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Police Issuing Speeding Tickets to the Wrong People

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ian505050
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PostPosted: 17:17 - 05 Dec 2018    Post subject: Police Issuing Speeding Tickets to the Wrong People Reply with quote

So I am writing this post as a bit of guidance following my recent findings after having had to prove I was incorrectly issued speeding tickets while on my motorbike

INCORRECT NIP 1
I was issued with a NIP (Notice of Intent to Prosecute)

It states I was doing 69mph in a 60mph zone at 19:25 on 12.9.18 on my motorcycle.

I received the NIP in the post 3 days later on 15.9.18.

The NIP was issued by North Yorkshire Police and has the correct Registration but they have not provided any evidence photos (which is common practice)

The Location of the offence is detailed as B6451 Long Stoop Farm, South of A59 Junction. I know this route extremely well as I have travelled this route over the past few years hundreds of times. Google 'long stoop Harrogate HG3 1SN' to find the location of the farm close to the B6451

On the date of the alleged offence I was following another random motorcycle at the speed limit along some twisty roads past The Sun Inn (Near Harrogate) and heading north along the B6451.

As you are travelling along the B6451 North Bound you approach a section of road approximately 0.8 km long that is very straight but has a slight hidden dip and a lay-by where a speed camera van parks (hides) facing the traffic approaching the A59 Junction. I am very aware of this speed camera van location as about 6 months ago I received a speeding ticket from the van parked in this location.

As I approached the 0.8km section of road where my bike is visible to the speed camera van I slowed down to perhaps 50mph just to be super safe. At that point I noticed that the random motorcycle in front of me did not slow down and in-fact accelerated as we started the straight where the speed camera van was located. I felt sorry for the guy as he had not noticed the speed camera van in the distance and he accelerated to perhaps 70 to 80 mph as he approached the camera van. It seems he panic braked about 300m before the camera van which was probably too late and he would more than likely receive a ticket.

I was without doubt that I did not travel at more than 50mph for the full section of the road and clearly nowhere near 69mph (that's quite a big difference)

So after many months of email correspondence between myself and the police I was finally sent the following email:-

I received the following from North Yorkshire Police after making an official complaint.

Dear Mr. Xxxxxx

Further to your correspondence recently received regarding an incorrectly issued Notice of Intended Prosecution for your motorbike, I have tried to call you to discuss this personally but only got through to your voicemail.

Firstly, please accept my apologies that you received a NIP that was issued in error – which is a matter we take very seriously. I have reviewed the alleged offence in detail and can confirm that in this instance there was an administration error, which resulted in you receiving incorrect correspondence.



Your complaint makes reference specifically to motorcyclists, rather than drivers as a whole and I can confirm that all offences are treated equally showing no bias towards a specific type of motor vehicle. It is an unfortunate human error (not a departmental system error) that has resulted in you, as the registered keeper of a motorcycle, receiving this correspondence.

I am sure you can appreciate that we process a large volume of offences every day, and issues like this are rare.

However, I will personally provide feedback to the member of staff who processed xxxxxxxxxxx520 to reiterate the importance of data accuracy and quality as well as explaining what has occurred as the result of their error.


I can only apologise that the letter you received did not appear to cover what led to you receiving incorrect correspondence, and I hope this email resolves this for you.


If you have further questions, then please do not hesitate to contact me directly and I will be happy to address them.


Please accept my apologies once again, for the time taken seeking legal advice and subsequent stress you have received as a result of this error.

Traffic Bureau Team Leader

North Yorkshire Police
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ian505050
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PostPosted: 17:42 - 05 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

So.... as your probably wondering how this happened and how i resolved the issue.

The police stated that the ticket was issued due to an 'administration error'. Which is a very vague reason that means nothing really.

They also failed to provide me with photographs of the offence with the NIP that i was issued and ignored my request for photos after sending emails to the Traffic Bureau.

This was very frustrating as i knew i was not speeding but was unable to prove this.

So I decided to request photographs of the offence using GDPR and the freedom of information act as this was my last hope of confirming i was innocent.

After waiting a month i was given a rear facing photo of myself on my motorcycle on the correct day, time and location and number plate.

Unfortunately the evidence provided for the front facing photo (which was the view down the telescope attached to the speed gun) was a completely different motorcycle and rider.

It then became apparent that they had issued the speeding ticket to me and not the actual speeding rider........ who sped of into the distance wondering how he got away with it.

It seems the system they use to catch motorcyclists is flawed as motorcycle don't have a front facing number plate but the police use this as evidence to issue a speeding ticket! Surely a motorcyclist should only be able to be caught speeding from behind with the number plate in view

So the moral of the story is not to believe you are guilty until it can be proved and always request photographs via GDPR if your police authority does not provide them with the NIP.
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ian505050
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PostPosted: 17:45 - 05 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a final note the same police authority issued me another speeding ticket for a road that i had not even been on. When i requested the photographs using GDPR and the Freedom of information act i found that the photographs did not show my motorcycle on the road that was detailed on the NIP.

looks like yet another 'Administration Error'
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owl
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PostPosted: 17:54 - 05 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

any chance of plate cloning or do you believe it was just human error mismatch?
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Fizzer Thou
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PostPosted: 20:19 - 05 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how many other people have been sent NIPs and just coughed up the fine and taken the points Thinking
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dydey90
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PostPosted: 21:01 - 05 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fizzer Thou wrote:
I wonder how many other people have been sent NIPs and just coughed up the fine and taken the points Thinking


I’ll tell you next week when I get one. I was flashed on the M62 for travelling at 70mph when the signs were switched off. Looking forward to that letter.
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Courier265
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PostPosted: 21:17 - 05 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got issued an NIP some years ago, the NIP arrived in the post but the date of the alleged offence was the day AFTER I received the NIP.

Now that was an cock up, the cops didn't set the date on the machine. Laughing Laughing Laughing
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 10:11 - 06 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

owl wrote:
any chance of plate cloning or do you believe it was just human error mismatch?


At first I was expecting the OP to say he was at home with the kittens watching TV when it happened, then as the story went on, it seems he was on the right road at the time of the offence and remembers slowing down for the speed camera, when a bike in front didn't.

If it really happened like I read it, this sounds like the camera operative just manually grabbed the wrong reg plate after clocking the bike in front with a front facing camera.

Photographic evidence would have been good too, because anyone in theory could use this defence if their system really is that hit and miss.
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Wonko The Sane
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PostPosted: 18:38 - 06 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

dydey90 wrote:
Fizzer Thou wrote:
I wonder how many other people have been sent NIPs and just coughed up the fine and taken the points Thinking


I’ll tell you next week when I get one. I was flashed on the M62 for travelling at 70mph when the signs were switched off. Looking forward to that letter.


I skidded through one in the car about a month back.

Late night, no signs at all on and on a curved bit of the M60 the gantry is showing 20mph, think I skidded through at about 40mph, next gantry was at 60mph
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M.C
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PostPosted: 18:43 - 06 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wonko The Sane wrote:
I skidded through one in the car about a month back.

Late night, no signs at all on and on a curved bit of the M60 the gantry is showing 20mph, think I skidded through at about 40mph, next gantry was at 60mph

Confused I'm sure these smart motorways, and average speed cameras are making motorways more dangerous. The amount of 'unnecessary' braking you see now is unbelievable. I thought motorways were the safest roads, and one person braking for no reason can cause a tailback miles behind.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 18:46 - 06 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some Scamera vans are fitted with the forward facing cameras just to Nick cnuts on bikes.
I think it has to be activated by the Big Fat Pie-Eating Fuk-Pig inside the van. I cant see any of those useless cnuts beimg very nimble or quick in the back of a van though. Unless it involved scoffing a packet of Rich Tea off

You bikers will break the law so you brought that shit down on yourselves. 🤣
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andyscooter
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PostPosted: 09:32 - 07 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="mpd72 CPT"]
owl wrote:
t.

If it really happened like I read it, this sounds like the camera operative just manually grabbed the wrong reg plate after clocking the bike in front with a front facing camera.

.




that's how I cot done

pulled out my road

accelerated up to 36 as slight slope and it levelled out saw van slowed down

20 yards after van turned right

week later nip drops through the door same day I passed my driving test Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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Fourte
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PostPosted: 13:28 - 07 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure those camera vans are operated by civilians and actually funded through county councils these days?

The story reminded me of this one - biker knew a fixed camera couldn't get his plate if he drove towards it..

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/reckless-foolish-biker-caught-doing-3863256
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ian505050
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PostPosted: 13:55 - 07 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 CPT wrote:
owl wrote:
any chance of plate cloning or do you believe it was just human error mismatch?


At first I was expecting the OP to say he was at home with the kittens watching TV when it happened, then as the story went on, it seems he was on the right road at the time of the offence and remembers slowing down for the speed camera, when a bike in front didn't.

If it really happened like I read it, this sounds like the camera operative just manually grabbed the wrong reg plate after clocking the bike in front with a front facing camera.

Photographic evidence would have been good too, because anyone in theory could use this defence if their system really is that hit and miss.


Yes that's exactly what happened, You hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately as this specific police authority don't issue photos with the NIP the majority of people may just accept the speeding ticket for an offence they have not committed.
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ian505050
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Joined: 27 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 14:05 - 07 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Wonko The Sane wrote:
I skidded through one in the car about a month back.

Late night, no signs at all on and on a curved bit of the M60 the gantry is showing 20mph, think I skidded through at about 40mph, next gantry was at 60mph

Confused I'm sure these smart motorways, and average speed cameras are making motorways more dangerous. The amount of 'unnecessary' braking you see now is unbelievable. I thought motorways were the safest roads, and one person braking for no reason can cause a tailback miles behind.


Don't mention smart motorways to me.........

I have had 3 incorrectly issued letters from the police and highways England falsely accusing me of using the wrong lane at the wrong time in my car. The only way i ended up avoiding points on my licence and a fine was that i had a dash cam to prove i was innocent ant the smart motorways system is fundamentally flawed. My dash cam showed what lane i was in and what the 'smart signage' showed at the time of alleged offence.

See Below the response i received from Highways England.


This was the response i received from Highways England:-


Dear Mr XXXXXXXX


Sorry for the delay in responding to your enquiry. We have been investigating the reasons why we issued advisory letters to you and are currently collating responses to your questions.



With respect to the advisory letters you received, we can confirm that the letter we sent you with respect to an alleged contravention of a red ‘X’ lane closure sign on 31 October 2017 at 08:00 was sent in error (HE0792/17/0086, dated 7 November 2017). For this, we apologise.


Regrettably, the systems we employ to identify offending vehicles and issue advisory letters occasionally identify vehicle registrations incorrectly. Following investigation, we confirm that your vehicle was mis-identified on 31 October 2017.


We are considering measures that will reduce this type of error in future and will be updating our records accordingly.



We understand the other letter (HE0738/17/0085, dated 24 October 2017) refers to the alleged use of the hard shoulder between M62 junctions 27 and 26 on 16 October 2017 at 13:20. We confirm that at that time:


- the hard shoulder was not in use as a traffic lane, having been closed to traffic at 09:25 that morning;

- the signals above each lane were all off (blank); and

- variable message signs part-way between junctions 27 and 26 were displaying the message, “Hard shoulder for emergency use only.”


We note that when the hard shoulder is in use as a traffic lane:


- a speed limit will be displayed directly above it; and

- on the M62 between junctions 27 and 26, the messages “Use hard shoulder” and “Hard shoulder for J26 only” will usually be displayed.


We do not have any further information about your vehicle or the circumstances which led it to be identified as using the hard shoulder on the 16 October 2017 at 13:20.



We still need to respond to your questions. We are aiming to provide you with a response within the next two weeks.


Should you have any further queries regarding the letter you received or this email, please contact me directly.


Yours sincerely


Nick Pinnington, Project Manager, Red X and Hard Shoulder Compliance
Highways England | The Cube | 199 Wharfside Street | Birmingham | B1 1RN
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ian505050
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PostPosted: 14:10 - 07 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I had confirmed the Smart Motorway System was obviously flawed i decided to investigate and put forward a long list of questions to Highways England as i needed to fully understand how the system works (or does not work) to avoid ending up in a situation where i would loose my licence.

The questions and answers were as follows:-

Why is it not a sensible solution to place a Red x above any lane that is not to used (Including the hard shoulder when its closed)?


We routinely use red X signs to close lanes in the event of an incident. This option was also considered during the development of the arrangements for opening and closing motorway hard shoulders that become a traffic lane at peak times. However, the option was discounted because the red X could not be maintained over the hard shoulder in the event of a power or sign failure.



Question 1

Should I pass a single camera monitoring a hard shoulder closed as a running lane committing an offence what fine would I receive and how many points would I receive on my licence?

Answer

Misuse of a motorway hard shoulder is subject to a £100 fine and three driving licence penalty points.



Question 2

Should I pass several cameras monitoring a hard shoulder closed as a running lane committing an offence what fine would I receive and how many points would I receive on my licence?

Answer

In the circumstances you describe, the relevant police enforcement authority would be responsible for determining how many offences had been committed and the course of action to be taken.



Question 3

Should I pass under a smart motorway speed camera and be judged to have committing a speeding offence what evidence will be provided to confirm speed detailed on the sign at the exact moment the alleged offence occurred.


Answer
The speed limit shown on the sign is recorded by the camera system.



Question 4

Should I pass under a smart motorway hard shoulder closed as a running lane and be judged to have committing an offence what evidence will be provided to confirm the hard shoulder was closed and what was detailed on the sign at the exact moment the alleged offence occurred.

Answer

Records of sign settings can confirm the status of a hard shoulder that becomes a traffic lane at peak times.



Question 5

When approaching a sign that changes from 60mph to 50mph instantaneously at what point does the system (speed camera) start issuing fines to the drivers. What is the delay period one the sign has changed.

Answer

An allowance is made for drivers to adapt to the new speed limit following a change in the limit displayed.



Question 6

Please advise speed camera tolerance before I speeding fine is issued for a 70,60,50, and 40 mph sign.

Answer
This is a matter for the relevant police enforcement authority.



Question 7

Do the Smart Motorway speed cameras detect the type of vehicle (lorry or car with trailer) that have different speed limits on the motorway?

Answer

The camera system allows identification of the type of vehicle committing a speeding offence.



Question 8

When a smart motorway sign fails how long will it take to repair the sign as several signs have not been working for about 3 months.

Answer

Signs are repaired or replaced at the earliest opportunity. Maintenance activities are subject to obtaining safe access to the signs and fitting in with other, potentially conflicting, maintenance works that may be taking place





As discussed this morning, I shall also send this information to you by post should email difficulties prevent you from receiving this message.



Should you have any further queries regarding the letter you received or this email, please contact me directly.



Yours sincerely



Nick Pinnington, Project Manager, Red X and Hard Shoulder Compliance
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AshWebster
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PostPosted: 15:29 - 07 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like he was avoinding the "How do we know if the sign was working or not" question. Unless they have a camera watching the sign too?
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M.C
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PostPosted: 17:09 - 07 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

ian505050 wrote:
My dash cam showed what lane i was in and what the 'smart signage' showed at the time of alleged offence.

How long do you keep your footage for, 2 weeks? I've never thought of keeping footage to contest tickets.
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ian505050
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Joined: 27 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 14:23 - 10 Dec 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
ian505050 wrote:
My dash cam showed what lane i was in and what the 'smart signage' showed at the time of alleged offence.

How long do you keep your footage for, 2 weeks? I've never thought of keeping footage to contest tickets.


I have the largest possible memory card in my dash cam so it depends on how much driving i do each week on my commute but i think i have the past 2 weeks of driving more often than not.

Its depressing the my dash cam has been used more more times to protect my wallet from the Police/Government than it has from Thugs and Bad Drivers.
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