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MikeM696
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PostPosted: 00:22 - 08 Nov 2018    Post subject: Safety of bike leathers (getting bike into bikes, noob Q) Reply with quote

So as per my other thread (https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=326126) I'm getting a bike again after a few glasses of single malt and an 'I did what???' moment on eBay Very Happy

Anyhooo, bike leathers, jacket & trousers or 2-piece rather than 1 piece (I'm 41... calls of nature & all that!)... after a little research, I understand there's CE1 & CE2, and this can apply to the protection IN a jacket/trousers, and/or the actual clothing item itself, is that right?

So with that in mind, am I right in thinking it'd be fair to say that opting for, say, a jacket that itself is CE1 and has CE1 armour or at least slots to stick some CE2 armour in, would be better than buying a non-CE jacket & but that has CE approved armour.

I just want to sense-check myself to help figure out what I'm buying!

Any thoughts would be appreciated, even if you say I've got it wrong and am talking shit! All info is useful (ESPECIALLY if I've got it wrong)!
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bacon
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PostPosted: 00:54 - 08 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless it's a track suit, then do yourself a favour and get a 2 piece.

I bought a one piece after growing out of my 2 piece, oh the joys of youth, and it was a mistake, it's a pain to put on, a pain to take off etc, also gives you male camel toe which a 2 piece doesnt.

A 2 piece also makes it easier to keep cool off of the bike, i.e jacket off. Just get a 2 piece :p
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MikeM696
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PostPosted: 01:04 - 08 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers for the info Smile I'm def. looking at a Jacket / Trouser, not 1-piece.

What do you think re: CE ratings (1 vs 2, some jackets CE on the armour only, some seem CE for the jacket, etc)?

I've been steered towards Frank Thomas gear but am thinking of trying to exchange (unused/labelled still!) for something liek Dainese or Alpine - any thoughts?

bacon wrote:
Unless it's a track suit, then do yourself a favour and get a 2 piece.

I bought a one piece after growing out of my 2 piece, oh the joys of youth, and it was a mistake, it's a pain to put on, a pain to take off etc, also gives you male camel toe which a 2 piece doesnt.

A 2 piece also makes it easier to keep cool off of the bike, i.e jacket off. Just get a 2 piece :p

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MCN
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PostPosted: 06:00 - 08 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

bacon wrote:
Unless it's a track suit, then do yourself a favour and get a 2 piece.

I bought a one piece after growing out of my 2 piece, oh the joys of youth, and it was a mistake, it's a pain to put on, a pain to take off etc, also gives you male camel toe which a 2 piece doesnt.

A 2 piece also makes it easier to keep cool off of the bike, i.e jacket off. Just get a 2 piece :p


I wear two piece and the ladies aye comment on my camel toe.

It depends on biology. Cool
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bacon
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PostPosted: 08:22 - 08 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha. My Arlen Ness 2 piece didn't pull into the balls that bad. Whereas this Spyke onesie really does pull my balls up. It's lovely and comfy on the bike, but walking around not so much, where the balls and old man have to pick a side.
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rpsmith79
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PostPosted: 09:09 - 08 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

CE Ratings are a minefield, as of April this year, all (new) motorcycle gear (sold as motorcycle gear) must now be CE approved as a garment of clothing (not just the armour) as it is now regarded as PPE

Previously, it was only the armour that was approved, so like you say, you can replace lvl 1 rated armour with lvl 2 if you fancy

There still seems to be plenty of companies selling non CE approved gear though, but whether this is new old stock, or manufacturers just chancing it until they get caught out, i really don't know, but there is a very good chance that buying any "generic" brand stuff off of eBay (from China China China) will almost certainly not CE approved

Personally, i just buy what fits me best, and is most comfortable, and as i don't ever intend doing trackdays or being a weekend power ranger, my kit generally consists of kevlar jeans and either leather or textile jacket
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talkToTheHat
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PostPosted: 09:39 - 08 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's several standards here, one is for the whole jacket itself, which is I think 2016:426, which is for both EN13595 abrasion resistance and EN1621 for impact protectors, you'll find it in AAA, AA, and A ratings. the more As the better, typically AAA is for sport/tarack use and I wouldn't buy a jacket and trousers that weren't AAA now the standard is here. Anything manufactured before may 2018 didn't have to be certified, but it's not allowed to be sold as PPE. Level 1 or 2 specificaly referrs to impact protection.


The safest kit is the kit you're wearing not what you left at home. Personally I'm not a huge fan for seporate back protectors for daily use as it's another thing to put on. Previously I was loong for what appeared to be the strongest jacket/trousers I could afford and swapping the armor out for level 2 stuff from forcefield or d30 depending on what fit. With manufacturers finally having to sell on safety its a lot easier to get kit with level 2 impact protection already in it.

Two piece kit is much easier to get into and much more practical for anything other that pure track use. Both halves should zip together and a two pice is usally permissible for trackdays. I tend to mix and match leathers and textiles for conditions, preferring leather tousers unless it's really cold, and having a vented jacket for heatwaves and a lined waterproof jacket for cold and wet weather. leather will see off a bit of drizzle but wet leather is horrible. If i'm in leather i keep an oversuit in my luggage or under the seat unless i'm confident in the weather.

Any off, even stationary will require impact protection, and unless you're colliding with road furniture then it's essentially as case of falling from bike level ish to the ground in therms of impact energy. I had a rear ending a few years ago at near stationary speeds and the bike knocked out from underneath me. You could see the outline of my boot and of the forcefield armour on my leg becuse tht was the border of a very nice bruise.

If you're moving when you go down it turns into sliding. Textiles work well at 30mph. I've had some kit destroyed hitting the deck at 20sih and other items were good to go with very minor repairs. The better textiles i've had probably made an A rating. There's very cheap stuff out there that falls apart with use, so CE rating is always good. Aldi branded kit for example has been CE rated for a few years, and I wouldnt touch it if it wasn;t becasue its so inexpensive. I'm not sure A rated kit is going to be completely adequate going down at motorway speeds, and I'm looking for AA textiles. Most leathers are AAA and you only have to watch motogp to see how well good leathers slide. Whilst quality leathers without a CE rating are probably good, you know CE rated leathers are going to be good.

Look at the SHARP scheme for helmets Plenty of 5* helmets out there for sensible prices. Some of the cheaper ones have rubbish vents, flimsy-afterthought sunvisors or suchlike, but there are plenty of big name and pricey helmets that don't score so well, although market pressures are changing that.

https://www.bikestop.co.uk/blog/bike-stops-guide-to-ppe-regulation-2016425
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rpsmith79
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PostPosted: 10:09 - 08 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just checked online, and my new Bull-It Jeans are actually AAA rated, so you can indeed get good quality textile gear, and stuff that doesn't break the bank either (i paid just over £100 for them)
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MikeM696
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PostPosted: 10:55 - 08 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brilliant post with loads of food for thought.

re: CE for entire jacket and A / AA / AAA, checking the kit they sold me, I can see it says CE approved armour at shoulders & elbows, but I can't see if the jacket itself is CE approved, nor any A / AA / AAA rating? Do they not have to publish this info?

For ref, these are the products (links DEFINITELY NOT an endorsement!)

https://www.jsaccessories.co.uk/buy/frank-thomas-dynamic-jacket-black-white/18181

https://www.jsaccessories.co.uk/buy/Frank-Thomas-Dynamic-Jeans/18182.htm



talkToTheHat wrote:
There's several standards here, one is for the whole jacket itself, which is I think 2016:426, which is for both EN13595 abrasion resistance and EN1621 for impact protectors, you'll find it in AAA, AA, and A ratings. the more As the better, typically AAA is for sport/tarack use and I wouldn't buy a jacket and trousers that weren't AAA now the standard is here. Anything manufactured before may 2018 didn't have to be certified, but it's not allowed to be sold as PPE. Level 1 or 2 specificaly referrs to impact protection.


The safest kit is the kit you're wearing not what you left at home. Personally I'm not a huge fan for seporate back protectors for daily use as it's another thing to put on. Previously I was loong for what appeared to be the strongest jacket/trousers I could afford and swapping the armor out for level 2 stuff from forcefield or d30 depending on what fit. With manufacturers finally having to sell on safety its a lot easier to get kit with level 2 impact protection already in it.

Two piece kit is much easier to get into and much more practical for anything other that pure track use. Both halves should zip together and a two pice is usally permissible for trackdays. I tend to mix and match leathers and textiles for conditions, preferring leather tousers unless it's really cold, and having a vented jacket for heatwaves and a lined waterproof jacket for cold and wet weather. leather will see off a bit of drizzle but wet leather is horrible. If i'm in leather i keep an oversuit in my luggage or under the seat unless i'm confident in the weather.

Any off, even stationary will require impact protection, and unless you're colliding with road furniture then it's essentially as case of falling from bike level ish to the ground in therms of impact energy. I had a rear ending a few years ago at near stationary speeds and the bike knocked out from underneath me. You could see the outline of my boot and of the forcefield armour on my leg becuse tht was the border of a very nice bruise.

If you're moving when you go down it turns into sliding. Textiles work well at 30mph. I've had some kit destroyed hitting the deck at 20sih and other items were good to go with very minor repairs. The better textiles i've had probably made an A rating. There's very cheap stuff out there that falls apart with use, so CE rating is always good. Aldi branded kit for example has been CE rated for a few years, and I wouldnt touch it if it wasn;t becasue its so inexpensive. I'm not sure A rated kit is going to be completely adequate going down at motorway speeds, and I'm looking for AA textiles. Most leathers are AAA and you only have to watch motogp to see how well good leathers slide. Whilst quality leathers without a CE rating are probably good, you know CE rated leathers are going to be good.

Look at the SHARP scheme for helmets Plenty of 5* helmets out there for sensible prices. Some of the cheaper ones have rubbish vents, flimsy-afterthought sunvisors or suchlike, but there are plenty of big name and pricey helmets that don't score so well, although market pressures are changing that.

https://www.bikestop.co.uk/blog/bike-stops-guide-to-ppe-regulation-2016425

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MikeM696
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PostPosted: 10:58 - 08 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers for the info - very interesting.

Any way to tell if the stuff they sold me (linked above) is CE approved as a jacket, not just the armour?

[EDIT ON THE BELOW] - This is re: the new regs, right? https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/features/product/motorcycle-clothing-the-ce-approval-law-explained
Also - in case it comes up in argument - sorry... discussion, do you happen to have a link to the April regs (or just the name of it or something so I can hunt it down).

Cheers a ton! Working on an email for later today re: exchanging gear (jacket, leather jeans, gloves!).

rpsmith79 wrote:
CE Ratings are a minefield, as of April this year, all (new) motorcycle gear (sold as motorcycle gear) must now be CE approved as a garment of clothing (not just the armour) as it is now regarded as PPE

Previously, it was only the armour that was approved, so like you say, you can replace lvl 1 rated armour with lvl 2 if you fancy

There still seems to be plenty of companies selling non CE approved gear though, but whether this is new old stock, or manufacturers just chancing it until they get caught out, i really don't know, but there is a very good chance that buying any "generic" brand stuff off of eBay (from China China China) will almost certainly not CE approved

Personally, i just buy what fits me best, and is most comfortable, and as i don't ever intend doing trackdays or being a weekend power ranger, my kit generally consists of kevlar jeans and either leather or textile jacket

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ART-ADS
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PostPosted: 11:00 - 08 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

id go with buying stuff you'll wear, no point getting full power ranger leathers to find out you hate looking like you're about to fight crime every time you park up and walk around town. depending on what you are using the bike for, if you are just going for sunny Sunday rides like the weekend wankers it doesn't really matter how easy it is to walk about, but if you are getting into bikes to actually use like the form of transportation it is, work boots, Kevlar jeans and a plain black leather jacket is probably the way to go if you're sensible enough to wear the right protection

IMHO
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MikeM696
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PostPosted: 11:10 - 08 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm so the jacket has a disclaimer inside on a label, saying it's NOT considered PPE.

I think I'll use this as the reason for wanting to return the gear. I get what ART-ADS says about not looking like a power ranger Very Happy (I'd look like a power ranger with a beer belly anyway! NOT a good look), but I reckon as I'm buying gear, might as well get gear that conforms to a decent safety standard (though it seems a minefield!).

If the new regs say it HAS to be PPE, how the hell can they get away with selling stuff that isn't & adding a disclaimer?

https://www.bikechatforums.com/download.php?id=101735

rpsmith79 wrote:
CE Ratings are a minefield, as of April this year, all (new) motorcycle gear (sold as motorcycle gear) must now be CE approved as a garment of clothing (not just the armour) as it is now regarded as PPE

Previously, it was only the armour that was approved, so like you say, you can replace lvl 1 rated armour with lvl 2 if you fancy

There still seems to be plenty of companies selling non CE approved gear though, but whether this is new old stock, or manufacturers just chancing it until they get caught out, i really don't know, but there is a very good chance that buying any "generic" brand stuff off of eBay (from China China China) will almost certainly not CE approved

Personally, i just buy what fits me best, and is most comfortable, and as i don't ever intend doing trackdays or being a weekend power ranger, my kit generally consists of kevlar jeans and either leather or textile jacket

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rpsmith79
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PostPosted: 11:53 - 08 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

As i say, i think the new regulations only apply to "new" gear being sold, so there there is still plenty of new "old" stock being sold off, which seems to be a bit of a "get out of jail free" card, but i haven't seen anything in writing saying this, or how long this "transition period" actually is

The same sort of thing happened last year, when all 125cc bikes had to be Euro 3/4/5 (whatever it was) compliant, manufacturers just pre-registered hundred of bikes the week before the regs came in, so they could still sell the older non-Euro compliant bikes
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talkToTheHat
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PostPosted: 16:32 - 08 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

MikeM696 wrote:
Hmmm so the jacket has a disclaimer inside on a label, saying it's NOT considered PPE.


If it was sold as 'motorcycle clothing' after may 2018 then trading standards time
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 00:41 - 09 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main thing is not to fall off, then you could be riding in a shellsuit and it wouldn't matter.

You achieve this through good observation and training.

Remember, a red cabbage and cheese sandwich passes the impact test requirements for CE body armour.
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MikeM696
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PostPosted: 01:23 - 09 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, it was! Luckily they've agreed to exchange, so that's ok in the end!

talkToTheHat wrote:
MikeM696 wrote:
Hmmm so the jacket has a disclaimer inside on a label, saying it's NOT considered PPE.


If it was sold as 'motorcycle clothing' after may 2018 then trading standards time

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MikeM696
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PostPosted: 01:52 - 09 Nov 2018    Post subject: CE Category II Vs AAA? Reply with quote

Okay, so anyone know the difference in level of CE Category II, vs the new AAA rating?
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rpsmith79
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PostPosted: 09:05 - 09 Nov 2018    Post subject: Re: CE Category II Vs AAA? Reply with quote

MikeM696 wrote:
Okay, so anyone know the difference in level of CE Category II, vs the new AAA rating?


Did you not read your own link Wink

MikeM696 wrote:


How does the new testing compare to the previous standard?
EN13595 uses two test levels, with the body divided into four zones: Zone 1 must have impact protectors, and along with zone 2, needs to last four seconds on the Cambridge Abrasion Machine to meet Level 1 protection, and 7seconds to meet Level 2. Zone 3 requires 1.8seconds for Level 1 and 2.5 for level 2, while zone 4 can be used for ventilation and stretch panels, but must still last 1second on the abrasion rig for Level 1, and 1.5seconds for Level 2.

prEN17092 has five test levels, covering three key zones of the garment – Zone 1, Zone 2 and Zone 3, with samples tested on a Darmstadt machine that spins them at a set speed until they’re dropped onto a slab of control concrete where they slow to a stop.

Classification AAA: The highest level, demanding four seconds of abrasion resistance with the machine spinning at 707.4rpm (the equivalent of 120km/h) in Zone 1, two seconds at 442.1rpm (about 75km/h) in Zone 2 and one second at 265rpm (around 45km/h) in Zone 3.

Classification AA: More suited to touring gear, this specifies two seconds in Zone 1 at 412.6rpm (about 70km/h), one second at 265.3rpm in Zone 2 and 0.5 seconds at 147.4rpm (the equivalent of around 25kmh) in Zone 3.

Classification A: Deemed suitable for urban riding, with Zone 1 requiring one second of abrasion resistance at 265.3rpm and half a second at 147.4rpm in Zone 2.

Classification B is the same as A, but impact protectors are not required.

Classification C covers garments such as the mesh under-suits that have impact protection for off-road riding.
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talkToTheHat
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PostPosted: 11:57 - 09 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

there are some major differences between the cambridge and darmstadt methods. cambridge uses a modified belt sander and times untill a wire behind the sample is broken

darmstadt machine spins sampes around up to the noted RPM (and delierately avoids converting angular speed into linear to avoid upsetting manufacturers) and drops the assembly unpowered onto concrete

On a cambridge machine you get a time indicating just how good the material is, darmstadt is pure pass/fail and much less use for determining pass by how much or fail how badly, similarly you need to to do separate tests for each levelof the standard
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PostPosted: 01:57 - 10 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

MikeM696 wrote:
Hmmm so the jacket has a disclaimer inside on a label, saying it's NOT considered PPE.

I think I'll use this as the reason for wanting to return the gear. I get what ART-ADS says about not looking like a power ranger Very Happy (I'd look like a power ranger with a beer belly anyway! NOT a good look), but I reckon as I'm buying gear, might as well get gear that conforms to a decent safety standard (though it seems a minefield!).

If the new regs say it HAS to be PPE, how the hell can they get away with selling stuff that isn't & adding a disclaimer?



Some small companies don't have the resources to buy tests and certify their products. Not to mention the new tests are step back IMO because they have relaxed the testing for example I beleive old CE Level 2 was abrassion test say 7 seconds, new tests are less and only for some specific areas.

Personally I would buy this leathers for your price range: http://www.harpers.eu/item6029.htm
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PostPosted: 03:12 - 10 Nov 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thou shalt not speak of [name retracted] on BCF. Sick
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