: 07:05 - 11 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russian intelligence must be shit. Blatantly poison an opponent using VX nerve agent and can't even kill him properly, since he's still in a "critical condition". My hats off goes to Serbian intelligence agents. Shot "much loved" TV presenter Jill Dando dead in broad daylight on her doorstep, for supporting Kosovo Albanians in a propaganda "aid" campaign, yet the police are so shit feared of confirming it was so. Kosovo je srce Srbije!
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 12:01 - 11 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Maybe I haven't been keeping up to date enough, but I was under the impression that it was a struggle to get most EU countries to fulfil a pledge to spend 2% of GDP on defence? And that to include on a national, rather than just a NATO basis?


It's NATO, but look where all the troops are from. If I was Putin, i'd see this as posturing and not a friendly move. It's certainly not so they can volunteer to help with security in the World Cup.

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_large/public/thumbnails/image/2017/02/03/23/nato-map.jpg

Quote:
Thousands of Nato troops have amassed close to the border with Russia as part of the largest build-up of Western troops neighbouring Moscow’s sphere of influence since the Cold War.

The Baltic states, Poland, Romania and Bulgaria are hosting soldiers from across Nato’s 28 member states, with more than 7,000 troops deployed in countries bordering Russia.

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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:24 - 11 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I don't know. I think perhaps you have blinkered yourself somewhat. There are always two sides to a story:

http://carnegieendowment.org/2017/03/13/new-nato-russia-military-balance-implications-for-european-security-pub-68222

You'd also do well to remember that Trump has been making noises about EU countries assuming more responsibility for their own defence.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 12:32 - 11 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Well, I don't know. I think perhaps you have blinkered yourself somewhat. There are always two sides to a story:

http://carnegieendowment.org/2017/03/13/new-nato-russia-military-balance-implications-for-european-security-pub-68222

You'd also do well to remember that Trump has been making noises about EU countries assuming more responsibility for their own defence.


Balance? That's just pro EU, anti Russia propaganda isn't it?

"We need moaw troops bordering Russia, because they're a nasty enemy of Europe"....

The entire site is pure Pro EU, anti Russia, anti Trump propaganda...

https://carnegieendowment.org/publications/interactive/global-russia

http://carnegieendowment.org/2018/02/27/eu-and-ukraine-taking-breath-pub-75648

http://carnegieendowment.org/#trump-s-impact-on-the-world
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 12:34 - 11 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I missing something here? The UK government give several new identities to child murderers like James Bulger's killers, yet "hide" a Russian double agent in the UK, using his and his families real identities?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:04 - 11 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
Well, I don't know. I think perhaps you have blinkered yourself somewhat. There are always two sides to a story:

http://carnegieendowment.org/2017/03/13/new-nato-russia-military-balance-implications-for-european-security-pub-68222

You'd also do well to remember that Trump has been making noises about EU countries assuming more responsibility for their own defence.


Balance? That's just pro EU, anti Russia propaganda isn't it? It seems to be working very well on you.

"We need moaw troops bordering Russia, because they're a nasty enemy of Europe"....

The entire site is pure Pro EU, anti Russia, anti Trump propaganda...


Are you saying you don't think Russia employs propaganda? I'd say it's working very well on you.

You have chosen a side, and therefore have dismissed my link as EU propaganda. But I chose that because it does at least look at the the situation from a Russian perspective. Or what we perceive as the Russian perspective anyway - there are no certainties in these situations. I also chose it because it gives the US perspective (not EU - Carnegie Endowment). I see no attacks on Trump in that text. I don't think you actually read any of it, and that is why your view is so skewed - you have made up your mind on snippets of information from news sources you yourself say you don't trust, and refuse to look at any other opinion.

Yes, you are missing one hell of a lot Laughing
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 13:15 - 11 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Are you saying you don't think Russia employs propaganda? I'd say it's working very well on you.



No, I'm saying that I presented a factual graphic showing EU posturing and aggression against Russia, where you countered it with propaganda from a pure propaganda organisation. There's a huge difference. How about something factual now?

The other "impartial" articles by the same author as your link...

http://carnegieendowment.org/2018/02/13/former-soviet-empire-strikes-back-pub-75545

Quote:
Russia’s meddling in the U.S. political system is part of a broader global campaign to undermine what the Kremlin sees as a Western-dominated international order.


http://carnegieendowment.org/2018/01/12/trump-s-policy-on-iran-dr.-jekyll-and-mr.-hyde-pub-75249

Quote:
When it comes to Iran, Donald Trump’s foreign policy looks like a scene out of Robert Louis Stevenson’s The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:23 - 11 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
Are you saying you don't think Russia employs propaganda? I'd say it's working very well on you.



No, I'm saying that I presented a factual graphic showing EU posturing and aggression against Russia, where you countered it with propaganda from a pure propaganda organisation. There's a huge difference. How about something factual now?


You still haven't read what I posted. And if you have, you have still blinkered yourself by reading it with a pre-formed opinion of what you will find. And you have not considered timelines of what happened when. In fact, you just take single pieces of information in isolation, and then fail to understand them, because you have no wider knowledge to give you context. Worse than that, you refuse to even look for wider knowledge.
Your posts come across more as pro-Russian propaganda than any of it Laughing

P.S. I'd be the first to admit that Trump's behaviour muddies the water somewhat Laughing

And hey, your factual graphic uses NATO as one of its sources - it must be EU propaganda! Laughing
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:21 - 11 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:


P.S. I'd be the first to admit that Trump's behaviour muddies the water somewhat Laughing



Maybe that's his intention... Confused

mpd72 wrote:
It's certainly not so they can volunteer to help with security in the World Cup.


It might be. Perhaps all this stuff about countering a perceived Russian threat is more EU BS Wink Laughing
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 15:11 - 11 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:

It might be. Perhaps all this stuff about countering a perceived Russian threat is more EU BS Wink Laughing


Of course it is. The EU is trying to justify it's need as a security force to protect us all from the big bad superpowers.

If they can make Russia and the US to be perceived as enemies of Europe, it re-enforces the EU's position as a Federal State with it's own army.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 00:37 - 14 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

My theory, ex Commie-bloc state gets worried as the EU looks like it might collapse and leave them exposed to Russia. They go dig out the old chemistry set left over from the Cold War and bump off some no mark minor spy and drive a prime NATO member state into a deeply anti-Russian stance.

Seems to be working as we

The Spy screwed over a lot of people as well. The assisination attempt could also be a vendetta way way lower down the chain than the level of the Kremlin.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 01:02 - 14 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two things about this that make state involvement likely to me.

1) The nerve agent concerned (if the government are to be believed) is extremely specific and difficult to synthesise. If you wanted to kill someone with a nerve agent, this is NOT the one you'd pick. It is pretty much a given fact that anyone who knows how to synthesize this compound will be known to the state.

2) The nerve agent concerned is so profoundly, extraordinarily toxic. For some sort of fifth column to suceessfully synthesise it then deploy it in a sufficiently small quantity that it didn't instantly kill both the target and a (large) radius effect of people in the vicintiy of both the laboratory, waste disposal area and the deployment zone took an uncommon level of expertise.

There is of course, the horrifying possability that the Russian state has somehow lost control of a quantity of premade, covert nerve agent from a strategic weapons facility, in which case the aparent bluster on the part of the Russian government is actually terror...
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 01:37 - 14 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Novichok" is apparently a name for a range of nerve agents, not just one. Some are liquid, some powder, and some can be stored in two constituent parts, and are not dangerous until combined. Or so the available information goes.

It certainly looks more convincing that it is the work of the Russian state now, but still nothing in the public domain makes it 100% certain, that I've read anyway. The Russians have demanded a sample to check for themselves. Could be a cover. They get it, confirm it is, then say, "ok, we have a problem, it did get away without our knowledge." Or they can just flat deny it's theirs. What then? Seems to me that then you'd need independent verification. But by who? Who could analyse it, and justifiably say they were entirely impartial?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 03:15 - 14 Mar 2018    Post subject: Re: Just blame Russia... Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
So, with the latest posturing in the pro EU media over the "alleged" Russian assassination of the former Russian spy and his daughter, does anyone else feel there might be a slight agenda to these anti Russian/Putin or US/Trump stories littering every news bulletin?
It has a smell of the media demonising the two world super powers, making them into enemies of the UK, to re-enforce the need for the EU, it's perceived security and it's growing desire for it's super power size army. You know, "It's a big scary world out there on your own"..

I mean this latest Russian poisoning is a bit odd isn't it? The bloke was in a Russian prison for 7 years before being handed over to the UK for asylum in a diplomatic deal. If the Kremlin wanted him dead, why didn't they make him suddenly die of "natural causes" in prison in Russia 15 years ago?
We're supposed to believe that they preferred to wait until years after he'd been living in the UK, after being freed from Russian prison almost 15 years earlier, to execute him and his daughter on UK soil.

Something doesn't add up here. It might sound a bit tin foil hat, but could pro EU forces be secretly behind this to further discredit Putin/Russia.


Dance! Dance! Dance! Dance! Dance! Dance!

Finally something we agree on Very Happy

First time I saw anything substantial about this story was yesterday in an article about Theresa May claiming she'd take serious action, treat it as an attack on British soil, etc etc.

Total bollocks.

Funny how the ISIS malarkey that happened over the past couple of years was generally a case of 'thoughts and prayers' and 'we suspect they were home grown', then as soon as the middle-east campaign ends (which Russia won), the problems on UK soil magically shift over to a covert attack which was definitely orchestrated by the Russian state.

And I don't buy the claims that the chemical they used is so specific and hard to manufacture that it makes Russian involvement a certainty. It's just too convenient. Sounds like a plot from a Tom Clancy book or something.

"After analysing the nerve agents, government scientists knew it could only have come from Russia!"

Laughing

There are a million reasons for Russia not to overtly fuck around on British soil using directly incriminatory nerve agents to commit the basic act of murder.

There are also a million reasons for the British state and/or the media circus that surrounds it, or pretty much any major entity with real interests in what the British public are thinking, including the ISIS folk, to kickstart or concoct an event and make it into a tall story for economic or political gain. But nope, fuck it, it was the Russians, definitely the Russians and only the Russians.

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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 08:22 - 14 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

They really do walk among us.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 10:58 - 14 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
Two things about this that make state involvement likely to me.

1) The nerve agent concerned (if the government are to be believed) is extremely specific and difficult to synthesise. If you wanted to kill someone with a nerve agent, this is NOT the one you'd pick. It is pretty much a given fact that anyone who knows how to synthesize this compound will be known to the state.


Unless, of course, you wanted the Russian state to get the blame, which would benefit many organisations such as the EU...cough...cough...

stinkwheel wrote:
2) The nerve agent concerned is so profoundly, extraordinarily toxic. For some sort of fifth column to suceessfully synthesise it then deploy it in a sufficiently small quantity that it didn't instantly kill both the target and a (large) radius effect of people in the vicintiy of both the laboratory, waste disposal area and the deployment zone took an uncommon level of expertise.

There is of course, the horrifying possability that the Russian state has somehow lost control of a quantity of premade, covert nerve agent from a strategic weapons facility, in which case the aparent bluster on the part of the Russian government is actually terror...


Or maybe someone else had got their hands on Russian made nerve gas over the last 40 or so years? If ISIS shoot someone with a Kalashnikov or other Russian made weapon, do we blame Russian state too? Do we automatically blame the Russian state with no proof what so ever?

Mind you, and here's the important bit..... This outrage against Russia, with talk of no footy this year, to make the story appeal to all levels of society, is certainly helping bury the Telford outrage from the newsdesk. Co-incidence? Anyone would think the government and media have tried burying certain types of news before...
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Fizzoid
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PostPosted: 11:22 - 14 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
If ISIS shoot someone with a Kalashnikov or other Russian made weapon, do we blame Russian state too?


No, but then you can't buy deadly nerve agents at Walmart either!
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 11:23 - 14 Mar 2018    Post subject: Re: Just blame Russia... Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
And I don't buy the claims that the chemical they used is so specific and hard to manufacture that it makes Russian involvement a certainty


It's this that I struggle with too.
Why would Russian agents use a Russian specific poison? It makes no sense unless you make it want to look Russian, in which case they would have just closed shop and told us to fuck off. Instead the Russians want samples, so they can test its origins.

All seems a little out to me.

My money is on the Russians linking it to an EU member state, or an Ex-Russian state (that probably sold it to an EU member state).

I'm just not buying that the Russians are stupid enough to implicate themselves so heavily in this and then deny it.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 11:28 - 14 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you think Russia kept control of its weapons stocks after the collapse of the Communist bloc your mistaken. There was a long period when you could get access to all sorts of things for the price of a bottle of vodka.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 11:31 - 14 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ribenapigeon wrote:
If you think Russia kept control of its weapons stocks after the collapse of the Communist bloc your mistaken. There was a long period when you could get access to all sorts of things for the price of a bottle of vodka.


PJay wrote:
or an Ex-Russian state


Well quite.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 11:47 - 14 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other consideration is that perhaps the soviet espionage arm isn't as well informed as they like to think. Novichok was specifically designed to evade detection.

It's possible they thought they still had a compound that was impossible to detect?

That the Russians would want to bump off a former secret agent is entirely plausible. They have back history of this kind of thing going as far back as Profumo on that AND have recently passed a law "allowing" it.

They are also not above highly theatrical methods. I mean, a poison umbrella ffs? It's like something straight out of a batman comic.

I'd have used tetrodotoxin.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 12:09 - 14 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
I'd have used tetrodotoxin.


You're not stupid enough to use Novichok, yet you are allowing the possibility that the Russians are?

Cool.
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