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Leaky fork seals, How much is too much, Or how little is ok?

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NutsyUk
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PostPosted: 11:31 - 27 Sep 2018    Post subject: Leaky fork seals, How much is too much, Or how little is ok? Reply with quote
Right as some of you might know I changed the fork seals on my bike last winter and the bikes only been ridden since spring.

But with the MOT coming next month, ive just discovered that the new seals appear to be leaking... Well its not gushing out or dripping down the forks, but theres certainly a oil residue buildup forming...

Is anything other than totally dry a mot fail? What could this be? Theres no corrosion in the fork travel area.
The seals wouldnt normally go so soon... So thats why i ask... Is a little bit of oil normal?
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NutsyUk
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PostPosted: 11:51 - 27 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 CPT wrote:
Genuine seals or aftermarket?

Seals are one part I'd never skimp on.


I honestly cant remember...
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 11:58 - 27 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 CPT wrote:
Genuine seals or aftermarket?

Seals are one part I'd never skimp on.


So you'd only buy genuine seals but you wouldn't replace the bits that actually cause the seals to fail?

When fork seals go ALWAYS replace the bushes. The seals generally fail because of play between the fork top and bottom so the corrct question isn't 'did you use genuine seals' the correct question is 'did you replace the bushes?'
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DrSnoosnoo
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PostPosted: 11:58 - 27 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
When you did the seals, did you put new bushes on too? And new dust seals?
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 12:01 - 27 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
NutsyUK wrote:
What could this be? Theres no corrosion in the fork travel area.

I replaced seals and then bushes on my forks but they still leaked heavily. They looked in reasonable condition but with a couple of tiny pits in the swept area, which felt smooth and weren't improved with Emery cloth or oil stone. Rechroming was an immediate fix. Philpots in Luton did the job on mine. They also say that forks can become slightly curved in normal use, but they straighten them too. £170 a pair, as I recall. Cheaper than replacements.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 12:02 - 27 Sep 2018    Post subject: Re: Leaky fork seals, How much is too much, Or how little is Reply with quote
NutsyUk wrote:
But with the MOT coming next month, ive just discovered that the new seals appear to be leaking... Well its not gushing out or dripping down the forks, but theres certainly a oil residue buildup forming...


There will always be some oil on the stanchion else your seal would wear fast. It shouldn't be noticable though. If you clean it (and wipe the stanchion with clean oil on a clean cloth) how long does it take to become noticable?
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NutsyUk
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PostPosted: 12:15 - 27 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
I didnt change the bushings no, the oil and dust seal was replaced... While some corrosion was on the chrome. I dont remember any of it in the travel space... I still clean as much of it off as i could.

As for the bushings, i dont remember them having any radial play... they didnt wobble... but i wasnt specifically looking for it...
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 12:19 - 27 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
NutsyUk wrote:
As for the bushings, i dont remember them having any radial play... they didnt wobble... but i wasnt specifically looking for it...


As the bushes wear the top bush acts like a pivot point, you wouldn't have much radial play if any.
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Jim Mc
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PostPosted: 12:20 - 27 Sep 2018    Post subject: Re: Leaky fork seals, How much is too much, Or how little is Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:

There will always be some oil on the stanchion else your seal would wear fast. It shouldn't be noticable though. If you clean it (and wipe the stanchion with clean oil on a clean cloth) how long does it take to become noticable?


Not sure how correct that is, as the tubes are coated in teflon to allow everything to slide, this is why you're supposed to keep them clean and free of grit so you don't scratch the teflon coating.

I was told by my MOT examiner that any leakage constitutes failure. I've had bad experience using aftermarket seals, so I'd recommend buying the OEM part from the vehicle manufacturer.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 12:24 - 27 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Last change of buses and fork seals + oil was £120 labour (it was ride in ride out) I provided parts myself.


An old school trick is to use papertowels to get through an MOT.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 12:29 - 27 Sep 2018    Post subject: Re: Leaky fork seals, How much is too much, Or how little is Reply with quote
Jim Mc wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:

There will always be some oil on the stanchion else your seal would wear fast. It shouldn't be noticable though. If you clean it (and wipe the stanchion with clean oil on a clean cloth) how long does it take to become noticable?


Not sure how correct that is, as the tubes are coated in teflon to allow everything to slide, this is why you're supposed to keep them clean and free of grit so you don't scratch the teflon coating.


What "tubes"?
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 13:42 - 27 Sep 2018    Post subject: Re: Leaky fork seals, How much is too much, Or how little is Reply with quote
Jim Mc wrote:
Not sure how correct that is, as the tubes are coated in teflon to allow everything to slide, this is why you're supposed to keep them clean and free of grit so you don't scratch the teflon coating.


The tubes aren't covered with teflon the bushes are and these are further lubricated by the fork fluid as teflon by itself wouldn't last very long.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 14:11 - 27 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
sickpup wrote:

When fork seals go ALWAYS replace the bushes. The seals generally fail because of play between the fork top and bottom so the corrct question isn't 'did you use genuine seals' the correct question is 'did you replace the bushes?'


I usually do this due to your own advice from this very forum. However, I have had seals go when the bushes are perfect since trying to follow your advice...
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 17:25 - 27 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:
I usually do this due to your own advice from this very forum. However, I have had seals go when the bushes are perfect since trying to follow your advice...


Then unfortunately you are either fitting them wrong or there is something wrong with the chrome fork tubes. As you are simply returning the forks to standard with all tolerances correct on the replaced parts they are the only two variables left.

What do you use to fit the top bush and seal?
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Pigeon
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PostPosted: 19:51 - 27 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Worth trying a Sealmate first, does seems to work when the cause of a misting stanchion is a tiny bit of grit under the seal.
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Orennayar
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PostPosted: 21:23 - 27 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Seconding de sealmate option. I made a homemade one out of a plastic bottle 2 years ago and didn't have a leak again since. Just run it gently between the seal and the cylinder to get any dirt out of there and you might save yourself a trip to the garage. Thumbs Up
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 07:52 - 28 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
sickpup wrote:
MarJay wrote:
I usually do this due to your own advice from this very forum. However, I have had seals go when the bushes are perfect since trying to follow your advice...


Then unfortunately you are either fitting them wrong or there is something wrong with the chrome fork tubes. As you are simply returning the forks to standard with all tolerances correct on the replaced parts they are the only two variables left.

What do you use to fit the top bush and seal?


I used a home made fork seal tool made out of PVC pipe to fit the seals, and fitted the (split) bushes by hand. All brand new OEM. Stanchions are OK no pitting, but they may not have been OEM...
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Old Git Racing
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PostPosted: 09:14 - 28 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
I always use OEM seals now in my bikes and at work on the machinery I am involved with. The only times I've had trouble is when I've used aftermarket.
On the bikes I've only ever changed bushes once, on the race YPVS but had to fit aftermarket seals due to not having time to wait for oem's. They were ok for about 3 meetings. Replaced with oem's and they've been in since. On the road YPVS someone had put cheap shit seals in that leaked, replaced with oem, no bush changes (33 year old bike) been fine since.
All seals wear eventually. Aftermarket seals are cheaper for a reason, they are shitter.
As to how much oil leaking is ok, for me it would be none, whether for an mot or just normal because it always gets worse.

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.Chris.
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PostPosted: 11:38 - 28 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
A related question for Sickpup - when you say replace the bushes, do you mean just the top bushes or top and bottom? I need to do this job at some point but the bottom bushes for my bike are no longer available from Kawasaki.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 13:45 - 28 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
There is no point in replacing bushes that are not worn.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 06:56 - 29 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 CPT wrote:
Really? I've never replaced bushes when I've replaced fork seals on my race bike. The last set of genuine Yamaha seals have done 5 full seasons of racing and are still leak free.


And there we have it, the donk has gone full retard, well done Thumbs Up

I have put the relevant part of your post in bold and that is 'race bike' your bike does very little mileage compared to a road going bike so is a very bad comparison.

mpd72 CPT wrote:
Or they're not genuine seals as I said earlier?

When I was part of the YPM class, it was well known that non genuine ones were generally shit. If they leaked after replacement, more often than not it was the shoddy after market seals, not worn bushes.


There is a simple point you are missing and that is the original Yamaha seals had already gone before fitting the allegedly shoddy aftermarket seals, why?

mpd72 CPT wrote:
I bow to your superior knowledge though.


Not hard to be superior to you now is it.

Marjay

a good way of avoiding damage to the seal is to fit it from the bottom of the stanchion before the stanchion is fitted to the lower, that way it is being fitted over the part of the stanchion that virtually never has any damage as normally it is protected within the lower. Always lubricate the seal and fork leg before fitting, just the drag can damage the seal.

Let me know next time you do a set of fork seals and I'll lend you a driver, these aren't only for use fitting the seal but the top bush as well.

.Chris. wrote:
A related question for Sickpup - when you say replace the bushes, do you mean just the top bushes or top and bottom? I need to do this job at some point but the bottom bushes for my bike are no longer available from Kawasaki.


Check the dimensioons, they may be available as pattern parts for another bike.

Riejufixing wrote:
There is no point in replacing bushes that are not worn.


Except its a little hard to measure the thickness of teflon left on a bush.

Out of interest how often have you measured a bush while replacing fork seals?
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 07:17 - 29 Sep 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
My mate said he has to repair lots of leaky seals at the start of every summer - iirc his theory is that bikes stand through the autumn and winter, and probably some of the spring (!), then on the first ride, dry stanchions have to slide over dry seals, and the latter don't cope well with that. Don't take the dry literally. Means less oily.
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