My first slide! Bike tried to kill me!

[SirFallalot]

Hello guys!

It is with great pleasure I announce my first slide, where my bike tried to kill me! (If anyone cares to read)

I was doing 40mph on the A40 flyover, enjoying the low 20:30 traffic and the cool wind, when suddently the bike disappeared.
It happened so fast that I don't remember if it was tumnle tumble slide, or slide tumble slide, I know fell side first and forwards. Do you guys find that you can't remember what happened very well?

The weird bit for me was my first thought was "uh? wtf" followed by "this is gonna hurt", but it surprisingly didn't. I just slid for about 20m I think, it was a few seconds, then quickly got up and ran to the bike which was another 10-20m down, turned it off, got the side stand out and pulled it up. A good chap stopped and helped me get drag it off the road (well it was in his way anyway), I was struggling because the wheels were stuck, still not understanding what had caused the sudden crash.

I could have probably gotten home, despite a broken mirror, but at the time I thought the rear brake had suddenly seized (had happened before even without applying), although I thought it weird because the last time the bike just slowed down. Then I noticed the front mudguard jammed into the tire, but I thought it was afterwards and help was already on the way. Honestly there were too many vehicles flying past too close for me to investigate further. I just called breakdown and got the ride home (2 hours after the crash!)

Damage report, not bad at all, my right tight hurts where I landed, but I'm all fine, my trousers have a few scuffs on the knees and tight/waist area, (I actually almost left them at the office, glad I didn't), the gloves have some palm scuff, the helmet has some small scuffs where I think my teeth would be. Can include some photos if you guys fancy.

I don't want to impose the ideology or anything, but I definitely believe that had I been without my gear and an open face lid, I would have called an ambulance instead.

Today I took the underground in because I got home very late, but today I'll remove the mudguard and be back on the bike tomorrow. It didn't scare me too much or hurt my confidence, because I don't feel it was my fault. I knew it was a possibility that would happen someday.

The mudguard supports actually snapped off? I can include some photos maybe, but I think this should be covered by warranty, seems like a materials defect to me no?? The bike recently had the first service, and just last week it needed to have the clutch replaced under warranty (the idiot who assembled the bike misadjusted the clutch cable, and it never fully contacted, when the rear brake seized it causes massive wear on the clutch, first bike, I didn't know any better).

It's only 4 months old ffs, the co owner insisted on it because it has 2 years warranty, well I'd have preferred a good used bike that wouldn't need the warranty, or try to kill me! Don't want to bash Lexmoto, they've their place, but we all know we get what we pay for.

I know it was meek compared to a lot of your high speed crashes and whatnot, but I still wanted to share the experience.

[Tankie]

Sounds like metal fatigue, if the machine is under warranty take some photo's and try to enter a dialog with the dealer and the maker.
I was in my local drinking hole last night and an acquaintance was explaining he had not been in because he had come off after the front had gone away from under him leaving him in the middle of the road with a broken hip, we then got into a conversation about open faced helmets, strange but true
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Always learning, everyday is a school day

[iooi]

You sure that the damage is not the result of the fall and not the cause of it?
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Just because my bike was A DIVVY, does not mean i am......

[Teflon-Mike]

[Bhud]

Take photos of the damage and post them here. They will tell the story of what happened.

[SirFallalot]

Well, I did not expect such a hard scolding Teflon-Mike, but I do get your point. And will even thank you for it. I'm currently studying for the theory test, and initially planned to do A2, but was advised to ride around on CBT and wait until next January to do the full A instead of doing it twice. I'm still uncertain.

Regarding operator error specifically, if it was something I did, I wouldn't divert blame or lie about it. It was a straight line, I wasn't speeding or fooling around, and I always keep my foot on the peg and off the brake completely when not stopped to avoid riding it, and suddenly the bike just goes

My conclusion is the constant bumping from the A40 caused the brackets to break or the bolts to come loose.

Here's some photos of when I got home.

https://postimg.cc/gallery/3i8zkisl6/

Mind, The guard was jammed in the wheel, the recovery guy bent it out of the way to move it.

It would be reasonable to say the guard broke off because I fell, but would it jam the wheel if that was the case? And why did I fall in the first place? There was no warning, no input, I was on the bike, then I wasn't, magic

Another observation is, on the front photo, you can see the rods that connect the guard to the bracket? Why are the so much bent outwards in a V, surely they should be closed? Especially with the fall. It looks as if they were forcing the brackets open, and they eventually broke. Although I also don't understand how the brackets coming loose would make it jam, since they still have the rear support? Or maybe it was the other missing bit of metal that went into the wheel??


I can take more photos when I get home, but the other places with damage is the bar end, brake level, the ball end is half scrapped off and the foot rest, the brake lever seemed fine as it doesn't produce outwards.

I'm also not intending to get in an argument, I'm honestly trying to understand and would be glad if you pitch in, even if it's with a good scolding.

[bhinso]

Tbh I didn't expect such a short scolding from Tef

[SirFallalot]

[Bhud]

I had a look at the photos and tried my hand at a bit of amateur forensics.

Are you that Extra Jell bloke in the New Bikers thread? You look like I would expect him to look. LOL just kidding.

OK, the issue here is the big question of which came first. From the pictures, I'd say there is no doubt at all that the mudguard retaining attachments on the forks snapped at their weakest point. We can all agree on that. The big question here is whether you are correct in your supposition that these parts failed before you took a dive, or whether they failed at some point during or after the crash.

What muddies the waters somewhat is the fact that you don't have a clear recollection of what happened, as you yourself admit. In addition, that a multitude of novice errors might easily account for any crash caused by the rider losing control of the front end. As Tef said, the company Lexmoto will have a specs sheet and QC, and details of bench and any other testing, to prove that their bikes, however shoddily built, are safe for the road and are not liable to suddenly and unexpectedly fail. On the other hand, you don't have years of experience, nor a licence. So the rather serious allegation here, that there was a potentially lethal manufacturing fault, is one they (the company) would strenuously rebut.

That's the first issue. The second is that there are other potential causes for the damage pattern I see in your photos, and they include post-crash damage. When you say that the wire rod is unnaturally splayed out, I would have to ask, is it normally manufactured that way? In other words, is it a component under tension when it's attached to the mudguard?

In addition, there are some scratches on the front mudguard. Let's consider what happened to your helmet. You say there's damage in the chin area. This is a relatively less usual area of a helmet to suffer damage in a crash. Usually, damage is more sited to the sides of the helmet. The fact it's scratched up in the chin area strongly suggests you face-planted at some point. When you did so, the bike may have done the same (which would be consistent with the scratch on the front mudguard). This would easily be enough force to break the mudguard retaining attachments. It would also be enough to deform that bit of wire you say is peculiarly V-shaped. In fact, imagine the bike tumbling forward. At some point, the weight of the bike will hit the tip of the front mudguard. At that time, the mudguard is likely to:

1) Get jammed up, locking the front wheel.
2) Be under pressure to deform in an outward 'splaying' pattern consistent with the deformed(?) wire component.
3) Get a scratch on top, from the tarmac.
4) Put enough pressure on its mounting points (on the forks) to snap those mounting points.

All of the above could also happen if the bike slid into a parked car or piece of road furniture as you were tumbling down the road.

This is the problem: there is no account of what happened to the bike or yourself at the time of the crash - only the aftermath. All of the damage can be explained by other means than component failure having caused a crash. There is no data about this having happened to anyone else with the same make and model of bike, and the front wheel could be locked up by any number of different causes, including rider error.

Inconclusive.

[Freddyfruitba...]

I think I agree with Bhud's assessment.

If you genuinely have no idea what caused you to lose it - eg nothing hit you, there was no obstruction in the road, and you weren't doing any particular manouevre at the time (you were simply riding along in a straight line minding your own business, and the bike went from under you?) I'd be looking at something having seized. Can't be the engine, as you say you had to switch that off afterwards. With the broken mudguard out of the way, do both wheels now spin freely?

Tef's binding back-brake theory sounds the most plausible to me...
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KC100->CB100N->CB250RS--------->DL650AL2->R1200RS->R1250RS

[Kawasaki Jimbo]

If a failing mudguard stay had caused the front wheel to lock at 40 mph there would be some pretty obvious tell-tale marks on the tyre and maybe the wheel and forks. You'd probably have a job to push the mudguard back out of the way too. More likely what Bhud said, the bike went down, the bars turned and the tip of the mudguard hit the deck, snapping the stays. It could have been a diesel spill, a gust of wind, a nudge from a car or a pothole perhaps. I'd go back to the scene (safely) and have a look in daylight.

[Teflon-Mike]

The pics don't really tell me very much. It looks like a clean break, and that would hint that the damage is consequence not cause.

If a component fails, to cause an accident, then the metal will go at a crack, that propagates and grows over time. The faces of the break then will gather dirt and grime or tarnish where the crack starts, and you can usually see where that crack was, before it 'went' (by a mechanism known as fast fracture, when the crack reaches critical length)

What's in pics looks like a clean break with no tarnishing at the initiation point, which suggests a sudden impact rather than a creep. So much more likely to be an effect of the accident than it's cause.

And as said... it's your bike.... your responsibility. IF the mudguard stay was going, then you 'should' have spotted the onset of failure during your daily pre-ride CBT checks, when you looked at the tyres and checked tyre pressure..... so it still gets chucked back to you some.

Dead straight road, and you suddenly and unexpectedly 'go down'....

Yeah..... odd one...

If the back end 'went', then the bike would tend to shimmy or skid and drag its arse, not chuck you over the bars, which would point towards a front end loss of traction.

On that one, the old-lore is that when a front goes, you go, end of.

It was a bit of a contention on my own part-one training/test back in 1988, when as a cocky fecker, I rode a Honda H100 with the adjuster wound all the way in to lock the front wheel, around a football pitch to give lie to the instructors aspersion that you 'cant' ride with a locked front wheel..... but that's an exception that proves the rule! Another one was on IAM evaluation probably a decade later, when I 'saved' a front end slide on the old Vee-Eff-Thou, which defied conventional wisdom of advanced riders and instructors, who all believed that you cannot 'save' a front end slide.....

99 times out of 100 though, the wisdom holds, and you cant save a front end slide, even the most experienced and most inordinately gifted riders wont and it's largely down to chance whether it can be puled back.

Newbie on L's, on a light-weight? Odds are REALLY not in your favour....

BUT, its looking at the ashes trying to find the wood...

Fact: You went down.
Supposition: and pretty strong, was that the front end 'went' on you.

The reasons for that are many, and a broken mudguard stay is NOT, I am afraid the chief candidate here.

Like I said... did you do all your CBT pre-Ride-Checks? and when was the last time you checked the tyre pressure?

If a tyre lets go.... then grip twixt rubber and tarmac MUST have exceeded the limit of traction....

'Budget' commuter 125's are renown for coming from the factory with pretty cheesy crap rubber, 'cos its cheap.... and ironically, on a lightweight that doesn't have the mass to 'load' the tyre and get frictional grip, they could better use 'sticky' rubber more than the big-bikes that usually get it.... but, that's more ask in the fire when your looking for the forest....

A couple of interesting 'asides' at this juncture.

Back in the late 80's/early 90's, when electronic F1 car style 'telemetry' was being pioneered on GP bikes, there was an interesting far-roar surrounding an anomaly between the promoter's radar-trap speed, and the team's on-board telemetry. I cant remember the track or rider, though DeHammel springs to mind, but the contention was between telemetry that put the bike at well over 200mph on the straight, and the Radar that put it under. OTMH I think that the discrepancy was about 6mph or 3%, and it was used to renounce the accuracy of the radar trap that was then becoming more prevalent on the public road; BUT, the conclusion of the debate was that the rider was leaning.... the 'straight' actually wasn't, and the rider was very slightly banked, turning it into a very wide sweeping curve, which put the contact patch on the inside of the front tyre, and a smaller radius than at the centre, hence the effectively smaller, front wheel was turning faster and the telemetry counting clicks 'thought' very accurately counted clicks per second, but, the RPM of the wheel was actually higher than the MPH of the bike, because of the smaller banked diameter.

Which is to say.... YOU might think you were going in a straight line.... but did the bike?

Skipping ahead a few decades, on a ride-out, I witnessed the same phenomena with a rider who ALWAYS leaned to the left. He actually grumbled about the bike tipping in more readily to left handers and having problems making it turn right, which is a slight anomaly, most riders naturally have a 'bias' for one direction or the other, but its 'usually' to favour right handers.... most often because here in the UK we drive on the left. so as we approach a 'faster' corner, where it tells, we tend to be far more 'comfortable' going right, than left, because we can see further around the bend, and we don't feel like we are leaning and pointing the bike at the hedge!

His gripe was that he thought that the bikes frame must be 'bent' or forks twisted, or or or.... and it took an awful lot of untangling of argument, before just actually watching him ride, and the fact he sat 'skew' in the saddle, found 'the problem'.....

Incidentally... it was 'solved' by taking the bike round the block, coming back, and standing on the stand-side to hand it back to him, to make him 'mount' from the 'wrong' side.... "Whatcha done to it! Its amazing!" was his conclusion after.... and it took ALMOST as much debate after that, to convince him, that I had done 'nothing' to the bike!!! I'd JUST got him to mount from the other side, and NOT sit so 'skew' in the saddle! Much muttering that i 'must' have diddled the suspension settings some-how ensued, but.....

On a bike, we very very seldom ride in a dead straight line, and even when we do, we seldom are sat bolt upright, perfectly balanced.

And on UK Corporation Macaddam? We are almost constantly adjusting 'attitude' to account for camber changes and pot-holes and other surface irregularities.

SO.... we have to add a least a little seasoning to your suggestion that you were riding in a dead straight line, at constant throttle, and the 'front' just went.... Its almost inconceivable.

So what DID go wrong?

Well, IME most accidents are not brought about by ONE nice neatly identified and addressed 'problem', but a clusterfuck!

Lets, stick the mudguard stay on the shelf. As said, from photo's I tend to concur with others, it is inordinately unlikely that the mudguard stay broke because of a manufacturing defect..... and caused your crash. It is FAR more likely that that is effect, not cause, and to fixate on it, is to follow the red-herring, and likely a road to no-where trying to convince the bike supplier that was the cause of crash.... where under warranty, they might, just for the sake of oiling the squeaky hinge, agree to fix under parts and labour, and leave you with scuffed hat and coat to deal with.....

So? That puts us back to square one. What went wrong, and in the balance of probability, YOU as unqualified, inexperienced and likely over-confident new rider, on an apparently sunny, but cold winder's day.... most likely simply effed-up!!

As said, we seldom right absolutely straight and level; and the roads are peculiarly dire; and this time of year, the apparently good light and weather can bolster confidence even more.

The odds IS, that you missed a probably subtle surface irregularity, and the bike 'shimmied' at the front.

Cheap economy rubber wont have helped. Lack of CBT pre-ride checks, aided and abetted some more.. but.... the bike likely shimmied on a road irregularity, then as inexperienced rider, you instinctively and probably sub-consciously 'panicked', and reacted perversely to aggravate the situation, that developed rather than recovered, and on light-weight bike, that is inherently 'nervous' and want to respond very much more quickly and much more significantly to any 'input' whether from the road or rider.... the propagation developed incredibly fast, to the extent you 'don't recall' what happened, and you went down....

Shit-Happens.....

Lessons that may be learned?

1/ its nearly ALWAYS a clusterfuck, never a nice neat single cause.

So think through ALL the possible contributors... dont look for just one you can easily pin blame on, that neatly absolves your conscious

2/ you is inexperienced, unqualified new rider!

Right at the top of the list of possibilities in this clusterfuck, THAT has to be one of the most significant. You cant do eff all about your lack of experience, right now, apart from hope you survive enough of these hard-knock lessons, to get some experience....

But, that will tend to be BAD experience you are building, not good.... which may have the effect of denting the over-confidence some and helping get confidence back in kilter with competence, which is likely a good thing.... but it tends to hurt!

You could, on the other hand STOP fannying about finding excuses NOT to go get lesons....

A1 vs RWYL 'A'?

You are on a 125 on L's... there is ABSOLUTELY no reason why you need do either... you COULD on your own (now bent!) 125, self book and go do the A1 tests. Full suite at last check was aprox £125, and if you are planning either A2 or RWYL'A', the cost of the theory, £35? is in there anyway.... so, about £90 to get a licence....

OR not....... and discover WHY you shouldn't be trying to fugging commute on L's! AND get told what you need to put that to rights and pass test, by the chap that has to sign the cert....

ONE YEAR! Pissing about on L's, trying to dodge tests, 'cos, "Ride Wot-Choo-Like Licence!!!!" Its another red-herring, leading you up the garden path.

LESSONS IS FOR LIFE! Not just Licences!

You fell off.... go get some learning, go get a licence!

Sod whether its a 'waste of money' to do A1 or A2 when what you want is the RWYL'A'.... its like sitting outrside McDonalds when you could go get a bag of chips, cos you really want a stake!

If 'cos of age, A1 seems demeaning, something 'just' for skootah-commutaz, and A2 a bit of a waste when for the same time and money you could wait it out and do RWYL'A'... well, pack up the lexmoto, stick it in the shed or on gum-tree and WAIT till you get old....

Alternatively, work with what you got here and now.

You have bike, you have insurance, you can 'legally' ride , and crash! On the road, on L-s. You CAN exploiting that, go do your A1, as said for under £100, and get a full licence and 'some' learning along the way.

Wont stop you crashing.... but should improve your odds of staying rubber side down!

More... IF you decide to go on, and you REALLY want to do the RWYL'A'... no reason you cant... and when you rock up for lessons, you will be turning up; with a FULL LICENCE in your pocket, not a provisional... and you will have done the tests once... and they are the exact same tests, only the bike is different! So the instructor shouldn't';t have to teach you to suck so many eggs, and they should be able to keep the training fairly 'skinny' and cheaper, and probably by more than the cost of the A1 tests, to get you up to par and familiar with heavier, more powerful DAS bike, and put that under your bum to go do the RWYL'A' tests....... So all 'win'.

MEANWHILE! A2.....

Oh Kay, so you dont get the licence that will let you jump on a 200mph turbo-Ninja-blade... would you anyway?

Most of the advantages are still there; and for starters, theres the training, so you 'hopefully; can learn by mistakes other folk have made and not have to co make them yourself, as you have done! Mistakes on 2-wheels tend to mean crashing, and crashing tends to mean pain!

So go do the lessons, and learn how to do stuff right, right at the start.... and get a licence for it!

45bhp is nowt to be sneezed at. In fact 12bhp isn't anything to be sneezed at, and I probably have more 'fun' on 12bvhp 125 than I do the big-bikes that for some reason beg I take them more seriously. 12bhp will get me to the national speed limit (SIXTY!) and beyond, to the elevated duel-cariageway or motorway limit.... and even a tad beyond that, or two-up.... and I have the GPS snail trials to prove it.... What it wont do is let me blitz past audi-cochs at tripple figure velocities... but that be daft, and illegal anyway!!! But.... 45bhp Guzzi would still let me play that game, if I wanted...

Now, for me, holding RWYL'A' entitlement longer than you have been alive, its a bit of a non issue. But, sat out-side are at least three bikes, one of each 'class' I, or one of my sprogs, could take tests on, for A1, A2 or RWYL'A'... and like I said, and cant stress enough THEY ARE THE SAME FUGGING TESTS!

For any of the kids, absolutely no reason they need wally about on 125 and L's... they could go get the A1 licence on it, IF they are good enough to be on it and live long enough to tell the tale.

Absolutely no reason that they should wally about on 125 and L-s 'killing time' and probably kittens, if not themselves, waiting to do RWYL'A'; they could go do A2... probably on her nibs bludi-guzzi, waving the Dyno-print and pointing at the throttle cable adjusters to 'prove' its been 'restricted' to A2 limits for test...

Important to YOU: However long later, and by accelerated access that cant be more than 2 years after, to turn A2 into RWYL'A' they do NOT need to fork out for another full course of DAS-training, ALL they need so is rock up for tests, on the same bike they passed them first time round, probably err-nibs-bludi-guzzi again, or possibly my CB-Seven-Fifty, and if needed wave another bit of paper around or wave a spanner in the direction of the carbs, to claim its 'De-Restricted' and full A eligible, to go do the exact same test, on the exact same bike, over, for, again, under £125 even if they have to 'repeat; the theory they would also have to have taken and passed once over.

There is ABSOLUYTLEY no real reason to wally about on L-Plates, killing kittens and time... none what-so-ever.

It does NOT save you any money in the long run, it likely costs you money. Both the big-bikes cost more to insure than the 125's, even for a full-licence holder with your age or more of 'experience' and no-claims history! And by more than the difference in the price of the tax. And the 125, thrashed mercilessly doesn't even save any petrol money very often! and that's before you count the possible cost of crashes of '#experience'.

ALL that sitting it out is doing, is pandering to 'Thee ORforities; that don't want to give you the full cake straight off the plate, but make you salivate a bit first.

Work through the ranks, you don't have to wait until some chap thinks you have salivated long enough and asked if you are still there, you can ditch the L's almost straight off the stops, and you might get onto something with a lot more poke and every-day real-world performance you COULD be enjoying for a year of more before.....

SO... lets stop trying to disseminate what went wrong here... you CRASHED!!! You don't need an autopsy of it. And you have enough excuses floating around, you REALLY dont need any more.

What you NEED is some learning, and a full-licence.

So?

A1 on your straightened out Lexmoto..... and either a clean bill of health that lets you ditch the L-s.,... OR some pointers what you are doing wrong, so you can go put them right.

A2... begs a course, and some extra learning, to yup odds of getting full licence..... more money too, but also likely less bad experience crashing to get it. Three times the permitted power and heck lot less frustration from it, as well as a year or4 more of big-bike 'fun' to be had, before the formality of getting RWYL'A', possibly on the exact same big-bike you have been riding over a year getting 'good' experience on, NOT crashing..... and in the doing potentially SAVING money on the training, on the insurance, along the way.

BUT that is where you should be looking.... getting the licence, NOT for more excuses to explain your crash, or dodge the licence any longer.

Go book a course, or just go book a test... stop telling us "Ah but I'm practising' for theory hazard, I'm practising for Mods.... GO DO THEM!

Fail tests.... you get a check-sheet that tells you exactly what you failed on, and cabn go put it right.... we dont get fuzzy-photos of broken metal, to try and guess at the causes from, let alone the cure....

Do you want to ride bikes?

Or do you want to spend your life finding excuses why you cant ride bikes?

Your call.
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[Ste]

Learner-Bikes and commuter-bikes, tend not to fare well in the hands of Learners and or commuters; who either don't know how to, or completely resent having to, more having to pay for, maintenance.

I was 27 when the ZX6R was launched, and failed to fall for its charms!
It was like the stunning blond in the bar... fantastic to look at, but not much of a conversationalist, who didn't cook, always complained she needed a new frock to go anywhere, and left you wondering whether she actually felt it after... with a nagging thought of how many had been there before, and whether a trip to the clinic might not be a bad idea!
Fat bottom girls, they make the rockin' world go round! As the man with the tash is famous for saying!

Car drivers have been taught for probably 20 years to keep the revs low and use tall gears, 'cos envomental'.. its actually not all that great a technique in a car and not necesserily any more economical... but its NOT the way to ride a motorbike... that doesn't have a relatively low rev ceiling and a broad spread of 'tractable' power, and an excess probably 8x what a little 125 might.. A-N-D a random-access gearbox you can change straight from fifth to first, with out having to go through forth, third and second along the way, with the air of syncro-mesh to line up the cogs and stop them grinding and craunching....

Very very common tendency for pre-existing car drivers to change up far too many gears at far too low a speed, and make the poor little engine labour at low revs where it has very little power.... wondering why the thing is loath to respond to the throttle, and convinced that the thing will blow up, if they use more than half revs....

Because they have sat in a box for umpety years, where the only clue the engine is even running is the rev-counter on the dash-board! And on a bike, the engine is not just exposed, but in very close proximity to thier testicular regions, and there's nothing to damp the noise....

SO... on balence of probability.... lets see....

We have you... on a hot day, an existing car driver, 'learning' to ride a motorbike, essentially on your first time on one, or first time for a very long time, on one!

We have a DSA qualified instructor, who has to get there, done a bit of riding, and some proper motorbike tests, and some more on top of them to become an instructor.... who likely rides every day, and has to deal with the school bikes, and students, every week-end...

Hmmmm... which way do you think the pendulum aught swing?

Put it like this: IF you don't trust the instructors judgement, WHY the heck are you only considering going to a different school for your own CBT? Surely if the bloke cant be trusted, you would want to take your son along for another one too, to make sure HE was properly clued up and trained, and not a danger to himself, even though he was given the ticket to ride? If you DO trust the instructors judgement HE can ride.... why don't you trust his judgement about the bike you had?

Most or prev post was written before you commented about the repeat. BTW.

Clutch 'out' vs Slip'n'Drag... for ME.. clutch out all the way. Do it on the throttle. I came up through schoolboy trials almost forty years ago; if you want a bike to go that slow, use a lower gear; if you don't have a lower gear.. fit a bigger sprocket.. if you have the clutch 'in' you don't have control, and trials is a control sport... so I am really not an advocate of deliberatey riding the clutch in slip'n'drag to go slow.

If you want to give an instructor apoplexy... when they try teaching slip'n'drag, and tell you its 'for control'... suggest then it muct be a great idea to pull in the clutch and 'coast' slowing down for junctions and stuff... which they will almost certainly tell you is a no-no and means you AREN'T in full control, because you don't have 'drive'..... Its a bit of hypocracy I rather enjoy....

Slip'n'Drag...... is the motorcycle equivalent of patting your head and rubbing your tummy.. it is NOT a great way to effect control, whether at slow speed or otherwise, as the argument against coasting to junctions etc. In trials and stunt, which is all about 'control' as said, IF they need bike to go that slow they use a lower gear, and or fiut bigger wheel-sprocket to lower the gearing to get one, so they can go that slow 'clutch out' and be in full control with driven wheels, not coasting, or burning out both clutch and brake pads.

I REALLY don't like or agree with it.. but, reason its on the menu is that that is how so many licence holders these days have been taught.

Its a legacy of Direct Access Training... tests are the same whether you do them on a 125 or a 500, but if you do the CBT/Mod 1 maneuvers on a bigger bike, clutch out, you will likely do them rather quick... and the instructor and examiner might have to break into a sweat to keep up with you..... cant have that can we, most un-cool!

It's a cheap trick to 'under-drive' the gear box and make the bike go slower than gearing allows; but also gets the revs up above the low down lumpiness where trying to trickle at little more than tick-over they get a bit snatchy and the chain starts jerking and stuff, and they threaten to stall.... getting the revs up gets you over that lumpy-zone, and holding it back on the brake means you wont so likely run out of gap to make bike turn between cones so quick, as you will also likely be loath to lean it, and try doing all your turning on the handlebars, and wrestling with the thing.

It then gives an examiner a demonstration, like patting head and rubbing tummy of 'control co-ordination' juggling three competing controls, clutch, brake and throttle, when you SHOULD only need the one, the throttle.. nice to do... but being able to pat head and rub tummy wont stop a gymnast falling of a volting horse!

So it is a peculiarly academic exercise, for test, that has been so ingrained as the way to do it, via DAS training, these days it's rarely even questioned as whether or not its the 'best' way of doing anything, let alone tackling slow-speed maneuvers.

And it is interesting, that it has been promoted by DAS significantly because, on DAS a student expect instant results, and its very disheartening to constantly fail to ride it clean and move on, or nagging a student not riding it clean, just on the throttle; when on DAS you are paying a lot of money to some-one essentially just to watch you wobble, on a big bike, unlike going it alone DIY on a 125 when you dont 'need' to drag'n'slip to start with, as the bikes are geared that much lower because of the small power they can have, and you can practice to your hearts content, on your own time, not paying any-one to yell at you.

BUT.... it is something now taught almost from the Go-Get, even on tiddlers you don't need do it on, because it is something that is expected you will have to do 'on test' especially on a DAS bike.

Still don't mean that its the best way about it though.... which it aint!

Hence the apoplexy and hypocracy if you try use suggestion if its good for slow speed control, coasting must be good for slowing for junctions! Lol.

Do it by all means, in fact if you intend to do DAS learn it and habitualise it, but remember it is NOT the best way to tackle slow speed manouvers, its not giving you control, it is actually abdicating control and making life hard for yourself juggling three controls when one is all you need, and you probably have other fish to fry, and it is a patting head and rubbing tummy accademic excersise for test, you probably never have good reason to use in the real world on the road.

Apply to your questions as you deem fit. I would ride it clutch out all the way on a 125 for CBT, and I would suggest same to others; they just aren't that fast, and max one out in first year you will be lucky to go much more than 20mph, anyway; I would also advocate leaning the bike to make it turn on the tough stuff like slalom and figure 8, and of needed 'counter-leaning', leaning upper body the 'other' way to the way you lean the bike, to hold balence better....

That one is also a bit contentious.... in trials we don't sit on the seat... not that there is much of one... we stand on the pegs and do it all 'feet up' leaning bike which ever way we need between our legs... this is NOT appreciated much on CBT or mod 1..... the authorities still believe... errantly, not ONLY do you need to have your bum on the seat, to be 'in full control' you have to have BOTH tyres on the floor as well! lol.

I actually failed my 'Part 1' thirty years ago, doing the slalom trials style, on the back wheel, feet up! The instructor/examiner said, "You want to take the proverbial? Two can play at that game... that was a fantastic display of riding control... that just got you FAILED" lol! And she was NOT a woman who looked like she was to be argued with!

However... slower corners, rather than slalom or 8's; yes, I would do it all on the throttle, and not make life hard for myself; and again, LEAN to turn; all too easy to slow down far to much for what is a rather mild corner, and not have any momentum to carry you through it on the throttle.... most STILL if you are loath to let the engine rev out, and are trying to do a circuit of the CBT course in 3rd gear or more, and trying to clunk down cogs as well, and slow and steer all at the same time.....

They'll probably expect you to change up to 2nd once moving to show a nice smooth controlled change, but after than, no need go up another, or clunk it down to 1st again to go around a corner... let it rev and use the throttle.. it wont go 'bang'... well, it SHOULDN'T go bang.... probably... who cares! Schools bike! Lol.

Our Snowie, My O/H, did her last CBT and tests on a CB125 Super-Dream; that little twin cylinder engine is lovely and smooth for the slow speed stuff, and it revs to 14K!! Audaciouse.... I am still trying to work out exactly what unthinkable revs she must have been pulling when she tripped the Mod 1 speed trap, which was before they lowered it, and I think she had to better 32mph.... and she did! In FIRST GEAR! She missed her change to second going into the loop, and thought she was in 2nd as she came out... and I watched... with pained expression... and examiner moved his clipboard to cover his head from shrapnel, as she dipped her head, adopted a dog-fight grimace and nailed the poor little thing, in a shitorbust shot at the trap! That ended with a rather loud clattering... we quickly discovered was a tappet bouncing around the rocker cover! She actually 'passed' too!

So yeah, be smooth, be confident, dont over slow for the corner, or for the cones on slalom of 8, its a slo-speed excersise not a NO speed excersise! And on a 125 that will do up to 20 in 1st, let it rev, and use the throttle, and unless you want to pat your head and rub your tummy, do it all clutch out...

On CBT its not a test, and 125 shouldn't go 'that' fast. On Mod1, its still NOT absolutely essential... you should be able to ride it clean 'clutch out' still, and you shouldn't be penalized to going too fast, as long as you aren't taking the proverbial, BUT, examiner will likely expect to see 'drag'n'slip, so look for other reasons for fail even if you dont clip a cone; it is a technique, you probably want to learn so you can demonstrate on test... but beyond that? NOT something you need use, and not something that's as suggested, a great way to tackle slow speed maneuvers.

Helpful hints in there is use revs not gears; dont be scared to rev the little fecker; dont be afraid to tilt to turn; and if you need to bend at the wast to counter lean a little to let the thing lean and keep your balance; DONT fight the bike, or let it 'chugg' round turns; use revs, use throttle, use lean. Its a motorbike, it needs a bit of speed to stop it falling over, don't be afraid of using some, or letting it lean.

Remember there is slow, and there's stopped. And its slow speed maneuvers NOT stopped maneuvers! Possible to trickle a 125 along at walking pace without slipping the clutch; possible to trickle a big bike along almost that slow, without using the clutch quite often; and I can ride my old 750 which is not low geared for trials or off road or hauling its over-weight arse along, down to a brisk walking pace, clutch out, maybe 5-6mph, so even on a bigger bike there shouldn't be too much need to slip'n'drag... except to show an examiner, on test... you can! And CBT aint a test, remember....

I assume you are practicing on your own bike, therefore 125.

Modern teaching for slow-speed maneuvers including U-Turn, I HATE, but involved drag and slip... using higher revs on the throttle, slipping the clutch to under-drive the gearbox, and holding bike back on the back brake..... HOW would you hold back on the back brake, if your foot isn't on the right hand peg?

Correctly seated.... at all times... or a fail (depending how harsh man with clip-board be)

SO whether fail or not, its NOT good form, dont teach yourself to do it or try get away with it.

HEAD UP, where you look is where you go.

Tricks....

Dont start your turn too early......

Biggest fail with U-Turn is you look where you want to go.... and bike goes there.... so you drift towards the center of your road, before you start, then start running out of road, and trying to tighten the turn the whole while.... fixate on the fact you are running out of road, look at the kerb... and go even wider! Hover foot, and bang down, to stop toppling.

JINK LEFT, to go RIGHT!

Sounds stupid, BUT... before starting your turn, look the WRONG way, check full width of space you have, and when you start the turn, jink LEFT first to get the bike over as far as you can and give yourself most width to do the 'U' which, if you do it right, should be more of a bell-flask shape.

Now, you have made that jink, the 'flick' to the right should give you full room for your turn, and turning to the left, will mean that the turn to the right, comes more naturally as a progression of straightening up from the quick left at the start, the bike will just carry on tilting through the upright as you turn to the right, and bring you into the right hand turn, with most space, and most steer already done, so you have most room, and less steering to do the other half of the turn.

DONT fixate, on the space you have, look where you want to go, and almost as soon as you have tipped in to right hand turn, DONT look where you are, or where you are going, look where you WANT TO BE... as you look over your shoulder to the right, your shoulders will twist that way, your arms will pull bars that way, you will GO that way, and you will complete the turn almost without any conciouse thought.

KEEP FEET ON THE PEGS!

Even if you dont use drag and slip, makes it look like you could.... if little else, but foot is over back brake....

Yeah.... bang down the boot... fantastic, bike dont fall over.... instead you clubber the back of your shin with the ruddy footpeg.. you are STILL as want to go over and down.... but bike will still be moving! So what do you do? Grab the front! Now front locks, back caries on moving, forks twist and you go down in a tangle and it gets messy! So JUST dont do it!

Keep your feet on the pegs!

Bike will go round, and IF you run out of road, DONT PANIC.... use back brake; make safe stop, and shove bike back-wards and do a 3-point rather than a U... OK wont pass you a bike test.... but wont cost you a new mirror and brake lever either!

contentious trick... COUNTER LEAN..... bikes tilt-to-turn.... roll a tuppence down a table, as it starts to tip, it starts to turn, more it tips tighter the turn it makes...... this is how bikes steer too.

More bar-steer you use to make a turn, the more upright you hold the bike, the more disadvantageous the geometry, as the steering wants to 'self center' and straighten up.

Going slow, you will be loath to lean the bike, for fear of falling over; feels you dont have the speed to hold bike up... so tendency is to try hold bike more upright, and turn bars more.

BUT, do that, and you have to turn bars more, more the bike will 'fight' you trying to straighten that bar steer, and so you get into a cycle, of trying to turn the bars more and more, and hold bike upright, and you dont turn, you run out of road, and end up in a tangle on the floor.

Rules say you should keep your arse in the saddle..... I know... this was how I failed my 'part one' test, thirty years ago.....*... but you DONT have to shift your bum of the saddle to lean the wrong way... you have a waste... you can tilt your upper body from above it.... As you do so.... first bike will lean beneath you and turn tighter... second you will, leaning upper body to the left, naturally push on left bar, pull on right and tighten the bar steer... Take note... folk trying this for the first time, will make a MUCH tighter turn than they expect, and panick, trying to compensate...... be warned.

Its a completely DIFFERENT way of tackling a U-Turn, so as Yoda "Unlearn you must", get the old way out your brain, and practice, practice, practice, NOT doing it badly.

- Jink to the left, make room
- Hinge from the waste, LEAN the bike
- LOOK where you want to be

Whole maneuver will fall naturally into sequence, bike will turn very very tightly, and with a LOT less effort than trying to hold it bolt upright and do it all on the bars, and it WONT fall over.. it will go round, and sweetly, with feet on the pegs, covering back brake either to use Drag'n'(effing!)Slip, if expected, or not.... BUT without hanging a boot, which even IF examiner doesn't give insta-fail for on grounds you are not correctly seated or in full control, WILL display lack of confidence, and incline them to a fail there or elsewhere on test.

LAST thing, 99% of riding a bike is in the throttle. Not turning the bars, not leaning, not using the brakes, its all in the right wrist.

Get up some speed BEFORE you try and maneuver; gets you balanced; roll off, and jink left and reverse to right, the rolling off will de-settle the bike to help you steer, you aren't fighting it from the off; as you have tipped into the U, get on the throttle.... GENTLY... use the throttle to drive you round rather than coast; seems counter intuitive to a slow speed maneuver, but its making the bike work for you rather than against; as you pass the mid point, you can use more throttle, this will naturally make the bike both drive round the U, and try and sit up, you WONT have anywhere near the sensation of 'toppling' that makes you want to hang a boot, and it will make the bike go stable, and go round, not drift wide.

Its all on the throttle; exploit it**.

** Slow-Speed lean anecdote: I absolutely scared the hell out of a forum member here a few years ago, taking him round a Car-Park, pillion, scraping the foot-pegs of a 125 doing 'slow-speed' CBT/Mod 1 manouvers, like this, on the throttle, and leaning the bike.

It is incredible just how slow you can go, and how far you can lean, with just a little balence, even with a scared shitless lump wobbling about on the bunny convinced you are going to topple, trying to lean the other way....

Find a car park, and try it, (Without the pillion, is probably best for starters Laughing ) practice it, learn how far you CAN lean a bike, and just how slow IF you do it on the throttle.

Most of your reason for hanging a boot is purely lack of confidence, NOT believing that the bike will stay up; and trying to 'practice' the things you are doing, 'wrong' to pander to that sensation, will only ingrain them; so go unlearn, learn how far you can lean and how slow you can do it, to get past that inhibitor trhat is making you do it wrong or badly, to re-train your brain to do it right, and get the confidence to do it right, and NOT have any question marks hanging over test.

* Bum in Saddle anecdote; I took tests before the split Mods. We didn't have CBT either, we could wobble out on the road with no more than filling a form at the post office.... which was something of an aptitude test in itself back then! But still.

Before booking a motorcycle test, we had to pass the 'Part 1' which was sort of like a 'tested' CBT, that included things like the slalom and U-Turn.

I had been doing school boy trials for some time, and the 'school' I did my part 1 with, shared a bit of the old BSA factory, where Vale-Onslow has set up a sort of motorbike youth club and trials course, to keep kids from hacking nicked bikes down the canal.... it was right by the canal, and most of the bikes, I discovered were nicked! but donated to the club by West-Mids police, when they couldn't find the owners! Laughing

But, having done trials there, seemed a good idea, after much trecking around the county looking for motorbikes on Sunday mornings in Woolies car-parks and other obscure places for one of these mythical 'Part One' schools.... like I said, was more an aptitude test than a motorcycle one, in them days! Seemed a good idea to use this place next door to the trials park; not least 'cos they hired Honda H100's to do it on... and I figured I could save buying a 125 testing on their school bikes, and then riding one of my 250's on the road.

Honda H100's have a peculiarly small frame... I am a lanky git, at 6'2"ish.. I dont have a particularly dainty frame... trying to do the manouvers on a H100 was then something of a double challenge, I couldn't turn the bars more than a few degrees without my knees getting in the way... even if I slid back on the saddle to the pillion seat.... there was some muttering when I eventually passed about my 'unorthodox' riding position, and whether, after giving up, and doing the cone-slalom, trials style, stoof on the pegs, on the back-wheel, lust sort of dropping the front between each pair.... and told, patiently "You are NOT supposed to be in full control if your arse isn't in the saddle.... and BOTH Effing tyres are on the effing FLOOR!" Lol. When the on the last attempt, slid all the way back onto the pillion, with barely my ballsack over the pillion seat and the tail lamp trying to give me an enema, whether this 'counted' as having my bum on the saddle! I did keep effing tyres on effing floor, BTW... for some reason they really likes that, and wouldn't yeild on the point!

ANYWAY... remember bikes is built to tilt, and they tilt to turn, and 99% of riding one is in the throttle. Stop practicing doing it at best, badly, at worst 'wrong', go practice doing it RIGHT, and use tips provided to do that a bit better, if you want to.

No, it does NOT make more sense to start effing with the suspension before you 'get settled in to it'... not having ridden anything before, let alone the bike in standard form, how the heck will you have the first clue, whether what you have changed has made it better or worse, or if its just you, the way you are riding the thing.

First; Rushing is a fast way to hurt when it comes to motorbikes.... slow down, take it easy!
Next; Keep-It-Simple-Silly... ONE thing at a time.

The clasic Cafe, you suggest as inspiration, is the Triton; Norton fetherbed frame and road-holder forks for handling; Triumph bonaville, twin-carb engine for power and speed; detail to suit tast with bum-stop (plank!) saddle; large beaten aluminium petrol tank, rear-set foot-pegs, clip-on handle-bars for a crick in the neck, and almost everywhere else tbh...

GN125/250.. for a Cafe-Racer?!?!? It's a ruddy cruiser! (ish).. more accurately its a latre 70's contrived 'Factory custom' a reletively conventional commuter bike, with token cruisery features like forward set highway pegs, pull-back handlebars, short rear shocks, long front forks and a step-seat...

It IS rather like starting with a Cadilac and saying you want to turn it into a Ferarri... it's just such a step in the opposite direction, as to really not be a particularly viable place to start.

Dont stop people... they have wire wheels, which gets them all exited, and off they go to make shitting-frog riding posiution Cafe-Brat-Chop-Scramblers that feature all manner of influences of classic and custom design... and rarely achieve much but looking like you should be rat talking about the merits of Remington type writers over an Apple mac in a Starbucks! But still...

Click profile; and you will find a few links to tiddler projects that I have done; pretty much straight renovations; 'to the book'.. this keeps things simple; you aren't trying to re-invent the wheel, just follow trhe air-fix model instructions to glue tab a to flap b etc.

Now... think long and hard on this; I am a mechanical engineer; I used to earn my crust developing missile guidance systems for the militery... I do this sort of chit for fun, and have a very long record of doing projects, and completing them... which is quite rare... about 1 in 10 motorbike projects ever come close to being 'done' less pass an MOT, even less still get regularly used, as even thier creators find them unreliable and or uncomfortable, and rapidly wheel them back in the shed to fix the stuff they didn't do or did wrong or really wasn't such a great idea when they were getting all exited about 'making it a bobber!'...

Be warned... you do not, buy a junk motorbike, wheel it in the shed on Friday; order a credit card limit load of bits from a magazine or brochure or e-bay... and just wack them together over a bank-holiday week-end!

And doing one 'here and there, as and when'... sorry, but thats a plan NOT to do anything from the off.

When you start a project, you need to be pretty clear what you are about, and how you are going to do it, and disciplined to stick fairly close to your principles for the project, and THEN you need the number one ingredient, which is project momentum... you HAVE to keep it going or it stops, and that's it.. it never gets going again.

Doing a project by installement, really is a bad idea; because every time you stop... its that much harder to get it going again; especially if it isn't going well, and or doesn't feel like it's going anywhere. Which, when it comes to it, and you get down to the nitty gritty, and its all cleaning and sanding and sorting and faffing with wires, and finding the little problems, it feels like its sapping all your energy and you dont have anything to show for it, it can be very hard to carry on even if you dont stop!

Add in the stop-start load of working out where you got to last time, what you should be doing this time, sorting out and tidying up to get on with a job, and sorting out and tidying up after... you can spend a lot of time doing stuff and not making progress or getting the job shifting, and more 'drag' to momentum.

Doing a straight renovation, not being overly fancy about it, but doing it to a reasonable standard, I reckon on around 300 man hours... hands on.. thats about six or seven full working weeks, nine to five, or every weekend for a full year... not a couple of weekends and a week off work! and that's for a straight renovation, to the book, no trial and error make ity up as you go along ideas to be incorporated.

See why so many projects get started and so few finished?

So... Keep it Simple Jeep it STANDARD, at least for a first project!

You need a licence... split that out; work on that as ONE project.

You want a cafe racer... ponder that a second project... and the notion that its almost always cheaper and easier to buy a straight standard bike that needs no work doing to it, than one that needs work, more needs more work still to turn into something its not to start with.

As said the quintessential Cafe is a Triton. This is a pretty well known quantity and depsite possible variation pretty well known.

But, if you want to find out of you can live with such a beast, first start with a few months on something a little more contemprary that is easy to ride and easy to live with. Then perhaps try living with an old Meriden Bonny, in standard form, and see how you get on with the idiocyncracies of right foot down for up gear-change and adusting cable operated twin-leading-shoe drum brakes... as well as stopping with them on old ribbed cross-ply tyres... you probably will have very different opinions of a Triton if you do... and however much you love the look... probably not have the enthusiasm to try use one for more than a garage trophy or very short outings!

And that;'s off the shelf... doing your own 'custom' project, as a learner never having done it before, not having a licence or knowing what riding a regular bike is like.... the ambition here is enormouse.

Slow down, one thing at a time, and lower the ambition and expectation levels a little.

Start JUST with getting the licence... that's enough to be getting on with.

I've never driven a Charger, though I did do my driving lessons in a front wheel drive Chryler with an iron six pot
My trans-atlantic summer ride of the era was a '79 Transam Six-Six, Tex-Spec sans emmissions, owned by an alcoholic oil-man who kept loosing his licence!

Chucking it about a bit along the mountain roads up in the Rockies, I DID have to seriously question the Brit opinion of Muscle-Car 'Handling'.. it wasn't that bad.. Really, no REALLY, it wasn't that bad!
It only got sort of way-wood when you unloosed the torque, and thanks to an LSD smoked both big sticky-micky's at the back, filled the window louvers with smoke, and ended up pointing in almost any direction than where you steered!

First time I opened it up; was when I had to take its alchoholic owner home; there was one of those old Volvo P things the Saint used to drive when he was Roger more? At a set of traffic lights; I was told to pull into the wrong lane along side by owner.. who then said "Err.. you need to be infront of him at the next intersection.... JUST floor eet!" I looked at the guages in the cockpit console.. looked suspiciousely at the owner, looked in the rear-view, and tried to see past the Volvo.. and not look too unbelieving "Dont worry!" He said "There's forty inches of rubber back theyur..." {Err... yeah, he was English but had spent fifteen years in the patch, most of it in texas... curiouse accent!} "It aint gonna spin up!.. TRUST ME!".... you know the Jewish for effoff?!?!?! But, I trusted him.... Volvo bogged off into the distance; I thought the thing had blown a gasket the amount of smoke in the back window, and wondered why I was pointing 45 degrees to the road, and hadn't seemed to have moved forwards.. so I backed off and the effin thing leapt fowards like a scolded cat!!! "I lied!" Said alchie owner! "Now y'know wh'ie I down hav' u liy-sance!"

And I owned a Honda Civic for half a decade..... cooking model 1.4 Auto... it did handle quite well... but?! [shrug]

Not so sure on how much it would cost to make a base model Civic get 440 Hemi 1/4 mile times.. probably less than a 440 Charger, I guess... but still. A 440 Charger would drop the quarter in under 14.... About as quick as a Type-R Civic... so they are starting pretty equal, but there aint no replacement for displacement.... and with 7.2l up-front the Hemi, is 4x ahead when it comes to chucking in lumpy cams and stuff, for any extra.

But the closer analogy here, for trying to Cafe Racer a Suzuki GN, I think would be taking a Chrysler PT Cruiser and trying to make it look like a Lotus 7!!!

Most of them... is short answer.

There are folks on here that have been riding forty or more years,and are still alive and in one piece... a motor bike licence is not an express ticket to the Critical Care wing of local blood suckers.

Maxim to remember is "Safety is IN your head, not what you put ON it"

You cannot buy safety, only think it. Common sense, hazard awareness, and a keen sense of your own mortality, not crash hats leathers, hi~vis and airbag underwear!

Your observation that in crash clips, the biker almost always put themselves in a possition a crash could happen, and could have done 'something' is an acute one... in almost all crash scenarios they could... Cant say that every accident is avoidable, though, but, in an awful lot a lot could have been helped.

Old addage is to ride like they are ALL out to get you..... is I think unfair if not unreasonable.

Standards of driving are on the whole pretty dire, but I dont think there are all that many car drivers that want to kill bikers... except perhaps Jeramy Clarkson....

They are, simply more concerned with thier little hermetically sealed world inside a box, and not so clued up on what's going on outside it; many dont drive thier own roads, subliminally they take thier queue from what the car imedietly infront is doing, and they brake when its brake lights come on, not when they have seen a corner coming....

This is actually so engrained, that I do wonder how many people follow other cars down off ramps at motorways, or round one way systems, playing follow my leader rather than actually driving for themselves.... Roger... can you find any stats on that?

Tendency to tailgate.... is another endemic issue; stand on a pavememt or grass verge somewhere and try count the gaps between cars and how many are anywhere near near the two second rule.... i doubt it will be many, and on a busy by pass or motorway, it is almost impossible to hold.... try it in a car! You leave a 2 second gap, and someone will jump into it, pretty quick!!!

For bikes, this is a problem new bikers will face, because not only will other traffic be inclined to tailgate them, on a bike, they will be watching the riders back... and not in the good way..... because its the largest and most recognisable 'plane' in thier vision. That shortens thier following distance by however much bike there is behind riders bum, for starters, then the gap they do leave, wont be as big as it should.... and new rider... now most used to driving a car before getting on a bike, sees the following car in thier mirrors, and the perspective is even more compressed because the mirrors are close to thier face, the angle higher, and they too, look not at 'car' in the mirror, but at the following drivers face.... which shrinks the gap by the length of car infront of the steering wheel, and it seems to the rider that the following car is even closer than it is.... and sense of vulnerability, lack of metal around them, tarmac in view beneath feet, magnifies more the 'feeling' that they are in danger, more that following driver is the one piutting them in it.

THEN... rider, (and many car drivers too} are intimidated by close following car..... Natural Hard Wiring of our brain, is that we DO NOT like things following us.... it's probably a T~Rex or a lion or something that wants to eat us..... so we tend to over inflate the danger of something behind... we cant see it so well, and it must be a predator...

And we can do daft things in the fight or flee reaction we naturally have to it.... and we start letting THAT obviouse and known danger of a close following car start influencing our actions more greatly than.... oh the traffic lights we are coming up to?!? diverting attension to them, and magnifying the percieved hazard even more, rather than thinking "OK, I have idiot behind, there's always an idiot behind... spotted this one... SO where are all the OTHERS? and wathcing out for the UNSEEN hazards that are likely a LOT more of one, especially if we are paying undue attention to one we have already spotted and are fixating over.

And you hear it a lot; "Well it was a 6o mph road, and I had this people carrier up my ass.. so I tried to go qo quicker to make some space between us..." {Particularly from folk riding 125's, esp chinky 125's that often wont go 6o}

THAT is the point that you are letting the OTHER DRIVER make YOUR decissions.... and if someone else if making them, they are in control, not you.... and that means long long before you might crash, you are OUT of control... you are not riding, you are letting someone else do your driving.... and they ent the one likely to get hurt by it.

Very hard to deal with... and theres no right or wrong answer; in that sort of scenario, the first thing is to recognise it, and just NOT let them influence what you do.... ride your own road, stuff~em.... "Yah but! they started weaving, and trying to get past, and REALLY riding on my number plate!!!"

Yes you can easily antagonise other drivers.... B~U~T key is recognising Not~My~Problem... and not making other drivers problems YOURS. which probably is the tricky bit....

But starts, staying in control, and that means before all else SELF control, not letting the red~mist rule, riding for frills, or being over cautious, riding like a granny, or letting other traffic unduly influence your thinking. think for yourself.... stay in control... SELF control.. ah Wax~hon, Wax~hoff, young gwass~hoppa....sort of stuff.

Both when dealing with the legion numpties already on our roads, but, also keeping the devil on your shoulder in check....

Big bit of the stats, IS made up by bikes, and a large chunk of those by the fact that biking attracts thrill seekers, and more these days, week~end warrior types, riding 'for fun' in thier leisure time, probably with another way to get to work, a lot of the natural inhibitors they might have to being soooo daft aleviated, and actively LOOKING for that adrenaline surge, on a bike, on public road.... so no wonder they have 'accidents' really.

But, keep that devil in check, keep your cool, ride your own road, no reason you should help them add to the stats really....

NO, it may not be 'fun'.... but then neither is fixing bent bikes, or getting them home, or peeling clingfilm off roadrash and leg hairs that grow under the glue, every other day down the clinnic..... Now WHY should THAT one spring so readily to mind?

So, yeah.... YOUR safety on a bike, IS so much down to you... and it IS possible to have a long and healthy riding carreer without too much incident... I you use your head, and dont just stick it in a plastic pot and think you have the matter covered. you keep your cool, you stay in control, you let neither the devil egg you on, or the angel make you paranoid, and you DO NOT let other people, in cars, or on forums, or anywhere else ride your bike for you.

Biggest danger on the roads.... is YOU.... do what you will with that nugget of notion.

First fail, right there, before you have even got on the bike, you are letting other people make your riding decissions for you, not applying self control......

If you want a big bike, fair play... but do it because you want to, not because someone else does......

Plus, is it the 125 or an L~plate that's the issue here?

Many full licence holders ride learner legals for variouse reasons; for me the 'fun' in them is actually thier lack of performance, and a lot more than the shear excess of bigger bikes... for other's its the cheaps they can offer, for more, the simple fact that they dont beg being taken so seriousely.

Ridicule of little bikes is a predjudice that says more of the aspirations of the ridiculer and thier narrow horizons than it does of tiddler rider... 125's can go as fast as anything else is legally allowed on UK roads and break just as many speed limits and road laws, whilst facing just the same number of idiots and other road hazards, and without the comfort zone of mass to make bike more stable and less want to step out from under you whilst you do it.....

To which, I, personally, have to say I am far more swayed to Trevors line of the fence...

Danger of Road-Craft has ALWAYS been in the 'interpretation'... and when I read it ooooh... decades ago, get out clause was actually given in the preface, where it actually said "This guide has been written to offer a 'procedural way to ride a motorbike; but riding a motorbike is an intuative process not a mechanical one; the techgniques offered are only tools you need to decide whether to use or not" (or words to effect)

OFF-SIDING.... is nice contentiouse example; it is something that has gone in and out of fashion, and is only now decried cos of a couple of coppas killing themselves using the technique badly.

When I started riding, lots and lots of roads didn't have a white line down the middle; I was taught, from the off, "You have paid your road tax, so use the WHOLE road you got!" Off-siding was not merely center edging, it WAS riding on the wrong side of the road to get your sight line...

When they started putting white lines down the middle of more narrower roads; opinion remained; you have paid your road tax, no law says you cant cross the middle or ride on the wrong side of the road... just not croass a double white... so if it aint double white... you can STILL use the whiole width of the road you have paid your road tax to use, IF you want to, and think it useful.

Fashion and opinion, has, in the last twenty five years vascilated on the matter.... BUT, the law remains, its not illegal to ride on the wrong side of the road, or cross a non solid white line; road tax is still paid, IF a rider thinks it useful, they are within rights to off-side, and to the extreme.

Place I most often do it, YES I still employ that 'tool'... and kerbing to the far off-side, not hugging the middle, is about eight miles away.

Intreguing notion; road has not been altered in the last thirty years; only change is that they have stuck a white line down the middle.... what worked twenty tears ago, still works... only difference is that what was considered 'good form' two decades ago, now isn't.

But to elaborate; uphill stretch of barely duel-track (more than 4m?) wide B-Road; sweeping right hander about half way up steepening 1/2 mile stretch, as it gets steeper, then dog legs sharply to the left, before passing a row of terranced cottages, opposite a pub.

There is now I think a speed limit change, 30mph between cottages and pub, that wasn't there umpety years ago.... BUT speed is NOT the vital topic here.

As Kev suggests, more a case of employing the technique to use excess and inapropriate speed.... Oh! Yeah, them tools and how you CHOOSE to use them, as warned in the preface!

Let me take you trough that stretch on the Seven-Fifty and the old LWB Desiesil Land-Rover;

You come accross a junction, which is now all within a new 30 speed limit zone... but you roll on as you aproach the bottom of the hill... so you can get up the dang thing.... particularly in the old Landy, or half way up you would have had to change down so many gears and still flat out... at barely 20mph, you'd be wondering if you could get all the way up without using 'low-box'!!! So you use the lower portion of the hill to put on some momentum to carry you up the hill... and you REALY dont want to waste any of that braking for the ruddy bends!

As you aproach the end of the swooping left; road brifly straightens, and flattens a little, so you can trail the throttle a tad, and 'hang' to the right, simply not straightening up so fast...

This then gives you a sight line through the jink, a good 200 yeards earlier, and if you kerb to the right you can see right throgh the 'jink' and have those too yards of space to do 'something' if there's a car pulling out the pub car-park, or coming down past the cottages....

It makes 'space' and gives you a sight line, you just dont have if you hugged the left of lane.

If 'clear' you can now let momentum carry you up and through the jink, which in the old Landy mkeans you dont have to actually 'stop' and start crunching cogs trying to get it into low-box! On the Seven-Fifty, means you DONT have to haul it up on its nose, and risk locking up on the cow slurry oozing out of the farm gate-way just before the ruddy pub!

You can take a 'Smooth' line from your right hand kerb positioning, without excessive braking or excessive acceleration, or on the old VF-Thou, excessive 'lean'...

BUT you have made space, made room, and made time to react to anything the extra line of sight has offered you.....

You MAY choose to use that to carry more speed through the Jink.... and you might even ramp the speed, and use the braking and acceleration and lean you have saved to go faster, and use more of all.... THAT is YOUR choice... and ones over and above the one to off-side or not... these techniques are just tools remember....

SMOOTH is SAFE is SWIFT....

Get the smooth... use the sight lines, up to you to choose whether to use it for more 'safe' or more 'swift' or bit of either.... BUT, Off-Siding is tool that 'can' give you that bit of extra smooth to have that choice...

And, as the old Land-Rover... its the difference between coming to a full stop and getting an AudiEnema as you waggle forrest of levers to find a gear low enough to get moving again... and probably pull a BMW stuck on the Bates-Hitch at the back, up the hill with you; or as the bike, having a moment when the front steps out, on cow slurry or dropped deisel, as you brake and lean trying to hug the 'approved' line on the left.

Road-Craft, is a procedural manual, and riding a motorbike is NOT a procedural art... Road Craft does NOT have all the answers to every situation, and doesn't even pretend to try.. and there are a LOT of tools in that tool-box, that are, very very questionable....

The Cardington Clogdance for instance...... now THAT dont make much sense.....

Why come to a halt at a T-Junction, laft foot down, right covering brake; reverse the safety position, to select neutral, re-adopt safety position to wait cross traffic, reverse safety to re-engage first, THEN do observations to pull accross the T... CLUNKY very very clunky...

What sense is there in that! Makes far more to haul up a little early, boot 1st whilst still moving, and keep it feet up using space to 'just' keep moving and if you have to stop 'track-stand' the thing untuil you can go again... or at least thats what I do Lol! (No feet down, no op to mis-foot!)

That asside, I know why its there; and it does make 'some' sense, though may take trying to weave a bludi guzzi through stop-start traffic and left hand going numb trying to feather and hold a paddle type car clutch.. "AH! Yes Bee-Emm-DoubleYou!" Makes PERFECT sense now! (Do Pan-Clan-Plod still do this I wonder?)

First compiled when beat bobbies were given Velocette LE's and 'Traffic' got Triumph Saints, with cork type dry clutches..... you can see where this bit of dogma came from...

But, in my riding career, it has been engrained as 'legacy' and most of the folk that have used it as 'habbit' have done so either because it IS just habbit, or to show the 'discipline' and total adherance to 'the book', more than because its in any way 'best practice' let alone even 'an' less still 'the' most apropriate way of dealing with the situation....

YET... Road-Craft still 'makes sense'!!!!! IF you bother to read it all, and IF you have observed the get out in the preface, that its 'procedures' ARE just tools, and you DONT have to use any of them, or exactly as procedurally described, A-N-D as book (at least used to) try and explain... USE YOUR HEAD, and decide what is 'best' for you to do in any situation, on any road, in any whether.

THERE in lies the danger of what is, a very procedural 'hgow to ride' manual.... its not in the book, its in the people who's hands its in, and leading horses to water.

There is NO prescription fop 'good riding', and safety is IN your head not what you put ON your head.

Meanwhile.... thread has departed enormously from where it started, and question whether we have as much influence over safety as we are lead NOT to believe, and we are all an accident waiting to happen... to which answer remains... yes, we ARE all accidents looking for some-where to happen... the amount of influence we have is not huge, but it IS there, and with a bit of cocum we CAN do a heck of a lot to NOT crash..... BUT remains in our THINKING, not in something we read in a book...

Oh gawd.. white lines, to cross or not to cross that is the question Mr Nelson!

I had err bludi-guzzi do a nice tank-slapping weave on me a while back on a center chevron! All depends how many times they have been re-painted I suppose.... even so, still less bumpy than some of the roads round here!!!!

At least UK white road markings are 'notionally' gritted for grip, unlike the Dulux reported in some foreign climes!

"Position 2 in 30 zones!" EEEK! What's the 'approved' advice for passing a row of parked cars these days? Used to be "Slow down, leave a car-door width to your near side!"... riding 'to the book' in a 30 limit with parked cars would give you a nervous breakdown trying to decide the precedence of those two bits of procedure, wouldn't it, if you hadn't stopped behind a badly parked kiddie-carrier to have it! lol!

I LIKED the old preface that the 'tools' in Road-Craft were just that, and for a rider to use judgement to use or not.. it WAS about THE most sensible thing in the whole darn book!

In principle a 'European' driving licence is the same accross the union, and the groups of entitlement on one issued any-where by the union, are just as valid in any other country in the union.

So if you have an 'full' A2 '45bhp' motorcycle entitlement, not learner entitlement, then its valid accross the EU... and when you have surrendered your native (wherever that is) issued EU licence for a UK issued EU licence, should have exactly the same entitlements on it... and you should be legally allowed to ride exactly the same bikes you could 'at home'.

BUT UK licence afgency is notoriouse for getting things wrong... so be worth while 'loosing' your other durastiction EU licence and asking your 'home' issuing office for a replacement.... surrender replacement to UK DVLA office to get UK Licence.. so IF they accidentally forget to put eligible groups on it... you have the old original to 'find' as proof they should put groups back on!

Otherwise you should be able to ride any bike up to 45bhp and over weight limits.... no CBT or 'Compulsary Basic Training' course required.

BUT... we dont drive on the right side of the road, we drive on the right side, as in the correct, side of the road, which is the LEFT side of the road in this country.... unlike the rest of europe, so whether you need do a course to get an entitlement UK licencing dont recognise or not.... PROBABLY worth talking to a school, and seeing if they do some sort of 'Back-To-Bikes' course or offer refresher lessons etc, to get a bit clued up on UK road laws and conventions, and general mayhem.... its a very people packed little island, with a lot more traffic compared to most other placed on the continent!!!

School will also be best clued up to review your documents and give specific advice vis swapping licence with UK licence office.

Bottom line here is CREDIT.
£600 in the pot, you already know doesn't buy you much of a 125 motorbike. Meanwhgile it doesn't go far towards an A2 course, or even getting an A1, given you need repeat CBT shortly.

Old adage that is much out of fashion in today's credit-culture, If you cant pay hard cash you can't afford it, credit is NOT the soft option... fashions change but truth remains.... and its not just the buying of bike; you have already mentioned insurance, and premium prices twice as much as you barely have cash to buy bike....

If you are short of money, paying 1/3 more to 'rent' some-one else's money to buy a bike, and then 1/3 more to buy insurance you similarly cant afford upfront, IS a rather perverse way of making ends meet.... And there are PLENTY of pit-falls in finance and insurance, and combining the two, is, frankly, like dangling your dangly bits over the mincer whilst stood on roller skates, and shouting "Dont worry, I wont slip!"

SO, as described, I do a Richard Prior and 'Vote None of the Above!", and suggest backing up and revisiting 'the plan' from the top.

WHY do you need transport?

[Ste]

I spent a year in Manchester... admitedly about half your life-time before you were born, but it had pretty good buses running every ten minutes or so, and it was, I cant recall, as or cheaper to get 3 in a taxi coming back from the clubs....

So why do you NEED personal transport?

You have already mentioned the problem of parking, let alone secure parking.. why buy problems if you dont have to?

Yeah, other people do it... if they can afford it, whet the heck.... what you have said so far YOU cant afford it.... neither can other's probably, but that's their problem, and one YOU don't have to have.

Think long and hard about it....

There's 60 million people in the UK, half of them drive a car,and there's more cars for them to drive than there are qualified drivers. There's only something like 7o,ooo motorcycles; half of them are learner legal mopeds and 125's, ANY one of almost 50million folk can get on and ride without taking a test..... And, of them 3o,ooo learner legals, over 2/3 are mopeds and scooters, not geared motorbikes, you would preffer....

THEN, sold on on average every 18 months or so, there's only something like 3ooo the length and bredth of the country that will come up for sale each month.... and at least 1/3 to 1/2 of those will not be even advertised, let alone advertised on a nice convenient web-site on the smurfone in your pocket.....

Manchester.... I still grimace at the "in 'Norf" suggestion; I had freinds that drove 200 miles south to get there, and they didn't talk a forreign language like scootch.... well... actually.. no skipping onwards...

2/3 the population of the UK live south of the wash; that is where more than 2/3 of the bikes in the country also live. And even living in the midlands, almost slap bang on the geometric center of area of the country, a stones throw from Meriden, where they used to make Triumph Bonavilles, I know pickings are a bit 'slim', even when 3 coasts, and 90% of the counrty is within an hour and a halfs 'legal' drive of me....

Point is, first, its a sellers market for Learner-Legals, theres not very many of them, and there's far more people who can ride one, and want one, and 'think' its the panacea to thier transport problems and HAS to be the 'cheap' option, that want them; and most of them are not on your door-step...

And you are looking at the dumbell ends of the market; old bikes at the very bottom end of the market you might buy cash, and the top end, where you might buy on the neva-neva... Which is the same p;lace MOST of the buyers wanting a 125 are at... so join the cueue, wait your turn and DONT expect a 'bargain'.

To find ANYTHING you will have to do some leg work; lots of little bikes, ad mentioned dont get advertised on the smurfone sites; they are traded accross works canteen tables, in college car-parks, or down the club or otherwise by word of mouth. Especially at the lower end of the market, folk are loath to spend money on adverts, so they get stuck in obscure 'free' ads in corner shop windows or local free-papers etc;

You want a 'better' deal on a 2nd hand bike; you HAVE to be prepared to hunt, do the leg work, talk to people, look in all the corner shop windows, all the free papers, and use the grape vine; you will NOT get there so quick only looking at the smurphone! AND you have to be prepared, and able to travel, and travel fast to get to and see anything that may bve worth handing over cash for, and a bit clued up when you get there to be sure it IS before you hand over any cash!

Learner-Legals lead hard lives. Buyers tend to be either learners who know neither how to ride them or look after them, and/or budget commuters, who just want to beat busfares loath to spend a penny on them if they can get away with a cable tie and a bit of saw dust....

This is why so many older, cheaper 125's are frankly complete wrecks... yet, 'cos of buyers market, and fact that buyers are often even more eager and optimistic and even less clued up than the seller... they STILL fetch prices they really dont deserve.

NOW... Typical 125 Learner/Commuter, has anticipated service life of aprox 7 years and perhaps 40,ooo miles. And any dont live that long!

Average annual miles for a motorcycle now, is around 3ooo a year. And that average is brought up an awful lot by commuters, of which most are under 125cc, and used every day transport and frequently crank up 6ooo miles a year or more on them, going to and from work.

More reason so many are in such dire state so early in life' more STILL, it costs almost as much to make a 125cc motorcycle as a 1250cc motorcycle; there's just as many wheels to bolt on the thing; just as many seats; just because the hole where fire happens is smaller is little to no reason they should be any cheaper. Reasomn they are, is because people expect them to be, and are loath to pay so much for a 'small' bike; so they are built down to a price,. and to do that, built down to a quality...

Of which the generic Chinese offerings are some of the lowest; as you might have already noted; because they are mostly built for the developing Asian market where labour is low, and its cheap enough to pay some-one to do the frequent maintenance they need if well used. Here in the UK, labour is expensive, and a mechanic wont be any cheaper, nor will oil or spark plugs because they are working on a Shinray or a Lexmoto not a Honda or Yamaha.

Now, the 'saving' on buy price of a generic chink, starts to pall some, as they demand more paid for labour and parts to keep them working.... take heed. But, with something like 3/4 of the UK small bike registrations, now generic chionese brands, it is something of an accademic topic.

As said, its hobsons choice out there, its a sellers market, there just aren't that many learner legal bikes, and so many more buyers for them, ALL looking to snag something cheaper than a Citreon Saxo, and frustrated they dont have fifty to choose from on thier door-step.

So back to top; 'the plan'... think hard... is there one here?

If you cant afford to pay cash, you cant afford to pay MORE to pay to borrow some-one elses money, either for bike, or to get insurance on the monthly.

There are big stings in the tail, to the credit plan for either, and your insurance quotes are just the first hint; they DONT like young riders, and they dont like 'bad' post-codes, and you are both before you begin...

Next, little bikes get crashed, and get nicked; the risks are high, and Third-Party-Only, doesn't matter whether you are riding a brand new gold plated custom Yamahga YZF-R125 or a rusty ten year old Keeway; you can make just as big a dent in the side of a kiddie carrier full of kittens on either.. and THAT is what you are paying insurance to indemnify yourself against; price of the bike matters not a lot!

Insurance looks like your biggest problem here, and £1200 a year or so, its likely as much or more, than even a brand new Jap brand bike on the monthlies......

There is some justification for 'in for a penny, in for a pound' reasoning here; If you have to get in the sea with the sharks.... you might as well be on a cruise liner as a rubber dingy.... BUT, first step IS to recognize you are getting into shark infested waters!

£100 a month, on the knock for the bike; another £100 a month on the knock for the insurance, and geez, before you have even put petrol in it you have pledged your soul to the credit-devil for half as much as I spend a YEAR on my bike.. total!

Have to say that its one of the few perks of old age, but... I pay about £100 a YEAR for my insurance... and the bike was bought and paid for, cash, over a decade ago, I only have to pay for what I use by way of tyres and petrol and engine oil.... and ALL IN, my annual biking budget is only about £500 a year!

+Commuting..... you say thats main reason for wanting bike... check insurance proposals carefully; its often an 'opt in' on bike policies that are NOT so commonly used for every day sole transport any more; and opting 'in' can put the premiunm up by 30-50% spo be even more expensive than it already seems.....

Insurance is something of a skam, and the biggest sharks live in that particular pool; but its gambling in reverse, and the tables are loaded in their favour, not yours, they do it for a living!!! There's few ways to win, many MANY ways to loose..... and with high compulsary and voluntary exceses on the proposal, its very very VERY easy to end up 'burned' on the deal.

Eg; No4 son, had a CG.... thought he was being smart, and got mummy to insure it for him on the knock.... better post code than one in which he lived; mummy under wrote credit plan, mummy a car driver was even on the policy, to bring it down more; Voluntary excesses were never even looked at, +commuting not ticked... he gave the Ins co EVERY reason to squirm out of paying if he ever had a crash, and being left liable for thier losses on top.... As was, bike was nicked.... ins co did pay out.... but after deducting the excess, and after paying off the credit co for the outstanding balance of the 'monthly plan' he ended up with no bike, no money, and arguments with mummy whop was STILL paying the insurance co, when he was wondering why he didn't have a new bike!!!!

Thats the first sting of buying insurance on the knock; its not pay as you go; its a credit plan to buy a years insurance, and that insurance is ended by a total loss claim; so before they pay you any money, they take all remaining monthly payements for the year off the top, plus thier exceses, plus howver much they have discounted the declared value of bike... and rather than getting money, you CAN end up oweing it... and not monthly. straight away.

And IF the bikes on the knock too? And you were expecting the insurance pay out to clear the outstanding finance? Lol!

Like I said, its shark infested waters, and if you cant afford the buy price and you cant afford the policy premium, up front, CASH out your pocket... you CANT AFFORD it, and rather than making it 'easy' to pay, you can very easily end up finding it even HARDER to pay... not for the bike you would like... but for the bike you no longer have!

BE WARNED.

Like I said, if you can do without a bike.... why buy problems for yourself? Think HARD.

If you want 'fast' buy a faster bike..... and that probably wont be a 125... even the fastest of the fast hot-snot two-stroke 125's are not exactly much more than a bit brisk in the greater scheme of stuff.. the homogation special, factory prepared 'race' bikes, JUST about managed to crack a genuine ton under FIM test regs.... which is pretty slow, if you look at the books, where almost anything over 125cc can get those sort of numbers and not go 'bang' in the trying!!! That is abouyt as quick as a thirty something year old Honda 250 four-stroke single 'commuter' bike!!!

A-N-D on a CBT you dont have a licence, you have a learner's permit... go get some savvy, save your cash for getting a licence, and prove you can handle the pathetic power of a 125....

Then, Oh-Kay, you might not be allowed to ride anything bigger or pokier than a 125.... and anything that can better 15bhp and about 75mph... which can still break all UK speed limits without too much effort, is going to be outside the limitations of a licence you dont even hold right now..... but, what the heck... not needing to display L-Plates that are probably missing, broken, under-size or non regulation, is a good reason NOT to get pulled, for a look-see, to see what else they can knoble you on... like a noisy pipe, or lack of insurance or riding other than in accordance, 'cos bikes not learner-legal....

YOUR CALL... but start with a basic, proper, thorough service, and finding all you should have as standard, before having silly ideas about making slow-bike, likely slower, less reliable and less valuable for the effort.

In the mean-time... enjoy the fact you are too young to have more... old age has little to commend it, big bikes is one of the few compensations.

There only diddy... sure you could find space for one, somewhere.... the living-room perhaps?

Uncle used to have an MV Augusta Ipotesi as a piece of statuary in the hall at the farm, when my Gran died....... had to chuck out the Jacobean dresser to make room for it..... and the telephone had to go on the floor.... "Useless bit of furniture!" He grumbled... I wasn't sure whether he was talking about the dresser or the Ipotese!

Another acquaintance, actually had three ex GP125's in his living room... one was a Kreidler, I think, the other two probably Derbi's, co-incidentally.....

When he got married..... his missus told him she was NOT going to put up with a work-shop for a living-room... where his RC30 had usually lived... normally in bits.....

So he re-decorated!

Dont sweat the small stuff, big-boy.....

125's are all much of a muchness... I'm 6'2" ish depending on the weather, and anywhere between 12 & 15 stone, depending on the mood of the scales.... (I do have a yo-you weight issue actually!) I have a CB750 'big-bike' and a CB125 'tiddler', and there's bog all difference in 'fit' twixt them cos of how big the engine may be.

Motorbikes are like 'off-the-peg' cloths... they are made around standard patterns to fit most folk of average size.

How big the hole where fire happens in the engine, has little or no bearing on how large the rest of the motorcycle may be.. they are still designed to fit a standard shaped and average sized rider, regardless, and a pair of 26" wide handlebars, don't much care whether they are fitted to a Mobilette 35cc pedal and pop moped, or a CB1000 super-bike....

The issue as far as fit goes is the ergonomics, and the distance twixt, boot, bum and bars.

Now, forget seat height; that's just how far bum be from floor, and easy to kid yourself you need a bike with tall seat to suit long legs, or low seat to suit short ones.

Here-in lies the niggle of girls with little legs buying cruisers... with very low seat heights.... cos of short legs... that then dont reach the forward set foot=-pegs in another county some-where infront of the engine, and wide bars that spread them out like a bondage-bar... which I probably wouldn't complain about.... sorry, wheat were we talking about.... my mind got stuck on images of leather stretched tightly over breasts.....

Oh... yeah.. sorry.. where were we... oh yeah, Leather clad Gilrls on Cruisers.....

We apologize for the interruption.... Normal service may return shortly after the screen has been cleaned... in the mean time please listen to some musak

... unable to turn the bars more than a couple of inches without leaning the wrong way.

Conversely, tall lads get dirt-bikes... cos seat is long way from floor, which must suit long legs, right? Only problem goes t'other way. Now the footpegs are usually lifted as much or more from the floor as the seat... which on soft, long travel off-road suspension probably squashed down to something as close to the floor as a cruiser when 13 odd stone is put on it.... leaving distance twixt footpegs painfully close to bum, and with very narrow saddles to allow rider motion 'off-road' thay can be as pile-fully excruciating as a plank for a seat sports bike with rear-set pegs..... and the handle-bars again, have issues, placed wide, which may not be such a problem is you have neanderthal arms like me, but set back close to the seat, so you are elbowing following traffic at more than 1/3 lock.....

That's two corners of the triangle; third is sports-bikes; which often an incredibly small 'slot' for a saddle, rear-set pegs and incredibly narrow bars, that can create similar perversions.

Of note; one of THE most painful bikes I have ever tried to ride, was oooh... thirty odd years ago, and a Honda MT125 GP bike; forerunner of the RS racers. WHEENY little thing; issues I had with it was that it had a bub-stop seat like racers do, so I could just about sit 'in' it, but then it had a fairing, but so narrow I could neither get my knees in it, or behind it.... it was a bit like Wurzel Gummage on a push bike! But this is to point at the extreme...

And that IS sort of the point; at the extremes, whether its for road-racer sports style, whether for Sons-of-Appethy chopper fantasies or dirt busting Charlie & Ewan dreams.... you run out of the 'average', and in all liklihood, any body that's out of the average is going to have more struggle on one.

Back to the fact that the bike is designed around an average sized person, regardless of the size of hole where fire happens....

If you are at the extremes of 'average' or beyond them, you are, like trying to buy a pair of off the peg trousers, going to struggle some, and find a fit thyat is the best compromise you can.....

Hint here is that the 'average' less syle conciouse usually 'naked' commuter, like a CG125, lexmoto or MT125, is more likely to be LESs of a compromise... but its up to you to pick the one you 'think' you can most easily live with....

INSURANCE

I say it time after time, but when trying to start biking, the BIKE is actually almost the last thing you need worry about... long list of stuff that's far more significant you need before that, and after CBT, and contemplation of a proper full licence, training, tests, a crash hat, water-proofs cos this is Britain..... locks, security, and stuff... INSURANCE is usually the crux point.

For typical 17 year old, insurance quotes can be astronomical; especially if you don't look at the proposal form so well, and dont tick the "+commuting" check box. Worth noting that motorcycles, now, so often used as second and leisure vehicles, do not usually included "+Commuting" in the standard SDP cover, you have to opt in for that cover... and it can STING when you do.....

No real tricks to getting insurance prices down, other than say GET OLD! Which works... but otherwise has little merit to it! And for a typical 17 year old depending on post-code, its likely that the annual insurance premium will be as much or more than they paid for the bike..... £1000+a year premiums are the norm, not the exception.

"The monthly plan" also worth mentioning; its not paying for insurance monthly; its taking out a loan to pay for a years insurance.... 17 year olds can struggle here, because they are not legally old enough to tale out a credit deal..... but that then hides a lot of the sting in the take small print, and on a monthly plan, first you will be paying something like 20% more than the premium price in credit charges.... on a £1000 policy that can be a not insignificant amount on its own.... as much as togging up with hat and gloves and decent boots... every year.... but then the hidden charges start to bite; and you can be left owing the credit company even after a 'claim' has supposedly paid out 'in full' because the insured value is subject to 'excess' and after they have deducted those, and terminated the policy, they only pay the value of the bike, and that can be less than outstanding repayements on the credit plan....

BE WARNED... I have not and WILL not tried to 'help' any of my kids trying to wangle insurance for them, by say taking a policy in my name, with them as named rider, or undersigning credit plan.... now ex did for one... and was left moaning that No4 son diodn't pay her back the monthlies that came out of her bank, and then when his bike was nicked, were still being taken from her account for six months after he'd given up on it, and grumbled he couldn't owe her anything, he'd not seen any of the insurance money..... she must owe him! It is just NOT somewhere I want to go or be involved in! Your call if you do.... just dont say I didn't tell you so!!!

BUT, that's a hurdle;e to be jumped, and often one of the biggest.... you cant do much about the rider's age; you cant do much about the rider's gender, you cant do much about the riders post code, etc etc etc.

Means that one of the few variables you can mess with to try get more reasonable premiums, is picking the most insurable bike. Here, the newer it is, the more expensive it is; the more expensive the bike, the more expensive it is to insure; the more stylish it is... the more expensive it is to insure. Old and Ugly tends to work quite well!

Bench-Mark Learner/Commuter motorcycle of recent times is the veritable YAMAHA YBR125.. it's not particularly flashy; is usually pretty solid though, and has about as much performance as any pof them. Is well known and common, and has lots of after-market support for spares and accessories, and IS in the insurance companies date-bases, unlike obscure European or Chinese offerings, sold under almost fly-by-night brand-names that dont seem to last as long as the tyres.... The YBR is a known and trusted quantity, and other than overall being one of the cheapest 125's to own in the long term.. what extra you might have to pay to buy one, you usually get back when you sell, and save whilst you own..... it IS easy to live with.... its also easy to ride, its a regulation as average as they come learner motorcycle, with as few compromises to style or performance as they can give it. Usually fits most reasonably comfortably... it just does the job, no mess no fuss, no frills.. though more than enough thrills if you go looking for'em!

Bought at three or four years old, with a fresh MOT, the first ownbers have taken the biggest sting of new bike depreciation, and you should be able to get a bike for about half the cost of a new bike in the show-room, that still has more than half it's useful service life in it, and some assurance it hasn't been tinkered, crashed or serviced into oblivion during MOT exemption.... as said, bench-=mark Best VFM 125 out there.

Typical example will likely cost around £1500 or so, use that as bench mark to judge all else by.

As said, designed around 'average' ride, and few if any compromises for alternative style, it should fit pretty much any-one 'reasonably' well...

Alternatives?

Well, first off, there's 60odd million people in the UK. Over half of them can drive a car, and there are actually more cars taxed for road use for them to drive, than there are folks licenced to drive them. Less than 1% of road transport is by bike....Less than 1 million then... yet around 3x as many folk with a licence to ride them... and that's a FULL licence.... half the taxed bikes in the UK are Learner-Legals, any-one with a licence can ride on L-'s... so there's a heck of a lot more potential buyers for a lot less possible vehicles.... and of the half million or so 125's there may be.... 2/3 or more are mopeds and scooters, not 'bikes'.

You come down to perhaps 150,ooo learner legal motorcycles you could buy for the lad, the length and bredth of the country; owned on average 18 months or so, less than 1000 might come up for sale in any one month.... and of them? Probably half will be tag end of life scrap heap refugees, or restoration projects. A Third of what's left will likely be nearly new and in MOT exemption, out of budget or in dealers show-rooms with inflated price tags.

Leaves maybe 250 motorcycles, on sale in any one month, you MIGHT actually stand a chance of finding a better example among.... the lenght and bredth of the country, if you are prepare to travel to see them, and get there before any-other optimist with £-notes burning a hole in thier pocket......

You THINK you have choice, and you think you want to make the smart one... but reality is its Hobson's....

You cant buy a bike that aint for sale... and you have to be prepared to travel to find it, and travel quick to get a better one before any-one else does...

And your choice... REALLY?!? With an eager teenager at your heel? Nagging you to get the first thing they rev-up on some-ones drive?!?

My advice; Stuff the mags, stuff the specs; matters very little.. what matters is bikes you can get to, see and sussed out in the metal... and a bike thatr might look great in the brochures or reviews wont look so great in cold day-light, after three or four numpty learners have had at it..... then specs mean little, what's in the metal matters....

But again... you have to be there, on the spot looking at something, with the quid-coins rattling in your pocket, first... and the bike, is STILL pretty much last thing on the list of stuff to worry about.....

And Yam YBR125, remains the bench-mark..... get your lad to sit on one, and give him the schpiel about how they are the best one-size fits all, least cost, least hassle, most 'sensible' learner-bike.... and work from there......

IF... and this is BIG if... you actually want to make this YOUR problem, and be the one in the firing line for anything and everything from lending the extra to get the bike they think really worth the extra, to putting your name on credit agreement for insurance, to being the one, trying to cram the thing in the back of an estate car, when he's gone top a party and one of his 'mates' had decided to pull the fuel hose for a laugh! Or worse!

Having been there, done that and got the T-Shirt.. now, I would be very very sangine about getting that involved, and reckon it easier to be called a miserable old bugger, than any of the other possible names that would get chucked at me! I WOULD get involved... I know... done it too many times.... but I'd be curbing enthusiasm and putting definite limits on what help I'd offer.... including not being the one to check the chain for them, let alone undersign credit agreements!!! Like I said... your kid, your call, but dont say I didn't tell you!!!!

Meanwhile, not answering the question you wanted answering, make and model, make very little odds in the grander scheme, you can only buy a bike that's for sale... forget the mags, forget the brochures, go pound shoe-leather... no point setting your sites on the 'perfect' fantasy league 125, if none come up in the small adds!

(Another hint, an awful lot of 125's get sold not in the mags or on e-bay or gum-tree of anywhere else you can easily 'look', but accross canteen tables at break-times, in colleges and factories or in works car-parks, by word of mouth..... use the grape-vine, look in at the post-cards in news-agents windows, ask around at work, tell lad to ask around at college, network the old fashioned face to face way like without a smart-phone!! With the odds against you to start with, you have to go that extra mile to tip the tables even slightly)


3-4 year old machine, the early owners taking the hit of new-bike depreciation, whilst leaving more life in the thing than they have used, and some assurance its not been ridden and crashed into the ground during MOT exemption.... you're either pretty smart to start, or you have read up a lot.... good choice

Maybe not so smart.. IF you are competant and confident enough to commute... you shouldn't need practice... just the tests... then you could have a full licence and no need to 'practice'... you need practice... go practice, don't commute.

Daily commute is wot you has to do, not wot you want to do.. and anticipating the grief you are going to get, whilst you wake up.. you are not really in a learning frame of mind, or the most alert or clued in, to learn anything, even if it isn't the 'Rush-Hour' and you are trying to dodge umpety other numpties also onlyt half awake, contemplating a day of grief from boss or customers or clients or collegues, also not the most alert to what they should be doing like... WATCH THE EFFIN ROAD!! NO, that poor biker DIDN'T come out of no-where!!!!!! And "Sorry-Mate-I-Didn't-See-You" DOESN'T make it all alright!!!

L-Plates is for learning... to pass tests... not dodging them or getting too and from work on the cheap.... you want to 'Learn' go do it on your own time, where there aren't so many half awake idiots to dodge and you dont have to make excuses to the boss if you are late.. and take tests.. THAT is supposedly what you have L-Plates for.... when you have the licence, then you can go play with the psyco-killers-in-cages on the way to work.... maybe.....

Also worth mentioning that L-Plates and going it alone, is not the best way to learn much.... it don't teach you what you should do, either to get from AtoB on a bike, or make man with clipboard for a personality happy and give you licence..... just punishes you.. brutally.. with pain or costs usually... if you get it wrong.... and dont even tell you what WAS wrong very often.... so back to top.... L-is-for-Learner, to learn to pass tests, not dodge'em or get to and from work on the cheap... and if you is good enough to get to and from work, you is good enough to take tests, or vica versa... if bot good enough to take tests... PROBABLY not a great idea to try getting too and from work every day!!!

I dont believe you... basic daily checks and routine maintenence should have been covered on the CBT.. A-N-D you know enough to ask.....

Beyond that.... the owners manual is as good a place to start; should tell you what routine checks and adjustments should be done, like when it needs an oil change or a fresh spark plug, what the tyres pressures should be and all that stuff.

Haynes Manual is also useful, and goes into a lot more detail on a lot more stuff, to the point of complete over-haul and minor repairs like replacing a rear view mirror....

STUFF You-Tube tutorials... any-one can make one of them, I have even done it myself.... like most stuff on the net, you have absolutely no idea whether whoever has created the tutorial or post or advice page knows the first thing about what they are talking about, or if its really a good idea to follow thier advice..... Haynes manual, for all the chapter hopping frustration they may cause IS written by folk that know what they are talking about, and you can have some confidence in.... get one, use one, save asking silly questions and getting silly answers, and possibly being lead up the garden path by it all.

Err.. yeah... maybe... almost forty years ago, now, I was told, "If you want a motorbike, you need know how to fix one... 'cos if you cant fix it you gotta pay some-one who can, and if you can afford that, you wouldn't be messin' with motorbikes, you'd be able to afford a car..." Which... held a lot of truth forty years ago, and more than a little still now... but....

Mistakes COST.. end of.

As going it alone on L's hoping that you will learn by accident... not being taught what to do, but being able to work out what went wrong when you fell off..... the ecconomic models you create to justify your ideas and aspirations can very quickly get rather dented by the real world...

And little learner bikes, IF they aren't thrashed, trashed and crashed to oblivion between periods of complete neglect... are as often killed with kindness and over enthusiastic fiddle fingers.....

One of the most common examples here, is the Chain... you get told on CBT to check the tension every ride..... and some completely ignore that lesson and ride the thing till its as slack as a witches.... or they take it to heart and adjust the tension every day.... and cause all manner of havoc... usually setting the chain over tight.. putting stress on the gearbox out-put shaft that then chews its oil seal and bearing, which then starts to whione and leak, but probably only after they have moaned about 'funny steering' becuse the axle is at an angle in its slots, the chain adjusters are chewed to high heaven, and the brake is probably binding 'cos they have never slackened off the brake adjuster to move the wheel back-wards when they have tensioned the chain....

It's all not that daunting to DIY... but the possible effups are myriad, and if you have cracked a sump over tioghtening the drain plug doing an oil changfe or stripped a thread cross threading a spark plug in its hole.... this idea that DIY 'must' save you money can get rather turned upside down, when you have to pay some-one even more, not just to do what you did wrong, but fix the damage you did trying.....

Now, paying a mechanic may NOT be such a daft ecconomy..... Think hard on that.

IF you want to learn mechanics.... it can be fin, I have spent the last 40 years playing spanners... B-U-T you dont learn it all over night, nor do you collect all the tools you need at halfords in an afternoon, and for less than what you might pay a half decent mechanic in a year.....

Start adding in the tools to do the jobs you need to, and it can be a very long time before you start to see any actual 'savings' over using a half clued and kitted pro-mechanic.... you just have more clutter to keep clean and have folk expecting to borrow.....

Have to say, that it IS good fun, much more so than another TV reality show; its also very rewarding, and you get to know your bike..... and hopefully..... very very hopefully.... that its as mechanically good as it can be, and jobs are done, and done well... which you probably don't, when you leave it with a pro and go back and get a bill, for what they say they have done...

BUT, starting out, you probably wont save much, you will likely end up spending a LOT on tools and the like, and mistakes cost.... and you WILL make them.....

Buy the book.. do it to the book.... and it should limit how far wrong you might go, and how much money you wast along the way.....

Buy the book!!! Theres a checklist in the front. Remember your CBT and your pre-ride and daily checks!

Most important thing on a bike is the tyres.... you are balenced on a knife edge between life and death, and them two skinny bits of rubber is pretty much all thats between you and catastrophe! Make sure they is good! And on a YBR that means not the ever-lasting chit they fit at the factory, or cheapo after market replacements.... good tyres are a boon on ANY bike, and even more so on a lightweight.... but completely useles if they dont hold air or have tread on them.... so check them regular.

Brakes! Before you 'go' make sure you can STOP! You probably have a low maintenance disc on the front, that is self adjusting, and easily ignored as theres not a lot to check other than the master cylinder reservoir has fluid in it..... fluid does tend to go off with age though, and what you got is probably past its best.... there was proposal to have a fluid test on MOT not so long ago, the stuff has a service life of maybe 3 years before it needs changing, and if hard used, probably sooner... and on your bike, good odds its never been flushed and replaced. Brake pads... you should just about be able to see from the front if they have meat left on them; oft harder to see is whether the pads are chewed up. Easier to see if crap has got between them and the disc if there are grooves in the disc.. but that too is oft ignored, as discs are expensive..... most likely cause of early wear though is neglect, the things have pins the caliper moves on that should periodically be cleaned and greased, and frequently aren't..... again, back to the book, its likely covered in the over-haul sections, rather than routine maintenance, but a thorough clean and grease is something that most bikes disc brakes could do with, at least annually.

Suspension... lack of effective suspension can seriousely effect your steering and stopping.. it is worth paying heed to.

Check on CBT is a quick bounce of the suspension.... but doesn't tell you much other than you have some..... rear suspension units are as standard rather bouncy to begin with, and sealed for life, you cant do much with them even if they are a bit soggy, other than replace.... but they do have rubber mounts, these could do with a quick squizz to make sure the rubber is there, the bolts tight and the units are secure.

Up front... the forks dive every time you brake... and little learner bikes get broken a lot.... learners are notoriouse for being rather 'reactive' and harsh on the brakes, using them a lot, and hard, and this pounds the front springs and the damping oil inside them.

Generally not paid much attension until they start weeping oil, and folk mutter that its a 'quick-fix' that 'only' costs a fiver... it err.... is and it isn't.... pair of fork seals are probably only £6 and a bottle of oil maybe £10.. isn't too hard a job to replace them, but its not a five minute job..... changing fork oil though is something that probably should be done far more often... and usually isn't and on a 4-year old YBR good chance its never been done.... be a good one to consider doing, and probably aught be done about once a year.

Steering.... most lightweights still use loose balls in the steering bearing, which are 'cheap' if not the easiest to lube or overhaul... they could use new grease periodically, but good chance you will loose the balls trying to fit it! Your call! They DO need asjusting periodically though to take up the slack as the bearings wear, and like a lot of stuff, often ignored until the thing is failed on MOT for it.... generally needs a special C-Spanner and is a pain as the top yoke often has to be removed to get at the nut, which means removing handlebars and stuff... which is why its oft neglected.... but is worth doing when you get a new bike, and periodically after... maybe once a year before the MOT man can moan.

Take note... gone a long way down the list so far and not even got close to anything 'engine' wise.....

Lights... you need them, they should work, and lenses shouldn't be cracked or anything. Again, its a CBT pre-ride check, oft ignored, but.. worth doing.. and a little time spent cleaning contacts and making sure lenses aren't full of condensation, spraying stuff with WD40, as a water repellant wot it was actually develoiped for, NOT as a chain oil or release agent on rusty nuts and bolts.... can save a lot of grief in the long run....

PETROL!.. probably the number one on the CBT pre-ride check-list... "Make sure you have enough furl for journey" but, you have a YBR and a late example with Fuel-Injection I would hope, that is known for eating its own fuel pumps... worth keeping tabs on that one.

Engine Oil another CBT daily/Pre-Ride check. I would do an oil change as course when I got a new (to me) bike. Check book for amount and grade, it probably takes about half a litre of so, and likes it changed pretty often, as in every 1000 miles or so.... again heed Kill-it-With-Kindness warnings above, do NOT over tighten the drain plug!

Chain & Sprockets.... already mentioned, is a CBT pre-ride check, but take heed of the killing-it-with-kindness comment....

Chain lube is a topic talked to death, to which there is no right or wrong answer really. On bigger bikes, they have been fitting 'sealed' O or X ring chains for a couple of decades. These are pre-packed at the factory with grease in the rollers, and should be sealed for life.... the lube you stick on them just eases the take up of the rollers onto the sprocket.. and can do as much harm as good, collecting road grime and making a rather effective grinding paste to wear out chain and sprockets faster.... good cleaning to get rid of grim is probably far more worth while as a precaution, than actual lube.

Sealed chains are oft replaced with 'plain' chains on competition bikes, as they don't have to last as long, and maintenance intervals are far shorter anyway, and they are lighter and dont have the same inherent amount of power-sap.... which is why they are usually the OE fit on lightweights that have very little power to start with.

My sport is comp-trials.. I have used the same chain for seasons, even in the harsh conditions 'off-road', pulling it after every event,. cleaning and then pickling in old engine oil... and a couple of times a season 'hot dipping'... putting an old pot on a camping stove full of old oil and then running the chain through it for the oil to flush out any crap in the links.... then repeating with another pot with half a pound of axle grease, melted in it, to get the grease into the links, then leaving it to hang and cool, so that grease is where its most useful, and crud isn't.... NOT so practical on an every-day road bike..... but old boys, in my yooof swore by the practice and would do it as an annual ritual.

Practically then? Remove the chain to thoroughly clean, and clean the sprockets. Keep clean between times, and use as little chain oil as you can get away with, as often as you clean to prevent building up grinding paste.

Dont worry too much about brands and bottles.. chain wax is usually thicker and intended for O-Ring chains where its not got to flow into the links, so isn't going to be that useful on a plain chain where it should.

Oil is great on the chain, but not so great on the tyres... so again, pay more attension to them... chains and sprockets are service replaceable parts, expect to have to replace them, better to have to replace a C&S kit than come off cos the oil has thrown onto chitty tyres!

Oh! whilst on the topic... 3-4 year old YBR..... I'd be tempted to replace the C&S kit as a matter of course having got it, and not need worry about it again while I have the bike TBH... BUT, I would probably also replace the chain adjusters at the same time, as they are usually chewed up by folk learning to ride and look after bikes...

BUT number one, tip, I would also replace the cush-drive-rubbers between the sprocket carrier and the hub.... These are about a tenner a set at last look... they are rubber blocks that fit between paddles on the sprocket carier and the bub, and take all the drive force.... out of site out of mind they tend to get ignored, and they 'shrink' with use as the ends get hammered between the engine driving the wheel, and the wheel driving the engine, on acceleration then breaking.... and on more clumsily ridden learner-bikes they get hammered hard... and they go hard with age....

Worst case when they 'go' you tend to get a mysteriouse 'clonk' when you roll off the throttle or brake, but long before that, the slop makes itself felt in a more sloppy gear change that gets more awkward and les precise as time goes on...

Cheap and easy fix, a new set of cush-rubbers can completely transform the gear change and make the bike so much nicer and easier to ride... its worth doing just as a bit of prevenmtative, and once done, will probably not need doing again while you own the bike.

My road bvike, gets a wash, MAYBE once a year, if its lucky so the MOT man dont moan he gets his hands dirty waggling the forks.....!!!!!

Again, DONT kill with kindness! there's much more important things to worry about than how shiny the paintwork may be, like whether the electrolyte level is between the lines in the battery.....

Products? Lol! I am NOT a GQ-Man of the millenium, it dont need fancy brand-name brylcream to be kept clean, and it wont smell no better for it!

The trials bike, REALLY benefits from a good post event clean down every event; that's done with fresh water from a pressure washer; a bucket of hot soapy water and an old dust-pan brush cloth and sponge... and its done as much to get rid of the dirt and see possible damage to tyres, wheels, engine cases etc as to make it look good....

Its NOT the cleaning that matters, its the attension to detail..... and NOT doing too much and doing stuff to make problems rather than fix'em.

Rust? If you keep it clean and lube the bits that should be then there shouldn't be any.

On a YBR, there is the small matter of low quality chrome, probably on things like mirrors, handle-bars and exhaust.... you can waste many years trying to keep on top of this with solvol or even sand-paper... but this is britain... it'll likely be back within the week.... time and effort is probably better spent on 3in1 oil to lube the clutch cable and back brake rod links, checking tyres and remembering daily checks.... just be happy its not a Honda CBF rusting before your eyes... and learn to live with it..... or buy a plastic scooter!

Go Buy and BY the book.

[Sister Sledge]

Kin ell Ste. Are you turning into.. Tef?

Absolutely spot on with the details in that lot. I laughed with the mention of off road enduro being big but small. Oh so true! I sit on my bike and the suspension drops dramatically which makes it a small bike. The arse numbing seat too - I dream of dropping a sofa onto the bike for some comfort.
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CCM 404 DS

[LustyLew]

Ste

https://media.giphy.com/media/g8GfH3i5F0hby/giphy.gif

[Ste]

Learner-bikes is about the learning, and learning to exploit 'gears' a large chunk of that.....

Even on a bigger bike, like the O/H's 750c Moto-Guzzi... loaded up to go camping in Derbyshire, it is going to be carrying its ownb weight in loggage and more still in rider, even without a pillion, and having that much more power will NOT mean you can point the thing at hills and expect to get up-em at the posted speed limit just 'cos it has a bigger engine... you STILL need tgo use the gears, you still need to use the throttle, and to do it half reasonably well, know what you is about....

THIS is what learner bikes is all about... the learning!

As said... use one as intended, LEARN, learn to use gears, learn to get the most out of the thing, and how big you are shouldn't really matter.... the learning does.... getting the licence does... NOT GETTING KNOCKED OFF! does.... stuff what you think you look like, stuff whether you think that 3bhp difference between a generic Chinese budget bike and a full-fat style conscious Jap-branded bike will make any difference....

In the real world it WONT....

Most roads are limited to 20 or 30mph speed limits you could achieve on a moped or even a push-bike FFS, on a 125, almost any 125, you will just brake them quicker! And you will be able to break most speed limits all the way to the motor-way limit, and until you have a fuill licence and can legall use a motorway... that really shouldn't be an issue......

Go learn.... diet if you want to, its probably good for you.... heck... push bike? Get around and get fit.. save petrol, and insurance and tax and the rest of it along the way!

BUT, if you want to ride motorbikes, DONT sweat the small-stuff. First step is to go do your CBT to get your 'LEarners-Permit'.. that is all it is.. it is NOT a licence or a suibstitute for a licence, its just fiorst lesson so you can go learn... use learner bike on L's as intended... go learn... gears a big part of that.... and of you have any sense.. get a licence to prove what you have learned along the way.... and THEN..... maybe a ball ache having to weight two years to be allowed anything bigger... B-U-T.. still more learning to be had, and as said, I still ride 125's they are NOT toys or kiddie bikes, they are, if you learn to use one right, as fast as anything else is legally allowed to go in this country, and incredibly useful little machines, with the big bonus that can be pretty ecconomocal on fuel, on tyres and other consumeable bits, and cover a heck of a lot of miles for not a lot of money.....

As said, its in your expectations.... and 'weight' is as much in your head as on your belly.... dont swet the small stuff, go do a CBT, and start learning, rather than worrying... its far more fun.

HIS though could be the real bugger in the log-shed......

Pxris... be warned... when we say that 125's are 'cheap' that is a very relative statement.....

CBT qill likely cost something in the region of £150; you will have to have a crash-hat, and are asvised to sensible foiotwear.. and you can start cranking up big money very quickly chasing all the parafanalia

Going old-skool.... you only need crash proitection IF you crash, and even then it dont stop you getting hurt, or deaded just cusions the blow a bit..... you might togg up for under £100 if you have enough stuff in the wardrobe, or some-one else does you can improvise from, on the layer principle top add padding to soften the bang if you fall off, and where leather does wear well against tarmac, it only does it till it's worn away.... if wool wears twice as fast, have twice as much wool between skin and r4oad and it will last twice as long before skins scraping asphelt... thincker layer of soft wool might also add a bit of bang saving padding too.... so you DONT need to spend a fortune on dedicated bike wear to get the same level of crash protection.

A-n-d your money, to my mind is better spent on crash PREVENTION... which as fresh faced learner, is probably lessons and learnings, so you can dodge the stuff that make you crash... can come expensive though if only lessons you can get is DAS courses intended to win folk big-boy licences in a week... but shop about.

Oh-Kay... £150 worth of CBT coure... £50-80 for a budget crash hat, maybe £30-£50 on some gloves, and since they is cheap enough, probably £50 on a set of water-proof overalls... covers all and any improvised riding gear, keeps you warm, keeps you dry, and I find it rains here in britain more than I get knocked off, so what (weather) protection, they offer is far more used, and you are almost garanteed to get the value from them.

So far budgets up to around £300 and we are only just about ready NOT to but a bike but go look for one..... new in the show-rooms, you are looking at anything from £1500 up to £4500 or more, depending on how pretty you want it to look.....

All good stuff, but probably depressing if you dont have the money for as much pretty as you'd like.... BUT that is far less depressing than when you try get insurance quotes for the thing.....

This is vooddoo maths, we think that the brokers look at the daily weather forcast and use that in thier calculations of hos much they would like to charge you....

BUT at 17, the ONE thing we can say for sure is it AINT gonna be cheap.... cheaper than for a car perhaps, but it AINT going to be cheap as McDonalds french fries!!!

Depends on the bike; its value, its age, and the useage you declare on the proposal... +Commuting so you can use it to and from work or college can multiply 'base' quotes.... so can declared anticipated mileage, and then how much 'voluntary' excess you agree to pay towards on any claim made....

Ball park.. at 17 years old, you are looking at the think end of £1000 a year for insurance, for the least inociouse old heap that can be taxed.... which might only actually cost half that to buy.....

MONTHLY PLAN!

Take note... this is only legally available to over 18's as it is NOT a monthly plan to buyt your insurance month by month; it's a bank-loan to pay for a years insurance policy up-front, and you are left to make the repayements on the loan....

If you are under 18 you may not even be eligible for the monthly plan, you'd have to pay upfront. If you dont have a job, or a job history of unbroken income, or a credit rating.. you may not be offered trhe credit plan, without some-kind soul over 18 who does 'counter-signing' the agreement..... OR taking policy out in thier name with you as named rider on it..... which is a dodge and a bit tricky, but can be done.

Take note... these are off-the batt hurdles you will likely face, and again, long before youe weight becomes an issue, your employment status income and available money WILL!

Err... yup... getting old will help... but 6-months probably wont be long enough to make much of a difference!

Insurance prices dont tend to drop much, if at all until the proposer is over 25, or even 30, and even then, they can remain high if the time the licence has been held isn't long.

Biggest potential discount of insurance prices, is No-Claims-Discount, which vary, but can be as much as 25% for one year, 15% for second and third, then 5-10% for the next couple until you have maximum no-claims at around 5 or 6 years, which can be as much as perhaps 70%,,, before the age you have accrued more the length of full licence accrued in the time you have been collecting NCB gives you double wammy, and by the time you are 30 odd seems like you are paying peanuts compared to other folk...

So IF you are going to get on and do, it's gonna cost. Just accept that, and hopi9ng that things will get cheaper if you wait, and that you might save up a bit more towards them, probably wont help all that much....

Being over 18, as far as the credit hurdles, and having 6-months or more's worth of pay-packet slips to show for it, though probably will.

BUT 125's is 'cheap' to run... compared to bigger bikes, but they aren't all that cheap to buy; You wont get much for under £500 that has an MOT... and the few you might find probably wont work too well for too long.... A-N-D there are far more teenagers on a pocket-money budget all with the same idea, all wanting a 'cheap' 125 to get to work, competing with as many older folk who similarly want cheap-wheels-to-work, you need to be pretty smokey to find one, and clued up when you look at it to know if its worth anything, let alone the ask-price, before some-other mug has snapped it up in thier ignotance...

£1000? Gives you better chance of better bikes. £1500 puts you in the mid-market, and chance at more of the better bikes; of which the bench-mark is a 3-4 year old Yamaha YBR125 commuter... no fancy looks or performance, but solid little work-horse, and over-all consistenly one of the lowest cost 125's to own, 'all in' when you tally up not just the but price, but the depreciation when you come to sell, and the insurance costs and maintenance the thing needs along the way..... £2000-£2500 is puts you into the budget end of the new bike market, where you might get some of less reputeable Chinese made comuters, and maybe just eek something like a YBR ort CBF on discount as an old model. (I believe both are now dropped from the official catalogues as they dont meet latest Ero-Emmissions regs.... you may find a dealer with a last of line pre-reg on offer, if you are lucky) Tht sort of money, then gets you the posier 'premium' 125's second hand, at perhaps 3-5 years old.... which will be more expensive to insure and maintain for your money, and likely work out no cheaper all in, and could be pretty expensive depending.

So! Bench-mark is £15-1700 3-5 year old YBR, thats young enough to still be reasonably reliable, old enough its had to have an MOT or two to keep an eye on worse owner abuse or neglect, and depreciated more in resale price than its been worn out in life expectancy. Add your CBT and basic rider apparel.... and chuck in a lock, you are looking at a ball-park of £2000, whih you likely cant get on credit, as you are too young, and finance companies dont offer credit plans on £80 crash hats and £30 gloves!

Add the insurance.... and that is almost certain to be another £100 or more, especially if you intend to use to go to and from a job you hope to get.....

£3000 and you are just about in the game...

What's nat-min-wage for an 18 year old these days? Will that be discounted for rules that let them pay less if they give you 'training'?

If you have to borrow that money, £3000 a year is £60 a week, straight off the top, before you put petrol in the thing, before you need buy new tyres, or have to replace a bent pair of handlebars or brake lever...... A-N-D you have to be sure you can afford that sort of weekly payement, whether you have the bike or not....

Catches many out, especially if they use credit, but you commit to a years insurance policy, the bike gets nicked, you loose bike, and you probably have to keep paying. You crash the bike.... again; you no longer have use of bike, you have to find more money to fix bike, and in the mean-time, IF you haven't lost job you were hoping would pay for it all... you STILL have to keep paying them monthlies.....

I really dont want to put you off, but nieve optimism can get you into a lot of shit very quick...

Before you get a motorbike, or any motorized road vehicle, you need to be sure you can afford what it will cost; you also have to be sure you can afford to loose it... abd have that contingency covered....

Here, I have to say, that if you DONT have to buy a motorbike, and can get to and from on a push-bike, and that can help the diet along the way, that is all good stuff....

Even if you can afford the motorbike... do you really need it to get to and from work? NOT checking the box to add +commuting on the policy can make it a darn site cheaper, and riding a bike along the same roads day in day out, dealing with half awake idiots also on their way to work, is NOT a lot of fun... and IS the most hazard strewn enviroment likely to crash..... Much the same dangers if you cycle to be honest... but you dont have to pay so much for the discomfort! And taking the bus, and grabbing a bit of extra sleep, IS the sensible thing to do....

Save the bike for the week-end and a bit of fun.... but, then bikes is costing, and still significantly and denying the funds to go down the pub, or go clubbing or whatever ionstead... how would you preffer to get to work? How would you preffer to spend your leisure time? Its that sort of balence to decide on.

All comes down to money, at the end of the day, and things IS stacked against you if you are a teenager, I'm afraid.....

Like I said though... this sort of stuff is ALL far more significant than how heavy you may be, and how that weight might effect the performance of any 125cc motorcycle......

Dont sweat the small stuff, there's bigger fish to fry... Go book a CBT, go learn a thing or two... which is what Compulsory-Basic-Training is supposed to be for.

You don't learn by 'Accident'... well, you might..... but it usually hurts.....

IF you expect to pay big course fees for a course of lessons to teach you how to pass tests..... what 'exactly' do you expect to, well, without doing the lessons to have anything to 'practice' what do you expect to do on a 125 for two-chuffing-years?!?!?

125's are a great training tool, and spending 'some' time on one where they dont have an excess of anything to make life easy for you, and tend to punish you for mistakes rather than flatter numptiness, can instill a level of fine control and finesse many straight to big bike DAS trained folk never get..... but TWO YEARS?!?!?

Either you will spend most of it trying to remember when you last put petrol in it and where the indicator switch is and what you were old on CBT, in a 'cram' of all you have to be told on the course by the DSA rule book, you probably couldn't remember more than half of the next day, let alone TWO CHUFFING YEARS!!!! down the road......
OR, you'll convince yourself that this is all a piece of pizz and you dont know what they were talking about, being lazy about it all, and NOT learning, and NOT instilling the discapline and finesse a 125 can offer.... and muttering things like "Well, we have a 70mph speed limit in this country! I don't wee why ANY-ONE needs anything more powerful than a 125, really!".. decidedly NOT learning, actually dismissing any learning you may have done, as you entrench 'bad-habbits'.. and NOT get a licence.....

Yeah... yuu-bin-teffed....

Go get some lessons, go get a licence... like within the next couple of MONTHS not YEARS... whether you do that on a 125 or via DAS on a big bike, is your call... BUT, you have effall to 'practice' till you dun the lessons, and you have NO plan to do them, just a suggestion you might, at some indefinite point in the future.... mauybe.. when you is confident enough!!!

125's dont give you confidence... wobbling around knowing not what the heck you are doing with only some half remembered ideas from a day doing CBT does not give confidence.... what gives confidence is KNOWING what you are doing.... and you get that by getting a licence, from a chap that is qualified to qualify you and hand you a bit of paper that says "Yup.... you DO know what you are about...carry on!"

"Oh yeah! I DO know what I'm doing, chap with clip-board say so!"

Going it alone on a 125 is the school of hard knocks, and them knocks come hard, and expensive, and you still have to work out what you did wrong to be able to learn from them, 'by accident'...

And if you expect to pay for lessons at some point any-how, cut the crap, cut to the chase, stop wallying at it, and go do it....

If I had had my garage broken into, and all my tools stolen, and the old exhausts and other junk, only I seem to think worthy of anything but a skip... and I had a bike, and a licence, and could get around....

Spending almost £100 to convert my perfectly adequate for however long A2 licence into a must-have 'A' one.. I HAVE to say PROBABLY wouldn't be right at the top of my 'Must-Do' list...

Worrying whether my, self-confessed "not road-worthy" bike, cos its can's too loud, but MOT man don't moan 'cos he knows its in his 'discretion' and even if he did, I'd just take bike home and swap the can for stock, and bring it back, then swap it back over soon as I had bit of paper in my hand.... would then be a bit of rather redundant consequential worry....

But lets have a think about this...

You bung a bike in for MOT with loud pipe and small plate.... you KNOW before you start MOT man has cause NOT to give you the ticket you want..... He may moan, he may not.....

You turn up for test on a bike with loud-pipe and small plate... NO its not DVSA-Dereck's job to MOT your bike... nor do the cops's job of enforcing RTA..... B-U-T... you still want a bit of paper off him.... and rules say bike must be road-worthy.... and legal... and with a loud pipe.. you KNOW its not.... he may, he may not.... let you take test....

But it AINT a good start... and IF you turn up for test with that 'known' risk, audibly on display..... what other little infringements did you also take to test, or ride with every day? And Is that going to endear you to DVSA Derick, and make him more of less inclined to check a 'fail' box, when you make a cone wobble as you pass, or whatever?

Your call.... your risk... and you KNOW it to be one......

Meanwhile, you have to save up for some new tools.... wouldn't that, perhaps be better use of the £100 test fees? Would putting a better padlock or whatever on the garage door, be better use of time and money, than chasing tests... on the cheap, on your own bike, you already KNOW is in the margins of the test-spec?

A-N-D... if all goes your way, and you DO get a Ride-What-You-Like 'A' out of it.... what then? You have, I assume been ignoring licence restrictions for however long, riding unrestricted 'A' bike on restricted 'A2' licence...... so what gain the licence? Oh its now legal!!! Well... give or take the 'pull-me' pipework.... otherwise little different... so what's the odds,. you dont merely want to pull the restrictor and let Ins-Co reset your riding history to nil, you want another, fill power bike... one with more power than might be restricted.... I mean you dont go take Ride-What-You-Like 'A' tests to go buy a moped, do you? So, back to the tools and the garage door... how much you pondering paying for this must have more powerful motorcycle... and STILL the tool-box is empty and the garage door swinging ajar..... so how log 'till the chains slacker than lucy-lastics nickers, or you are hopping around wondering how to do an oil change, or fretting that this new bike could be nicked from unsecure garage......

But hey.... its YOUR CALL... you have all the answers and all the reasons to do what you want.. not us.

Yeah... forget the miles, forget the money, forget the commute!
Work aint supposed to be 'fun', why should getting to and from be any?

Peak times, a world full of half awake homacidal maniacs all more worried about the boss, or the awkward customer or what the wife wanted them to pick up on the way home, gnashing on steering wheels, wishing they were some-where else and NOT looking out for motorbikes.... It is NOT a great place to go.

L-Plating!!!! Yup the L-Plate is for LEARNERS not test dodgers. IF you have what it takes to do an hours worth of tests, 15 minutres of them off-road with no other vehicles about, and the rest not at peak times, in peak traffic.. no lead to be a 'Learner'... takje tests, earn your road roon, show you know a thing or two and have the very basics of survival and MIGHT just might be able to cope with them homicidal steering wheel gnashers in the morning....

If you cant pass tests... you have VERY little good reason to try dodging them riding something with L-Plates on through THE most hazard fraught road conditions we have....

It's not the 'smart' choice, its not the 'cheap' choice, its pushing your luck, and pushing it unnecessarily further than you need to.. its an accident looking for a place to happen... and it usually does, and almost always costs money and pain in the process, so you neither save money, nor time, nor hassle, nor hurt.....

Think about it.... would you push a toddler into the Shark infested Indian Ocean and say "You'll learn! Just waver your arms a bit! You'll get it!" Would you? Or would you take them top the local swimming baths, council chlorinated, a life guard sat in a high chair at the side, and a tiled bottom you can stand on, and NO SHARKS... maybe even buy them a lesson!

BIKES!

125's.. wonderful things, thier greatest asset is cheapness... maybe. Unfortunately as they are all any-one under 19 might ride, and almost any-one can ride with bog all but sending a form off from the post office and slapping an L-Plate on it.. they tend not to be all that cheap to buy. Once bought though, the limited power does tend to limit how quickly they can wear themselves out, and normal service spares like tyres and chains can last remarkably well. Other wise they do like maintenance quite often, but that maintenance tends not to be too daunting. Insurance on the other hand can be, comparatively.

My 125, costs me more a year to insure than my 750, like for like cover, same rider, same value bike, etc etc etc..... and quite significantly more; the 750 is just under £100 a year, about £90 at last renewal... the 125, as said same level of cover, same rider, same storage etc, was I believe £145 a year...... that's around 50% MORE to insure per year than the big bike. Old git premiums mean that they are both pretty low, though, so the difference is easy to eat... if I was 17 however, be a very different story, and £1000_ premiums are not uncommon, and only go up with miles, go up with bike newness, and go up with adding, notably your entire motivation for wanting a bike, "+Commuting" into the proposal.

750 costs £90 a year to tax. !25 just £17. That almost £75 a year saving basically covers the extra 'I' have to pay on the 750's insurance.... if you have more real-world commuter quotes, it probably wouldn't even scratch it!

TYRES.... 125, weighs about 125Kg, delivers about 12bhp, and can just top 70mph... 'decent' tyres for it cost, some years ago, about £90, and have yet to wear out.... tyres for the 750.... 200Kg, 75bhp and 125mph or so, cost at least £200 a pair.... and last maybe 3ooo miles.... so typical commuter miles would beg at least a couple of pairs a year.... and unlike the 125's rubber, they cost £200+ a pair.... and now, the big bike is starting to cost big money....

And THAT is unfortunate fact of bikes; performance costs, and the bigger the bike, so the more it costs to run, and when you are limited by law to a 70mph speed limit, and on real roads, by other traffic to an awful lot less... the swings and roundabouts start to make big bikes a big burden just to massage the ego of having one, instead of something ridiculed as a kiddie bike..... if its worth it to you, though, what the heck..... could spend that money just as easily trying to loose a plastic ball down a rabbit hole or out-wit a fish... B-U-T battling them homicidal maniacs on the way to work? Is it the best value you can get from that cash?!

Somewhere there is an optimum... and its probably closer to 125 than 750... a 250 ish cc bike should have that little bit 'extra' oomph in traffic to get with thge program and maybe stay with audicoch's hogging the outside lane of the duel carriageway, but be light enough and un-powerful enough they don't need much more heavy duty or expensive service spares as a 125... but they do beg getting that licence....

AND here, you can get a full licence for a 125, the A1 entitlement. pretty cheaply; you can take tests on the 125 you buy to 'practice' wobbling around on L-Plates on your own time; you can self book the tests for about £150, and get the licence with it, often for as little as the price of a repeat CBT you'#d need to continue pretending to be a learner, trying to take on them homicidal steering wheel gnashers every day, never actually learning much, exept that falling off hurts, and costs, and them maniacs is all out to get'choo!

A 125-A1 licence, obtained DIY can make a lot of sense... but it dont give you access to the big bikes.... They pretty much demand an expensive DAS course, because you have to take them on a big-bike, you cant ride unsupervised before you have passed test, and hardly any-one will even insure or lend you to take the tests unless you do thier course first....

Courses start from maybe £600 for a three day course... if you are a fresh off the blocks absolute beginner, you likely need CBT first, and your theory test, and unlikely you will get a licence in just three days, when one day of that will be just the tests.

More realistrically, £1000-£1500 might get you a licence; and if you are London local, more likely the more expensive end, and more likely still, that you'll have to pay even more to get a course, or wait longer for one to come up..... especially right now when the sun is shining so temptingly so early in the year and every dog and thier appendagfe are sing bikes about and thinking "That looks Sooooo Cooooool!"

That upfront cost to get a licence, then can start to make the 125 option look more do-able. Fact you probably have to take a week off work to do a DAS course more so... and the notion you may dave a few 100 on the buy price of a bike, after, seem small potatoes....

BUT end of the day, that training is for LIFE not just LICENCE.. only has to same you one pretty minor spill to have paid for itself in the crash damage you dont have to pay for, let alone the hassles of pushing bent bike home, or doing it whilst bruised and bleeding!

A-N-D just cos you have taken a course and got a higher A2 or A licence, doesn't mean you HAVE to ride an A2 or A bike.... as said, I have a full ride what you like licence, and still keep a couple of 125's knocking about for variouse reasons... of which I HAVE to say, 'cheapness' isn't chief among them.... but when O/H was doing house-calls, and cranking up quite high daily miles, did make some ecconomic sense.

125 vs 500 or whatever....

First off you need the licence, thats the keystone. After that? 125's CAN be cheap...er. Big bikes Expensive.

I find the 125 is most at home round town, its light its agile, its easy to park, and the city snarl and speed limits mean that point to point its no slower, and often faster than taking the big bike that's so much more unwieldy.

On a longer run, big bike is definitely more comfortable. To hold a decebnt road speed on the 125 it begs a lot of cog stirring, and effort, and its not so nice in buffety side winds and stuff, and its saddle is smaller and harder, while it is that tad more cramped for my 6ft frame....

B-U-T more swings and roundabouts; I believed that the 125 was best about town, and horrible on longer runs. A couple of 20+ ish runs to and from the then G/F's home town, sort of confirmed that idea to me, and after a cup of coffee at her mums, I REALLY did not want to go get back on that little bike and ride another 20odd miles or more. When I was 20... that was a different matter! I toured the length and breadth of the country on a little 125, when I was on a student grant and it was best I could afford..... I was a lot younger, number and dumber then, I guess... B-U-T.... pressed to do some rather heavy duty town work on the 750.... revised my ideas, and trying to hustle that through stop start traffic, and keep 200odd Gk of iron upright and rolling.... took its toll, and it wasn't the bike that was tiring, I realised, but the riding. 250 miles at a stretch heading to a rally or meet? No problem.... you aren';t working it that hard, you arent dealing with idiots avery few yards... and THAT is what makes the difference as much as anything, NOT the size of fire hole in the engine.

26 miles each way, is going to be a chore which-ever way you try tackle it... from taking bus or train, to a moped, to a 125, to a big bike, to doing it in a limousine, with a chauffeur!!!

If that the distance twixt where you live and where you work... suck it up! There's no vehicle that will make that trip any shorter, or easier.. you just have to live with it.... and I have to say when I was commuting that sort or more mileage 3x a week... the TRAIN was wonderful..... sit back, read a book, catch up on z's, whatrever... you dont have to deal with the dolts, or wrestle a machine around... but, ultimate solution is to make the distance shorter... move or get another job... your call.

Which is where we get to on the bike issue.... 125's have merit on money.... big bikes cost big, and TBH dont offer an awful lot for that extra, no matter how much you inflate the ideas of what they should do better to justify one.... it does so much depend on your mind-set, and the route and your own aspirations, NOT on the bike.

BUT.... the critical thing in ALL of it, is whether or not its a particularly great idea, to try dodge the tests riding around on L-Plates, essentially untrained, unqualified and with only half a clue what you are about, in THE most hazard fraught road conditions, at THE most hazardouse times of day, when you ARE chucking the toddler into the shark infested waters, and hoping they'll learn to swim before they get eaten......

Get the licence... all things are possible, and ytou have got some basic know how along the way, to know better what may or may not t=be the better way to go after....

ITS YOUR CALL

But, many a slip twixt cup and lip.... the dangers are every where, you cant avoid them, its a case of managing them, AND managing them most effectively.

Doing CBT hanging and L-Plate off the back of a 125 and thinking that's job done, really just isn't.....

...get some training, get a licence....

THEN a 125 may make some sentence over a big bike, a big bike may have advantages over a 125, either way you'll be spending more money than you expect, to suffer more hassle than you imagined, and probably not getting all the enjoyment you hope for, one way or another.... welcome to life!!!!

I say it timje over time, but when you want to start biking, 'the bike' really is pretty much the last thing oin the list you need worry about.. the LICENCE is far more importrant and should be top of the list. In between, riding gear, locks chains, and other security all have a place... and when you get to the bike... it matter not an awful lot! Some may be better or worse for a certain job, but few are ever even close to ideal, and its the compromise that you, and ONLY you can decide on that matters.

Book says my 125 augt return something like 100mph. Same book, says my 750, should only return 50.
750's tank, is relatively large, holds 4.2 imperial galleons.
125's is also relatively large, for a tiddler; holds a claimed 3.7 Imperial sloops....
In theory, the 750 should give a range of about 200 miles, the 125 a range of almost 400 miles....
In PRACTICE... means squat!
Round town, neither return anywhere close to what the book says they should... depends on right wrist, frustration, trappic light GP's and road-works.....
Out of town...... it STILL depends on the right wrist, T-Junction GP's and road-works! Oh... and what mood I am in! Which is probably the more pertinant.
The 125 gets thrashed mercilessly.... that's why I keep one about! Ride the 750 like I hooligan... and I probably wouldn't end up dead... just give myself a hernia trying! 125, begs to be caned to get anything out of it, and conveniently can deliver almost all it has without breaking too many speed limits along the way.... or my small intestine!
Consequently, I tend to get worse than book from the 125, and better than book from the 750... and they BOTH average out at around 70mpg... the 125 being thrashed, the 750 tending to be used on longer runs, in rather more laid-back manner......

MEANS.... err, well there's half a clipper difference between the quoted tank size of either.... and both will be running onto reserve at around 200-250 miles.....

For where you are quibbling... well, AFAIR the MT07 has a peculiarly small tank to begin with 14liters.. what's that in English,. err... 4.5 Napoleons to a galleon... err... 2 and a half gallons, ish? Fuel winjected, it probably dont have a reserve, just an anoying lamp that blinks on the fuel guage when it gets 'low' set to come on rather concervatively not a lot beneath half full...... assuming you dont ride for best mpg, and you stuffer the sitty-snarl, what, 50ish mpg? You probably have that lamp pigging you off in around 60-70 miles from jazza... slopping over the filler cap on the fore-court..... sort of suggests a longer commute, if you have to fill every day.... b-u-t....

The issue of tank-size, probably ISN'T that much of a big deal in the greater scheme of stuff..... neither is book quoted MPG... it comes down to how you use it, and whether you get even anywhere close to that book quoted MPG, and the range of the quoted tank-size down to your tolerence for blinking lamps, and natural parania levels..... A-N-D you will probably not find a different bike, inherently solves the problem.....

For every-day commuter.... the apparently high MPG of a 125 does look good... but I rarely get it..... and get as good from a big bike I dont feel compelled to thrash as hard.... larger tank-size, for greater range, then becomes a little less critical, and how often you have to fill up... the 'REAL' issue here, it seems.... is something you either live with.... or not. Move closer to work, get a job closer to where you live, let a bus-driver worry about the fill-ups at the depot, sort of thing.

How long does it take to fill up?

Maybe 10 minutes a day, it could rather dent the time savings you expect and probably dont see taking the bike, wheretogging up either end, eats another chunk of unpaid life.... B-U-T is that less than an hour a week, more of less wasted filling a bike with fuel, than waiting for the wrong bus to turn up, or the boss to moan about your helmet hair or the puddles under your wet-weathers on the back of the door?!?!? And how much time 'really' is that compared to other 'routine maintenance' like checking the oil level, and the other stuff you probably dont, but probably should, do, like cleaning the lamps and number-plate, or de-icing the speedo on a frosty morning?

All needs putting into context, not looking at under the microscope..

THEN, is a smaller bike, with a notional and oft only presumed bigger tank and tank range, really a solution to much if anything, or just a different mix to the compromise?

That would have been a 'good' average from my VF-Thou-of excess-Yankeeness!!!!
Book only gave it 35..... I DID manage to get a over 50 out of it a couple of times on a longer gentler tour, but too and from work? Stop start snarled up traffic between WHOOO! Open by pass!!!! crack the taps and hang on.. tended to see something rather beneath book..... before having to replace squared off 'bias-belted' tyres at an alarming rate! (about £140 and a little over 1000miles at worst ISTR!) Think that the worst I ever recorded was actually less than I got from a V8 Range rover scaring single digits!!
DID have a BIG 5 and a half galleon tank though..... ISTR it took more £'s worth from empty to fill than my Ford Fiasco of the time!!!
But still... it did NOT incline me to try commuting on the genuine French Velo-Solex moped Unc had brought and restored and stacked in the shed with lots of reference to the perkiness of Audry Hepburn's breasts in knitwear......?!?!?!?!? That MAY have had me hunting out VHS video's of Roman-Holiday at the rental shop... but that's another story!!!!!!

This is not a problem of bike choice but 'expectation'.
ANY bike can be fun.... depends what you do with it....
They tend NOT to be such fun when they DON'T do what you hope or expect them to... here in lies the hint.

You want a big bike, and you want to commute on it.... which is a bad start from the off, I have to say.....

Work ent fun... if it was supposed to be fun there'd be a turnstile on the door like at a fun-park, not a clock-in machine... and they'd want you to pay them for going, not t'other way about..... So.. going to work, isn''t going to be a hoot.... first up you are only half awake, and probably dont want to be... and so are all the other baffoons on the road.... give or take the annoying bast'ds with Radio-1-DJ-Itus, who are perpetually jolly, and the law should let you SHOOT for being so bludy chirpy that early BC... Before-Cafine!!!

So, you have to deal with half awake baffoons, all seeminly not paying attension to what they are about, whilst they try remember what the missus told them not to forget before they went to sleep last night, what the boss is going to moan about them not doing, and how many awkward customers or collegues etc they are going to have to contend with, and how soon..... ALL seemingly trying to kill you..... even if you haven't displayed Radio-1-DJ-Itus..... This is very NOT 'Fun'.

Dealing with that on a moped, isn't hoing to be very much more or less fun than trying to deal with it on an R1... the paranoia will still be every where, it will just shift where the frustration lies......

Come the Week-end... NOW you can have 'fun'... it's your own time, go do what you like with it.....

But STILL... public roads are just that; they aren't a free-for-all play-ground or race track... they are STILL not supposed to be where you have 'fun'... that's what theme parks and massage parlours were invented for.....

And many many ways to have 'fun', with or without a motorbike......

My personal preferred masochism with a motorcycle was competition trials.... wonderful sport, and about the cheapest motor-sport you can take part in. You can buy a bike to do it on for under a grand, and it dont have to be the latest must have hot-snot bit of tackle raved about in the magazines, or even close.... as it's not a test of speed, the bikes dont have to be highly tuned, or highly strung, and so tend not to get thrashed to death in a season, or become obsolete before the stickers go out of fashion....

These were all significant sales features for the persuit when I was a school-boy... they still hold true now.....

Next up; different clubs have different schemes; but you need join one, and you need get an ACU 'Trials' licence through them; and then you pay an entry fee and turn up and ride.... you dont need a private medical exam like road-racing nor do you need competition insurance like Moto-X, you just need the Club membership, ACU ticket and an entry.... for a 12 event 'season' with one club, you are still only looking at something like £180 or so, before travel and fuel and fixing bent foot-pegs.... it REALLY dont come much cheaper than this, and you DONT need an MOT, you dont need road traffic act complient insurance, you dont need road-tax, it really is, cheap and easy, and you dont HAVE to go to an event if you or the bike is too battered bruised or banged up.... B-U-T you get five or six hours of pure 'Fun' saddle time for your money, and no paranoia about yellow boxes or SMIDYs along the way....

NOW! I had to run a car anyway. Taking the road-bike off the road, and SORNING it... saved me my entire trials costs, competing with two clubs, once a fortnight, and doing wild-card entries with others and or practice days or sesions when I had the inclination, for am entire years, plus some... in fact just taking "And Commuting! of the bike insurance would probably have covered the costs of all the entries!

A-N-D I took the car to work... beat up old Montego, as it happens... but who cares... it was 'cheap' and I saved more money to go trialzin with it... and stayed warm and dry and didn't get helmet hair on the way to work... NO.... not much 'fun'... but then neither is dodging SMIDYs in the rain, before full quota of cafine!!!

And that's the point.... seperate the variables... dont try bagging up SO many hopes and aspirations and expectations into ONE vehicle, as a Jack-of-All-Trades that you set up ONLY to fail somewhere along the line.... either costing too much on the commute; not delivering the fun on the week-ends and or and or, where ever, in all the thing syou are hoping the thing will do for you.

You want a commuter.... nope... you NEED to get to work... Is a motorbike, ANY motorbike the best way to do that? What is the most cost effective, or time effective way of doing that? SOD the 'FUN' its never going to be even slightly, if you HAVE to do it every day, along with a gazillion other baffoons, Before Caffeine!

NOW.. that 'need' parked.. FUN! What do you think of as Fun? Whats the best way to get it? How much would that cost? And IS... and do think long and hard about this.. does it really need to involve a motorcycle at all?

It ISN'T about the bike... it really isn't... its about your aspirations and expectations, and how you value your lesire time and disposeable income.....

In a similar manner, I had a colleague a number of years ago who's favoured persuiy was Scuba-Diving.... I cant remember the name of the place, national dive center in an old quarrey near Leicester the Scrap-Heap people dumped a couple of Mini's in for one of thier shows.... but that was where He and his G/F were to be found every week-end, and other time they didn't have to go to work... UNTIL, he had a wibble, and griped that they were looking at the same 'shit' in the same muddy water 'all the time', and wouldn't it be nice to see that reef and all the exotic fish in Australia, that was in one of their hobby mags.... A-N-D.. for going quantity for quality...pair of them did a whole-scale audit of the house-hold finances; they got rid of one of the cars, and the HP installements on it; replaced the other with a banger to get rid of the installements on that; cut out a load of stuff they didn't actually enjoy all THAT much.... and 'lived' for three diving holidays in clear, warm, tropical waters, with real colourful fish instead... A-N-D I recall saved the money to get married out of the deal too! Though thier honey-moon was in Egypt, and mostly under-water......

THIS is the sort of thinking, and you dont have to go to that kind of extreme... BUT the 'fun' is not a property of the motorcycle... its in your aproach to the persuit, and your expectations and aspirations, and THEN how you choose to draw the circle to get as much fun inside the line as you can for your money.....

Many many ways to do that.... one obviouse one is two bikes. One for the daily grind, one for the week-end. Taking hack miles off the week-end play-thing; taking "Plus Commuting" off its insurance policy, but more significantly taking lots and lots of probably very expensive miles wearing out expensive consumeables to square off tyres so they aren't great come the week-end, can save more than enough money to justify the second bike, and its road-tax and lower "Lesure use Only" insurance.. the fun bike also doesn't have to be dependable, so you dont need fret about getting something ultra new and under warranty; or paying high main stealer service costs to maintain that warranty... if it dont work... to me... more fun playing spanners! Daily 'Hack' can be just that, as long as it does the job of getting you to work, and it can even be a car! WHICH could haul a 'fun-bike to track days or trials, or whatever....

Back up... look at the bigger picture, and DONT try cram so many aspirations and expectations into one machine, that like as not can ONLY fail in fulfilling even a portion of them, a portrion of the time....

Get the expectations and aspirations into check... remember that the 'fun' is not in the bike, but what you do with it, and work, and going to work, is NOT supposed to be fun....

THEN see what you got, and where it takes you.

Heck.. a battered old C90, you dont have to fret about being nicked, or wearing out expensive tyres, or getting scratched or kicked over in the car-park, is a LOT of fun, wafting past petrol stations! It ONLY has to get you too and from work.... and if you have money spare in your pocket for the theme parks or massage parlours, that could be the most 'fun' you can get for the money you don't spend getting frustrated in the daily grind.... going to and from work...

It's NOT in the bike... its in your thinking....

[Ste]

Ponder that, rather than the bike-brochures, looking for an unattainable utopia.....

What do you mean 'still' ride a moped? Just because that's the first motor-vehicle any-one becomes eligible for by age, doesn't mean that a( you have to have one, b) start on one.

If you have been riding one for umpety years on L-Plates, though that is something for me to grumble about..... L's for LEARNER not test-dodger!!

Oh-Kay... so, you are 20 years old, and want to leap from something almost as fast as a fit-kid on a push-bike..... to as much as you can get on one go...... right.....

First up, Ninja 300's etc.... FORGET IT...... for now.... when it comes to getting a motor-bike, when you dont have a licence.... the bike is actually the very last thing you need, or need worry about.

Top of the list is that licence.... remember L-for-Learner......

If you are young enough to have not been awarded AM licence entitlement for passing a car test umpety decades ago, then you will, have had to take a Compulsary-Basic-Training (CBT) course at some point to ride a moped on L's.... which suggests you aren't starting completely at the start.... also suggests you probably have some gear like a crash hat, and possibly some clue as to other essentials like Insurance and Tax and stuff, probably even the usefulness of water-proofs, and a dang good lock and chain.....

BUT these are all things way ahead of a bike, in the list of things you 'need'.... and still ahead of any bike you may hang an L-Plate on, is that licence.....

Theory... double check on that it IS the Theory/Hazard test for a MOTORCYCLE that you have booked? Not one for a car... that wont count towards a motorcycle test-set one bit....

Next up... you need a valid CBT or DL196 certificate..... so if you haven't got one, cant find it, or its ran out of validity.... go sort.. means talking to schools.

CBT is the only mandatory bit of training any-one has to take; entirely possible to take tests for A1 - 125 only licence entitlement, A2 'restricted' motorcycle entitlement or unrestricted 'A' without going through a school....

Its a lot easier to do the A1-125 tests that way, and it only costs the DSA test fees, something in the order of £125 including the Theory... buyt you have to have a bike, that's road legal and meets test requirements.... as said, easy on a 125, as you are allowed to ride one of them on L's unsupervised before passing tests...... A2 and unrestricted A-Bikes you are not.... you must be under supervision of a card carrying DSA approved instructor to ride one on L's.... which means you practically have to go through a school to do the tests for these licences.. little niggle of insurance companies being loath to give you insurance for a bike you don't have a licence for, also sort of makes life awkward to go-it-alone, for the higher licence entitlements....

WHICH brings us round in a circle..... IF you have to dive in determined to go as big as you can... you need a licence, that begs a course, you need talk to schools..... how much, how long, when, where, and whats the deal for lunch! THAT really is about all there is to it....

Till you have done that... booked a course, done it, learned a bit, been stuck in for tests, and passed them..... everything else is all pretty much academic......

GO TALK TO BIKE SCHOOLS!!!!

You want to know what they expect you to have, bis a motorcycle Theory/Hazard pass cert before you turn up; what gear they deem essential, by way of whether they expect you to have your own crash hat and glove and wet-weathers, or what they may provide; What the course costs are, and what they include... some include the test fees, others dont; what's the deal on further training or re-tests? Some have fixed course price, and you do or you dont, if you dont, you pay for a whole new course, or further training or accompanied test/lessons on an hourly, probably much higher rate..... so ask the awkward questions... and ask what the lunch arrangements are... do you need to make sandwhiches, or do they stop at the instructors favourite road-side butty bar etc.

And DO you really need/want to do an A2 licence test?

Often suggested that the A1-125 only tests are a 'waste of time', but, as they can be done on a bike you can ride on L's, DIY and cost a relative pittance to take, I believe that if ANY tests are a waste of time, it is actually the A2 tests...... they beg the same costs and hassle by way of a school, course and hire-bike to take them, as tests for an unrestricted 'A' licence.. which can be pricey, and get very much more so, if you do need further-training and or re-tests...... and if you want the unrestricted A eventually, you have to re-do, and re-pay.... which is all rather irksome to get the licence to NOT get the tarmac rippling performance of a full quota 'big-bike', in that five year window that the A2 licence has much if any relevence......

Hint: big bikes cost big money... they use more fuel, they eat tyres at an alarming rate, and whether you use the performance they offer or not, they demand the levels or maintenance comensurate with that performance..... and when we have a 70mph max speed limit in this country most 125's can achieve, and a lot more speed limits below that they can break along the way...... its a LOT of money to spend for not a lot more than the bragging rights of having a bigger number on the side-panel.....

There are a lot of good reasons why a bigger bike may be more useful or appropriate.... B-U-T there are far far more that are almost entiurely ego driven...... so how much do you REALLY need a bigger bike...... and how much REALLY is that worth to you? And probably more pertinently... do you have that sort of money to spare for it?

For cheap get-to-work wheels, a moped, or 125... DOESN'T have to be ridden on L-Plates.... infact that is daft when the repeat CBT to perpetually pretend to be a learner is as much as just doing the damn tests and being done with it! The bikes are over-priced, and the insurance is silly, especiually for a younger rider... but, tax is only £17 a year or something daft; the MPG you get can be fantastric, and service spares are relative peanuts.... for comparison, a pair of tyres for my 750 cost about £200, and they last maybe 4-5ooo miles depending on how I ride the thing..... If I cranked up average annual miles of 6K that would mean at least one if not two or three sets of tyres a year....... on the 125... the tyres cost barely £100 a pair, for a good sticky set, and they last.... well, if I ever wear a pair out I'll let you know! You can realistically expect around 10-15ooo miles from them, and ironically get more miles out of the rock-hard ecconomy brands... that's three times the miles or more for half the price or less... and the costs translate to everything else.... like brake pads and spark-plugs and stuff.

So.... you pay a heck of a lot more to do the same miles on a bigger bike..... probably no faster..... after you have spent a lot more to get the licence, which you will loose that much faster if you try to go any faster and use that performance the bigger bike may have.... and an A2 one only just does.......

Which brings us to the bottom line.... Can you afford it, and IS it really worth it?

A2 courses start from around £600... which may or may not include the test fees..... budget around £1000 to be realistic, and add half as much again for contingency, if you don't pass in a week as you hope....

Then you may start to think about actual bikes..... and again, whats the imperatives, and can you afford it?

Once you have passed the tests, you have the choice... and you are a qualified rider..... there is no best choice starter bike..... you dumb enough to ride like an idiot, you gonna get hurt..... you smart enough to be sensible, the bike dont matter much..... its down to you..... all that really changes is how much you pay along the way......

So... go talk to the schools... ask the impertinant question about what thier fees cover and what the catches may be if the 'Sure! We'll get you through in a week!" optimism isn't quite born out in reality.....

THEN... with a licence in your pocket, and some better ideas of what is and isn't more or less important, you may go bike shopping..... if you have the money... which is where it starts, and ends.... everything in the middle is not so significant, really.

Prices can vary from as little as £500 to over £1500... for an 'advertised' course... which could be 3 to 5 days.

B-U-T it's the wrong question really...

You are a car driver.... oh dear, dont expect to be any further ahead of the game than a fresh faced absolute beginner.... You will have car driver head on.... what you already know, and worse, probably what you 'think' you know can hold you back as much as shove you on.

You have ridden some dirt bikes..... again... so you know where the gear-lever is and how a clutch works... you done your CBT this, again, isn't any sort of garantee you will find a fast track to a full bike licence....

You have ridden a bit on CBT and 125... fan-tastic.... why aint you got a licence already? More again... CBT is basic training, the first lesson, supposedly so you can go practice for tests, not dodge them till you decide to take a crash-course...... 125ing, is good, I have to say, little bikes are more demanding to ride, they tend not to flatter a rider and cover thier mistakes like a big-bike will... B-U-T spend too long on one, and all you take away from the thing is a permenant scowl, and a cranked right wrist, from holding the throttle wide open the whole time, worse conviction that';s HOW you need ride... and a bunch of probably bad habbits that wont help you pass tests... especially if you haven't had any correctional lessons since CBT.

To wit, its a piece of string question.. depends on what your expectations are, and what you think you are paying for.... lessons for life skills, or lessons for licence? Two are not necessarily one and the same.... Then how quick a learner you are, and how much ignorance and baggage you take to the lessons.....

Think you know it all 'cos dirt-bikes, 'cos cars, cos 125's, and you ARE likely to need more lessons to kick that belligerence out of you, and probably a switch of school cos you fall out with the instructor you spend more time arguing with than listening to.....

So it REALLY is down to you... you pays your money and takes your chances.....

Costs are aprox £200 a day, 'ball-park'... how many days is down to you, and 3-day courses are often hoplessly optimistic, given tests will take out one of them days, and it'll take a day to get your level, and get you comfy/familiar with school bike. Some, if they are lucky and up to speed may ince it in that short a time, but many more will need 'further training'... and find that costs sprial as they have to pay by the day, or pay for many more full days over the aparently low-cost-course in the add....

Like I said, it's the wrong question.... questions should be, how much do the schools charge 'per-day' for training; what's the deal over hiring school-bike for tests; what's ths school's regime for booking tests for students? Are test fees incluided in the course cost, or are they an extra, and what's the school admin charge for 'block-booking' a test on your behalf, rather than letting you book, and pay yourself, and then book a test-lesson and rental for that apointment; More still... what are the catering arangements? Do they stop at a pub for snap, or expect you to bring sandwiches? What gear do they provide, and or insist on? If you book an all inclusive course, and fail a test.... whats the re-book deal? Some let you book test/lessons just to re-do a Mod 1.. which you have to pass to do a Mod2... so if you fail Mod 1, is that game over? Do they suspend training till you have rebooked and got it? Or do they insist on a complete new course, all in...

A-N-D on that note.. what about Theory-Haz... you may have done one for a car licence... its a different test for a motor-cycle, you will have to take it, and pass it to get a licence, and many schools wont start training you until you have done and passed it, on your own, before booking road-training... others will.. but another sticky-whicket, to get over before they can book Mod tests, for you or put you in on block-bookings... so can be a 'stoppa' to the whole deal.

But still a piece of string question, and still, pretty much the wrong one.... how much and how long.. is not the main deal here... may be to you, if you just wanbt a licence in a hurry.... but that aproach likely to lead to pain in the long run... physical or financial, one way or another....

My advice.. get off the net; go round the houses, try and speak to schools face-t-face; find out what thier operating practices are; look for the hidden pit-falls, and remember, buy cheap, buy twice.... then, recalibrate perceptions, sort the lunch-box, and go for the lessons with a completely open mind, NOT assuiming that because var, or because dirt-bikes, or because 125 you know ANY more or will progress any faster than some-one who has never looked at a bike or car in thier life!! You may, but treat that as bonus, rather than the other way round where the hang-up will be a draw-back.

Three catagories of licence; three sets of tests;
"A1" licence, for 125 'only'
"A2" licence for 45bhp 'middle-weight'
"A" licence, for any motorcycle
You need, to pass the Theory/Hazard test for a motorcycle for all.
Mod 1 & Mod 2 practicals are the self same tests/excersises for all three licences, only difference is the ~DVSA requirements for the bike you take tests on. ie a bike complient with, and meeting power and weight requirements for licence as set by DVSA.
For ANY test to count towards a licence, you need the full set, and Mod1 & Mod2 must be passed under the same 'sceme'; Ie you cant do Mod 1 on a 125 and try count the pass towards doing Mod2 on a 600.

Tests, self booked are cheap; at last count, I think it was £120 ish for a set of all three... buy you have to provide test complient bike to take tests on and get iot there before you have licence to ride it... for A2 and A this begs using a school to hire you a compiant bike, and mother-duck you to the test center on it. This comes expensive, usually around the £150-£200 mark per test, If you only book accompanied test-lessons, on thier own, either to dodge cost of full course (if school will give test/lesson to a student who hasn't done a full course with them) or cos you failed the test that was included in the course.

Hint: DAS be expensive.. and failing DAS tests gets very so..... ALL to feed the ego to NOT ride a 125... which can go as fast as anything else is legally allowed in this country, and breakl a lot of speed limits along the way..... they ent toys, and you face same padlocks on the roads on one as you do a big-bike....

If you still have your own 125, and can ride it on L-Plates... absolutely no reason you cant, and shouldn't go for the A1 tests for a 125-only licence, DIY... self book, pay I think it's £15 fror the Mod1, and £75 for the Mod2....

If you fail the Mod1.. its a dang cheap lesson, and examiner tells you wot you dun wrong... most likely let the nerves get top you... stay calm, dont get cocky, listen to what you are told to do, and do it... shouldn't be a big deal... If you fail Mod2.. its still a cheap lesson! Not as cheap, but hey! Still get told wot you dun wrong at the end, and still good chance that test nerves will be main culpret. Book do, get the full-licence in your pocket..... if you have 125 there's no reason not do or to have pigged around with a wobbly-cam to not do so far... (no I didn't look for V-Logs, and wont.. I'd rather be on my bike, watching out for real padlocks, than some-one elses, second hand through a bendy semi-fish-eye lens and stuttering sensor!)

Pass tests on your 125 on your own, and you get full bike licence, and know for sure you can pass tests.... this is big boon when it comes to talking to schools, and trying to convince them of your confidence you 'only' need a couple of days training.... licence sort of proves it... you CAN and have passed tests once over... its just doing it on a bigger, heavier more powerful bike... and you only need the training time to get the weight and measure of such to go do tests on it; you shouldn't go to jelly on test, or make daft mistakes trying to put on a show for the examiner... it's not your first rodeo....

So, all good stuff, and good way to keep costs in hand IF you already have bike, and gear and tax and insurance on it.. and it isn't so obviousely bike-larf wannabe you will be marked down before you even begin!

As said, I no watch wideo... so no comment.. If I wanted to watch roads through a glass screen I'd drive car!!!! FFS I wear open hat and spex, so I dont have to suffer the letter-box effect!

You have a 'provisional' licence.

What they want to know is how long you have held the entitlement you have.

Answer is that:-
- you have held provisional moped entitlement from the date the licence was issued.
- you have held provisional motorcycle entitlement from the date you became eligible for it... your 17th birthday

when you pass tests, you will gain FULL licence entitlement, and THAT entitlement starts on the date you passed your final 'test'...

ie; it zero's the clock, you do NOT carry over any time you were riding on a provisional.

It is a 'provisional' licence entitlement granted ahead of tests, and none BUT 125cc motorcyclists are ALLOWED to ride or drive on thier own ahead of tests!

Might be clearer if we used the American terminology; where they have a Driving licence after you have passed your test, but until then you have a 'Learner's Permit'..

Ow-Kay.. focusing on aesthetics alone...... then....

NOTHING looks good with L-Plates... how much the cost, over used YBR and an A1 licence?

No one will give a toss when they try knock you off, HOW 'cool' you merely 'think' you look.... so which is cheapest?

Sod the 'look' worry about who actually LOOKS!

Personally, I say get the Sinnis... it's orange.... we won't be able to miss you when you are pushing it up the pavement.... either 'cos its broke, a-ga-yne, or you has bin knocked off... a-gay-yne.... either way, makes it easier for us to point and laugh and say I told you so be compassionate, non piss-taking groan-ups and... well, spot you and snigger.. hey, chinky bike and a looser-plate, A-N-D pretensions over 'aesthetics' WHAT do you expect FFS?!?

Your call.... as they say, fool and his money soon parted....

Very-Oh-Dear-Oh.. (Veradaro)... It was, when it was listed in the brochures... like the CG a decade ago, just about THE most expensive 125 on the market... and it sold, in relatively big numbers for an ultra-over-priced and under-powered four-stroke 125, rather like the old 250 Super-Dream, back in the 250 Learner days, on a) being an 'onda, b) being 'big' and c) 'LOOKING' like it is bigger than it is.....

I've been shouted at by the Vera-fan-club, for dissing the thing, BUT.... at twice the price of a CBF125 when they were side by side in the show-room.... they were not twice the bike, they did not have twice the performance, twice the reliability or twice the longevity.... you did get a 'bit' more oomph for your cash, but on bikes with so little to start with, that's pretty small potatoes; they have fared a bit better than cheaper offerings as they have aged... nut not that much. A lot of the look is down to large expanses of easy to clean plastic, that hides manky mechanics as they get mankier... what, if anything has saved them so much rot, IMO is that so expensive in the show-room to start with, most were bought by more mature 'learners'.. kids with the credit rating or Daddy-Account to buy that far up the market bought an Aprillia, that could be quick for the cash; The Vera was never going to be, and their usually older owners didn't tend to rag them so badly, and frequently handed them back to the franchise dealer to change the oil and stuff!

NOW... youngest of what's out there is a decade old, and that's tail-end second chance life-span for a learner-bike. That age has seen a lot drop into teen-ager pocket money price territory, and they have started to suffer the bodgery other learner bikes tend to.... do we mention the infamous welded on sprocket case? lol!

And they are NOT bikes that can easily be bodged like that! Under all that body-work, is an expensive and intricate bit of machinary, with two cylinders to be bothered about, inconveniently in a V arrangement to make getting at stuff more awkward... especially exhausts, that by now are rotted to heck, and expensive to replace.... but hey.... all that body-work hides the gum-gum and halfords exhaust bandages dont it?!?

At tag end of service life? IMO they are a money-pit in waiting; that should be avoided... if you can afford a good'n, and know how to spot a good'n... you wouldn't be looking, REALLY... with that sort of savvy, you'd be buying a 3-year old MOT fresh YBR.. using it to get a full licence and get to work, doing only what you have to to preserve usefulness and resale, and flogging on as soon as you can get something 'better' for the money, earned NCB and hopefully licence acquired along the way.

The Veradero, was not a bad bike... it was, all told probably a pretty good one... when brand new... but it was over-priced then.... a decade or more on, they have not fared well, and they do NOT IMO represent a great bet for any-one starting out in the wonderful world of biking.

The Chinks...... are probably unfortunately the present and future of 125 motorcycles.... This includes the Yamaha YBR built in China.

Interesting to note, that having stepped into the void left by the collapse of the British Bike industry forty years ago, after they retreated into the more lucrative 'big-bike' sectors, and left the utility small bike market to the Italians, and then the Japanese, before they all went Belly up round Brum..... forty years on, and the Japanese, faced with higher labour rates as they come out of post-WWI reconstruction, a depressed US cash-cow market not giving the cream it used to, and increasing ecconomic pressures as world wide banking starts to 'pinch' and subsidized 'development loans' are withdrawn.. the Japanese manufacturers have, like the Brits 40-odd years ago, retreated into the more lucrative 'Big-Bike' markets.... where they appear to have been dumbing down a lot, and making a lot of 21st centuiry twins.... you know, plastic Bonavilles..... to maintain profit margins, whilst oh! Like the brits 40 years ago... 'resting on their laurels' as far as pushing the boundaries any further, as they did in the 80's.... however, as far as the tiddlers go, there has been a concerted effort by the Japs, to 'devolve' production of the to outside Japan, into lower-labour regions.

Honda probably got the ball rolling, oooh, thirty or more years back; buying Italian and Spanish manufacturers and slowly taking them over, to build NS125's in Italy, and melody mopeds in Spain... and CBF's in India. But migrating the CG125, first to Brazil, then China... where others have followed.... Like Yamaha and the YBR. Suzuki? A lot of the small-bore offerings are made in Portugal or in Tiwan, and more are badged out to other 'partner' manufacturers.... and Kawasaki, just seem to have given up making small bikes all together!

There's NOT really a lot of store in a Japanese Brand-Name, anymore; it hasn't for a quarter century or more meant the bike was actually built in Japan or subject to Japan QC control and build standards...

And the choice for a 17 year old of today? Well, if it's new it will likely be Chinese!!! Second Hand... it will STILL likely be Chinese! Little in the 125 sector is lucky to survive much longer, and anything that old, is still hobson's choice, with however many potential numpty learner owners welding chuffing sprockets on the out-put shaft and shit!#

Which means... its Chineser fake-away... or err... Chinese fake-away... or pasta.... which of course is Chinese noodle..... with oragano, and a latin trained chef!

Short answer is there's no really 'good' answer... and of the Chinky offerings the genuine Yamaha YBR is probably as close to the safe bet as there is...... with the wops..... as ever, seems to be paying your money... usually quite a lot, and taking your chances.... only solace being that when it works, it will probably work quite a bit better..... and will certainly look better when pushing it home!

In modern A1 world.... its horrible to admit, BUT the 'smart-money' would be, to do probably what the beuroprats would like us to; But a Chinese twist and Go Scooter, and treat it like a washing-machine; ride it for as long as the variator belt lasts, and or CBT validity, then scrap it as cheaper to buy-new than fix; by which time, either be old enough to get a higher licence, or have given up and got a car, so we can pay the extra taxes!!!

You know I am NOT a pessimist by nature.,... I'm an optimist, disillusioned TOOO many times!!! Lol.

Once upon a time, bikes came in five capacities; The three 'racing' capacities were 250 'lightweight', 350 'junior' and 500 'senior' anything less than a 250 was a tiddler, anything over 500 a side-car hauler. For the most part, bikes were singles; they were cheaper to build, lighter on the track, and easier on fuel and maintenance. And then came the 650's....

In the post WWII consumer boom, US market demanded ever bigger-better-faster-more, and the Brit-Twin, was stretched from 350/500 to 650 to meet the demand.

As UK roads got tarmaced, we saw the rise of the ton-up-lads, who could buy a 650 on tick. So what they didn't handle like a Velocette 'sporting-single', the new roads were wider, flatter and longer than any race track, and the 650's were 'fast'.... although even in my youth, contrary to opinion, not soooooo long ago, folk still grumbled that anything bigger was only fit to haul a chariot, and you may as well buy a car!

But that attitude saw the UK motorcycle market shrink, as the Japanese offered ever bigger-better-faster-more techno-marvels.... and sold shed loads of 'tiddlers'... licence laws encouraged.

By 1980, the hi-po two-strokes that has seen 250 'learner-bikes' challenge the old guard 650 Brit-Twins for performance. To stay ahead in the game, the 350's had become 400's, the 500's 550's, and in 1986, Kawasaki badges its new water-cooled GPz600 a 600, to mark the difference between the air-cooled 550 'fours' and the 650 'twins'. They co-incidentally launched the GPz900R, creating the 600 and litre classes that have become familiar.

Meanwhile... racing regulations were written around the bikes sold to fold for the road; racing inspired new road bikes, and so the circle perpetuated hardening the 'new' 600 and liter classes.....

Until recently.....

What has 'happened' to the 'six-'undreds'?

Well, around 1997, Kawasaki launched an all new 600 'sports' designed to win 600 class production racing; the ZX6-R. AFAIK it was the first 600 class road bike to claim 100bhp, previously the preserve of full liter machines..... a-n-d the decline set in.

The techno-race of the 80's was over. The defacto-standard was a water-cooled 'four' with double-over-head-cams, in a box-section frame, covered in body-work. In the cash-cow US markey, 'factory-customs', over-the-counter harley-esque 'cruisers' outsold sports bike by an enormous margin; in continental Europe, 'Paris-Dakar' replica dirt bikes, similarly outsold everything else, and the 'race-replica' was becoming ever more irrelevant.

Y2K emmisions controls, along with the gold-seam of easily mined technology, and economic pressure on Japan to stop exploiting subsidized manufacturing investment to keep product-prices artificially low in export markets, saw a departure from bigger-better-faster-more marketing.

People weren't buying bigger-better-faster-more motorcycles any-more; they were buying more reasonably priced and more road-usable 'all-rounders' like Bandits and Diversions....

Emission regs hard-hitting the year-on-year power increases of strict-displacement classes, and demand for those machines to be a lot more 'rounded' and road feindly. 500 'commuter-twins' grew, gradually from 500cc to 650, and the 600 'super-sports' followed suit...

So endeth the era of the 'six 'undred'.

THAT is what happened to them. The artificial capacity 'class' just evolved into irrelevance.

In 1980, a 'good' Brit-Twin may have offered 60-65bhp. 25 years on, and that curiously is STILL about the sort of power you might get from something like an SV650 or ER6.. just in a very much more 'civilized' homogenized shrink-wrapped TV dinner package.... it's still more than enough power to break the still the same UK speed limits with inordinate ease... how much is 'enough'?

What do you Do?

You have the 'Ride-What-You-Like-Licence'.. you ride what you like!!!! Everything is 'restricted' to 70mph in this country by GATSO cameras... so what do you 'want'?

IF I wanted a razor edges, full on, no compromises 'sports' bike, these days, I would pick a last of the line, unrestricted 125, like a Mito or Aprillia!!! They only have 30bhp or so, its enough to just about achieve a genuine 100mph, but demand a lot of work from the rider to get it, so very rewarding when you do! (if actually getting there without shooting following traffic with piston-ring shrapnell, isn't enough!)

On the public roads, just about anything with more and bigger holes where fire happens, will just make achieving those sort of speeds a heck of a lot easier, and hence less rewarding, less 'fun', to my mind.

I ride a 750... a very old 750, its a pretty universal all-round motorcycle... and thanks to the 600 vs liter class-controversy actually cheaper to insure than either! There's little real correlation between capacity and performance these days, anyway; there are 600's that make more power than many liter-plus machines; performance depends more on their intended application or the style that looks best in the brochure; so its a very 'useful' machine, I can ride all day, and two-up without getting clouted around the crash-hat by a scrunched-up pillion bunny, OR have a 'bit' of more spirited fun on the lanes on a summer's evening.. if I don't get frustrated by sports-bike riders squidding between corners, believing that how much thier arms hurt from hanging on during warp-speed acceleration and rubber wall breaking, between bends is indication of how much of a riding ace they are!

So, you have a RTWYL-Licence... ride what you like..... takes-your-pick and pays your-money!

That would have been in 1997 on an Aprillia 125!!!!!!!

Admittedly, with a kart-tuned Rotax propelling it, it probably put out between 45 & 55bhp, depending how long they reckoned they had before they could afford to shoot spectators with piston-ring shrapnell!

Still, the suggestion hardly sets the bar very high.... with a claimed 44bhp, the Yamaha 535 Viagra 'cruiser' can probably justifiably claim to have as much power as Rossi's first World-Championship bike!

When Honda launched the CBR900RR in '93, that's pretty much what folk said about it; Who'll buy a bored out 750 that's not eligible for 750-class racing, and down on power to the litre-plus class bikes?

Similar argument was leveled at the 650-Brit-Twins, that were too big for the then current 500 'blue-ribbon' race class. Folk still bought them; then after buying them, they had to invent a class for those that wanted to race them!

It's a diverting double-ended Llama, really.

Of note, though the earliest 'Race-Replicas' were bikes like the Norton Manx or 'International', of the 1930's; models strategically claimed to be a 'replica' of the works race-bike of the last season, sold over-the-counter to any-one in the street with cash, who 'might' go race one.

The modern 'Race-Replica', probably traces it's ancestry back to Suzuki's '84 GSXR750, claimed then to be a road-going replica of their endurance racer, and the same era Yamaha RD500 & Suzuki's RG500 'GP-Replicas'.

Rather ironic to my mind that the GSXR was launched as the 'ultimate' Cafe-Racer.. at the end of an era when folk had bought over-the-counter road bikes; slapped rear-sets and clip-ons on them, and maybe a token fly-screen fairing to make them look like a 'racer'..... then when they got something done for them, by the factory, what did they do? Strip off the fairings, slap on high Renthal MX bars, to make it like a road-bike again, and called it a street-fighter!?!?!? There's nowt-queer-as-folk! As they say!!!

The cult of the Gixxer, though, probably shows how as the shear performance excess of over-the-counter production models grew, so the relevance of the 'racer-for-the-road' wayned.

I'm 6'2"-ish with 34" inseam.... I ride.... a 125! Oh, and a CB Seven-Fifty.... with three-inch over-length shocks..... I chose, or should that be it chose ME, my VF1000, oooh, twenty odd years back, when I sat on it, and it was the only darn thing that actually 'fitted'... curiousely a 32" seat WASN'T what did it, but a long 'reach' to the bars.... Which I mention, because it is pretty much the case, you just HAVE to kiss a lot of frogs and see what fits; you can't do it on the numbers and you can't do it on other folks reccomends... they dont have to ride the ruddy thing!

And blow the pre-conceptions.... adventure sports and real dirt bikes, because they have high saddles in the show room... mean squat... The Jockish Hobbit FFS rides one, and he's knee high to a haggis!

When it comes to off-roady type bikes, the tall seat is deceptive. They have tall seats because the bike's tend to be jacked up on a foot of suspension.... which squashes as soon as you sit on the thing..... at which point how far your bum is from the floor depends how heavy you are, and how scrunched your legs, on how far from the seat the foot-pegs are... and for off-roadie ground clearance, the seat to foot-peg distance tends to be shorter than on a regular road bike; they lift the pegs as well as the saddle! More influential, I think is that wide off-roadie bars stretch you out side-ways which makes the 'reach' to them seem longer than it actually is, and again, is deceptive.. and then we get to seat widths, and off-roadie stylie tend to have narrow saddles which dont spread your legs so much and make the reach and stretch seem smaller... helps shorties, does not mean better for lankie-gits like uz!

To wit... try-before-you-buy, and DONT assume anything....

Other-ways-about, so many shorties, and particularly woman, err towards cruisery things because of the 'low' seat height, and again; works backwards; the low slung saddle, doesn't mean that you can flat-foot both sides, when you have a sofa for a saddle, complete with buttons under your bum, and foot-pegs are in the next county some-where infront of the engine... oh.. and bars so wide, lift you out the sofa, and make you lean the wrong way to turn! It IS all perverse4 and not necesserily as looks would suggest.

CB Seven-Fifty and three-inch over-lengths? This does NOT make it any more comfy.... it actually sits so high that the center stand barely lifts the back wheel off the floor, while the foot-pegs are still as far from the seat... actually they aren't.... Little bother 'helpfully' had the notion to move it on the drive so step-dad could take the dogs out... err... yeah.... he'd done his See-Bee-Tea... on other little bother's moped.... I DONT think he expected it to weigh 200Kg.... so he dropped it and smashed the foot-peg hanger..... in the repair.... I made up new hangers and shifted pegs back about two inches and up one.. We use a pair of axle stands and moved them around until I was sort of comfy... then THAT'S where we welded the new pegs! Point is 'Adaptation may be required'... and not necessarily because of your length of leg.. as much as anything, that was done to suit the way I rode the thing, and getting boots out the way of tilting tarmac!!! But still...

As said, I also ride a 125 Super-Dream... its fun to rag the crap out of something..... and that is very much smaller and incredibly neutral, and to be brutally honest as far as the erganomics go, it is probably as comfy as the Seven-Fifty.. which begs suggestion that NEUTRAL ERGONOMICS WORK!

I dont much like sports bike on the road, and erganomics of them are even more perverse than most offerings, and certainly not well suited to door frame butters... They tend to have pretty short wheel-bases, which put the bars very close to the bum-slot, which itself tends to not be very comodiouse, and then they stick the foot-pegs some-where that sticks your heels in your arse crack.. B-U-T again, thats on pre-conceptions.... some are not 'so' bad....

But, if you want to start from generalities, the conventional street-bike come tourer, 'style' is the most neutral, and your best starting point, and as likely to fit as well or better than anything you 'think' on first glance, and flat-foot on the show-room, might fit better or worse... like I said, you have to kiss a lot of frogs.

REMEMBER... you buy a bike to ride, not straddle outside the wine-bar... how far bum-be-from-floor matters not a lot... when riding, what matters is bum to foot-rests, you only put feet down when stopped, and IF you remember your CBT, and the 'Safety-Position' ONLY ONE, the left.. right should be covering or applying back brake.. how far away the floor of little consequence, you just tilt more or less when at rest... as for flat-footing to manouver the thing? Again, CBT advice GET OFF!!!! No bike between you rlegs you have best balence, support and leverage over the ruddy thing; you have absolutely NO need to 'paddle'.. thats something you do at the beach, not on a motorbike! It's an tendancy made ever more common by DAS and re-training car drivers used to clambering in the seat, starting the engine and THEN starting to think about maneuvering... but... not the best way about stuff on a bike.... maneuver bike where you want it first, THEN get on the dang thing and start the engine! Tiny bit of technique and discipline, and all becomes 'easy' and worrying about seat-heights some-what irrelevant....

SO.. buy to ride, not straddle outside the wine bar... feet to floor matters very very little, bum to pegs far more, THAT is how you sit when actually riding.

WHICH widens the remit rather a lot, to almost anything... and if you have the reach that matches your leg length, as neanderthals like me do, almost anything will seem a tad on the tight-side... but, about the ONLY thing I can truly say was horrible to try ride because of my size was a Honda MT125 over-the-counter GP bike.... it was so diddy I was folded double to sit on it, and so narrow I couldn't get my knees behind the effin fairing! (and I was only 15 at the time!!!!) I actually found a mini-moto more comfortable and easier to ride!!!!

So, expect to find finding a 'good' fit hard, and don't sweat the small-stuff.... In thirty odd years of this game, I have SERIOUSELY had more hassle finding water-proofs that... first are... and second are even close to a decent fit! I either end up with a trouser leg that stops somethere just under my knees and a huge gap to my boot-top when I lift my feet to the pegs... OR I end up with a marquee some-where around my balls and half a mile of wasted waist flapping in the breeze! THIS sort of thing, I have found far more vexatiouse, finding trousers that 'fit', than bikes that do!

Oh.. and the term 'Big-Bikes' is something of a misnomer..... the only thing that is guaranteed to be bigger is the size or cumulative size of holes, where fire happens in the engine.... everything else? Well, designed like off the peg cloths around 'standard' sized people... a pair of 26" wide handlebars are fitted to a bike whether its engine is 50cc, 500cc or 1500cc.... just because the engine displacement if bigger doesn't mean anything else has to be... so again, dont work on preconceptions, nebulouse ideas about how comfy something 'should' be from numbers in the books... go try for size and expect a lot of frog-kissing along the way, and likely you will STILL end up with something not as 'ideal' as hoped... it's not about the stats, its about the compramises, and unfortunately, what you cant get from a dressing-room-trial-fit, is much if any idea how comfy it will be weaving through traffic sticking boot down every traffic light, or NOT, sat in the same possition for a couple of hours when touring or tripping.... then its not just about size and shape and fit, its about wiggle room, and we are back to water-proof over-trouser analogies... you takes your pick, pays your money, and takes your chances... nothing will be comfy every where, all the time... this is biking, you WILL: get numb, you will get achie, you will get cramped, you will get sore.... its just a question of how much, and how often... and the numbers will NOT reduce that much if any, no matter how great a fit you get at the go-get.....

But start with your regular Street-bikes like a Divvy or Bandit or Fazer etc.

On the insurance issue? Get old. Its about the only thing that's ever worked for me!!! Has little else to commend it I'm afraid.. but cheaper insurance is one recompense!!!

Picking older, less valuable bikes will help; picking stuff that's not so trendy, more, and there are a couple of holes in the insurance groupings; 250ish bikes tend to be cheaper then 125's, the 750 'class' tends to be cheaper than both 1000 and 600's, but that is as much down to the untrendie-ness of bikes in those sectors I think; otherwise there's no good answer, or suggestions; you just have to spend a lot of time on Go-Compare or the like running the numbers on different alternatives... again, more leg work, no easy answers.. and if there was... there wouldn't be for long, and ins-co's would plug it as soon as folk cottoned on!

Hope.... that helps... maybe... welcome to the wonderful world of biking.... enjoy the adventure... and if you get through without being skinned or fleeced... tooooooo much..... chalk it up as a success!

What do you think of as 'Hilly'?

I was chatting to a chap about trials riding, who envied 'my' hills.... he came from Holland!! I had a cousin who used to grumble about coming to the midlands from Norfolk, for family dos, complaining his cars third gear never did much 'at home'... then he moved to Wales, and complained he'd worn it out! Hills are ALL rather relative.... BUT, bikes have 'gears' and this is what they is for!

Issue with most Learner-Bikes is NOT, repeat NOT the little power they have... its the learner hanging onto the handlebars, who probably don't use them gears properly! And this is NOT just an issue when it comes to hills.

Tendency these days is to short-shift, going up too many gears too soon. This is actually 'taught' as good-practice to car drivers; it isn't, but still, many these days don't ever learn any different; 'maybe' having a twist & go ped at 16, but most likely taking car lessons straight off at 17, getting the car licence, and not bothering with bikes, if they can afford it, until later in life, and skipping the tiddlers and going straight for the big-guns... and many instructors have followed that route these days too, so the 'habbit' gets ingrained.

A car, for all its weight, usually has an engine over 1000cc and 60bhp, and these days is expected to be able to achieve 80-90mph if not more, and go up hills and stuff with 'ease'.... cars, then, even little eccono-boxes, tend to have a certain surfeit of power that makes them 'flexible' and easy to drive.... and they can tolerate a lot of short shifting, making the engine 'labour' in too tall a gear.

Reason its 'assumed' to be 'good-practice' is that if you changed down, engine would be turning faster for the same given road-speed, hence making 'bangs' of burning fuel more often, and that HAS to be inefficient, doesn't it? Actually, it IS, sort of, but not for the usual reasons assumed...

Sooo, backing up to basics; 'Work-Done' is change in energy.... doesn't matter whether you run up a flight of stairs or walk, the amount of 'work-done' is the same... your mass moved a certain height; do it fast, do it slow, matters not, same 'work' has been done.

Same work-done, same energy change, same energy needed to be put 'in' to get that energy-change 'out'.. ergo, same amount of fuel should be used in either case... and practically, it doesn't work much different in the real world; make an engine rev its nuts off, yes, you do loose some efficiency from the 'parasitic load' of having to open and close valves more often and stuff, B-U-T its swings and round-a-bouts; you loose just as much 'efficiency' making an engine labor, where the losses will be in poorer combustion and stuff.. and bottom line an infernal combustion engine is NOT a particularly 'efficient' device to start with.... they chop up the numbers to suit the argument, but, over-all in/out efficiency is pretty dire... only something like 1/3 the energy released during combustion is actually turned into motion, the rest is wasted mostly as heat; but even before that, you are lucky to get much more than half the possible calorific energy the fuel may release on combustion, when you do burn it... B-U-T we live in a nanny-state enviro-tree-hugger-mental society, they don't let the facts ruin a good bit of propaganda!

Oh-Kay..... little bikes don't have a lot of power.... again, back to basics, power is rate of work done. Run up the stairs, you do the same work as walking, but faster... so you need more power, but NOT more energy..... most of the 'work-done' by a bike is shifting air around bike and rider; most bikes, big or small, have pretty much the same frontal area... the size of the rider, and air gets no heavier just cos the bikes engine be bigger! Again, back to basics; it takes roughly 3bhp to shove person sized shape through air at 30mph; takes around 9bhp to shove same person sized shape through air at 60mph; takes about 27bhp to shove, same person sized shape through air at 90mph, and to shove same person sized shape through air at 120mph, takes about 81bhp... give or take a tad.

Sooo.. within UK legal speed limits, shouldn't matter much at all, whether you have a 125cc engine or a 1250cc engine... until you come to a hill.... when, you aren't just shoving air aside, you are trying to lift weight of bike and rider 'up' too... and are asking for more work to be done.

NOW...bike will go up the hill.... mentioned trials, my 250cc trials bike has about 12bhp... you should see how steep some of them hills are! Bike has gone up-em; dragging my 15 stone carcass with it, often on the back wheel! It just hasn't gone up all that fast... and I have been in a pretty low gear to do it!!!!!

You have gears; you learn to use them properly, HILLS no matter how steep... and they usually aren't SO steep on the public roads.... you should be able to go up-em!

Just maybe not so fast.... but... anything else aught have much the same trouble, and similarly slow-down... a Yamaha Drug-stur, is not the only over-weight and under-powered vehicle on the roads, as any-one ever stuck behind a tranny van trying to drag a caravan should be able to testify.....

SO! the bottom line is that roads have hills, bikes have gears to cope with hills, LEARN TO USE THEM!!!

As to the Drug-Ster?!?!? I have to confess that I am NOT a fan of 125 'Cruiserettes'..... they dont 'cruise'
! Idea of a harley-esque cruiser is a big lusty engine with a surfit of power...ish... in the case of most.... that you CAN ride like a car, sticking in a tall gear and not botrhering too much with the gear-box....

125 Cruiserettes, really just do NOT have the surfit of power to do this, they do NOT cruise!

That said... Snowie, the O/H had a Chinky copy of the Honda Rebel cruiserette... over weight and under powered A-N-D gear limited to a top speed of 55mph thanks to Asian market licence regulations.... YET it was possibly ONE of the 'most' fun 125's I have ridden... round DERBYSHIRE! Which is NOT renowned for being all that flat! And working the gears, getting up to road speed, and then being very-very-brave, and/or very very stooooooopid, trying not to wast any of that precious speed, was a huge challenge, incredibly rewarding when I succeeded A-N-D a real 'hoot' along the way.....

At least for me... for you, probably not so much,. and as you get used to it, probably rather frustrating, because you'll blame the bikes obviouse lack of power for not going so fast and the audichoch up your chuff, NOT your lack of skill...... and convince yourself you need a bigger bike.....

Which is WHY they set the 125 learner-limits where they did really.... so folk DO encounter this frustration, and do go for tests so they can have something bigger..... but still..... it CAN be a lot of fun, and it certainly can teach you a heck of a lot about RIDING, and getting the most out of what you got, not looking for the super-cheat-reward-buttons, to buy your way up the ladder rather than work for it.

HOWEVER... ultimately, hills or not, a Drug-stirr, or ANY 125 Cruiserette would NOT be at the top of my learner-legal shopping list.

I do still ride 125's on a full licence; I'm not limited to them by that; and I do have big-bikes to ride; so it is by choice. Mostly because they can,. like the O/H's chinky cruiserette thing, be a lot of fun. But for my money I choose a Yamaha DT125! A very early air-cooled example, with a two-stroke engine, but still. The 125 four-stroke 'twins' that are the Super-Dream I am some-what infamouse for, were actually Snoweies choice, not mine, but that's another story!

WHY WOULDN'T I PICK A 125 CRUISER?

As said, ultimately they just don't 'cruise'. May have the looks, but that's about all. They can, like any 125 be a bit fun, but for most learners they WILL just prove frustrating.

Mentioned that they are over-weight and under-powered. Snowies Chinky 125 Cruiserette, ISTR was nie on identical mass to her current 750 Moto-Guzzi.... where they put it all is something of a mystery; but still; just because it has little engine wont mean it necessarily has little weight!

Force = Mass x Acceleration; gears give you more force, so you HAVE to use the low ones to make them shift, and even then, with as much mass to haul and no surfit of power they aren't going to haul-ass that well... especially on inclines.

BUT, I think the Guzzi tips the scales at a tad over 170Kg; I think that Snowies 125 Cruiserette was a tad under 160Kg; current 125 Super-Dream is I think just over 130Kg..... my old DT was about 90Kg..... almost HALF what the Guzzi weighs..... sounds like a lot, when you look at the comparisons.... BUT, I weigh about 15 stone! That is around 90Kg, so on the road, the numbers in the magazines are only half the story, that little engine has to shift possibly twice that weight, once the rider's aboard, which makes the 'difference' between different bikes look twice as significant as it really is.....

And you got gears.... should NOT be a big isue IF you use them properly, and DONT let audicochs intimidate you....

What DOES put me off a 125 cruiserette, is , first, the chrome... I am not a fan of polishing the stuff, for starters, and that's the only way it stays looking good, and believe me NOTHING looks good with an L-Plate hung off the back! IF any-one even bothers looking... and most of them, certainly the ones you would WANT to look... as in the ones that are going to knock you off.... don't any-way! So dont matter really how 'cool' the chrome, when you is lying in a ditch!

Next; as said they don't 'cruise'; but they dont do much else either! A cruiser is by nature, intended to be long and low, and lazy. It has slow steering, it doesn't like to do much if anything in a particular hurry, it is NOT a particularly 'responsive' style of motorcycle. Worse, to get that long and low 'look' they put the seat low, the pegs ahead, and then pull-back the handle-bars; this MAY be really comfy on a US Inter-State in the Arizona sunshine, it is NOT, a wonderful riding position for dodging UK SMIDY's.

The weight distribution is perverse; you are not in a 'command' position, with best leverage over the bars or the foot-pegs, you do NOT have the leverage or advantage to even TRY and do much in a hurry, even if the bike would!

This does NOT make them easy to learn how to ride on; they are not very good at getting round CBT or MOD 1 slalom cones; they are peculiarly unhelpful in any of that sort of stuff, whether for test or practicing for it, and just as unhelpful on the road, where in daily commute you are likely to need put that sort of training into practice to avoid becoming a BMW hood ornament!

They are, by nature, just far too compromised as a practical mode of every-day transport, by trhe assumed 'style' they are endowed with.

THEN we get to price!!!! They are/were some of the most expensive 125's on the market. ISTR that the Honda Shaddow, was actually more expensive than the Very-Oh-Dear-Oh for a time, and BOTH almost twice the price of a CBF125, itself more expenzive by a couple of hundred quid than a YBR; and it's rather damning when a 125 sits on the show-room floor with a price tag as high as the 'sensible' 500 commuter coming out the same factory!

That is the price of the 'style'! You are NOT getting an awful lot more for the extra money. Yup; it's Japanese; so its probably a bit better built than something from China.... and as a 'flag-ship' model, probably a bit better built than the entry level commuter in the same class... which in the case of Yamaha would be the YBR.... built in china!

Second hand? Yes, well, does bode well they should last better; BUT, you will still be paying as much for a three year old one, degraded by however many numpety learner owners before you get your mits on it, than a brand new out the show-room CBF or YBR.... 125's are only really designed to have a 7-10 year service life, you wait until a 4.5K 'premium' model has depreciated to the same value, there aint going to be all that much life left in the thing.... A-N-D, a £5K demands £5K bike maintenance... with extra body-work and chrome and probably cylinders, its all likely more work to do the same jobs, and the bits for a £5K bike to DO them jobs will likely be just as much over-priced as the bike was in the show-room... so more work, more money, AND more likely to need it.... it is NOT a great recipe for cheap low hassle wheels, and certainly more likely to cost more in time, money & grief than the base models the schools buy.....

ADD to that inflated insurance, based on the new-bike price, and the cost of replacement parts, and the 'numpty-factor' of if you is fool enough to buy an over-priced under performing motorcycle to start with, you probably wont be too bothered about a few quid on the monthlies for the insurance.....

SO! All up, you pay over the odds to buy a bike that's heavier and slower and harder to ride; costs more to insure, more to maintain, and will tend to be harder to maintain, either doing regular work like oiling the chain and tickling tappets, or polishing all that ruddy chrome!

It is just NOT the sort of masocism I am into, and all for the sake of 'style' no-one is likely to be all that impressed by, especially when there's still an L-Plate attached.

If it IS a form of masocism that appeals to you, a-n-d you think its worth the money for that 'look'.. who am I to deny you.... people spemd thosands a year to dress up like Rupart the bear and knock a plastic ball about a field in the hope of loosing it down a rabbit hole.... and call it 'fun'.... which probably makes motorcycles look ultra sensible... but like the hills, its ALL relative....... A-N-D if you want to worry about ANYTHING here and now, these sort of things probably are not all that worth worrying about.

[bhinso]

[Howling TerrorOutOfOffice]

Mother-cunting-Nora.
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[ThunderGuts]

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TG.

[Ste]

1/ Licence... CBT is NOT a licence its just the first lesson...
2/ GEAR... tends to rain a lot in this country, so gear, especially gear that makes you inclined to go out in the rain is good!
3/ MONEY! Paying for CBT, gear and licences is not cheap and easy.... and this is one of life's most common worries, so may as well get used to it and add it to the list!

BIKES... come some-where... quite a LONG way down the list, and pretty much at the bottom.... you dont need one, and cant use one till you have sorted almost everything above it... so why worry about that first?

Once you get to it... well, CBT lasts 2 years... and if you take heed of getting the real licence, you are likely allowed to get a licence for something other than just a 125 rather sooner, and this choice, your 'first-bike' is just that, its not your last or only choice. Some of us have many more than one motorcycle, and others chop and change them more often than their socks.. it REALLY is not a big deal, or one worth waqsting to much worry on... OTHER THINGS ARE... go deal with them.... sort all else and bike will happen naturally... dont, and you'll be in a mire either way.....

A-N-D when it comes to bike shopping; get OFF the net and out in the real world. There's only something like 150,000 motorcycles of ALL types in the UK to start with. Of them, half are over 125cc, and half of what's left is mopeds and scooters.... the entire 125 population of the UK is only something like 30,000 motorcycles.. half of them, will be generic chinese offerings based on CG or YBR engines.... half of what's left will be a mixed bag of stuff, made up mostly of the bikes bought by the schools of cost conciouse commuters, like YBR's or CBF's and 'stuff'; They only sell something like 1 'premium' 125 for every three entry models, and there are probably three 'premium' models for every entry model, so you are realistically looking at a 'pool' of 1000 motorcycles of a particular model, in the country.... and how many of them will actually be 'for-sale'? Hint, learner bikes tend to be sold on every two years or so, about the length of a CBT cert... so, in any month, you will be lucky to find 10 examples of the bike you think you want, that are actually for sale... and half of them, probably NOT advertised on your smuft-phone, but traded over canteen dining tables, or are on post-0cards in news-agents windows or offered by word of mouth to freinds of freinds of relatives.... the length and bredth of the country....

IF you find one of the actual bikes you want, that is for sale, by whatever means.... how far are you prepared to travel, and how fast can you get there, with cash in your hands, and how big a disappointment are you prepared for if you do, when you see that in the metal, all that loverly chrome is rather tarniched, rusty, or skuffed?

THIS is the reality of buying motorcycles, 125's or not.. they are NOT like a washing machine or nintendo game you can pick up on any high-strreet or get a deal on waiting for the sales....

DO NOT pin your hopes and aspirations on trying to find the 'exact' right bike, by make and model, in virtual reality, and THEN going to try find it... you will likely be looking a very very long time, and STILL be disapointed if you find one.....

Sofd the specs, sort all else that needs sorting, scrape cash you can into a pile, THEN go look at what IS in the real world actually for sale, what you CAN actually get to to do a deal over, after looking at the thing, and deciding it MAYBE worth a punt, and can get seller to hand over the keys for in exchance for whatever cash you have scraped into that pile.....

Then, what the buyers guides suggest, what we 'enthusiasts' may say, matters EFF-ALL... its what you can, in the real world, get your hands on for cash in your pocket, that does actuially WORK... how good it looks, how well it works, is all secondary to that really......

Get off the net... go pound shoe-leather; and the BIKE is really the last thing you need, and last thing you need worry about.... it almost always comes down to a Honbson's choice, and there is never a good one, only degrees of bad ones, which will deminish in significance with the mistakes you will make learning to live with the thing, in the real world, falling off, forgetting to check the oil, discovering you need new brake pads, etc etc etc... its ALL learning, which is why they call them learner-bikes.. and it ALL has cost attached... you will never get a bargain.... so do the best you can, and start by not sweating the small stuff, which, 'the bike', in virual reality of the web, REALLY is.

Best of luck, and have fun... butr dont pin your hopes and aspirations on ideas inspired by web-reviews or adverts!

The washers may be 'expensive' for a number of reasons:-

1/ - Certificate of Restriction

NOT a legal necessity; it's entirely down to you whether you choose to ride a legally A2 complient bike, the certificate has absolutely no legal standing, no matter how many coppas or insurance co's ask for one/expect you to have one. But there is a point when dealing with idiocy to just come down to their level and play dumm.. thing about idiots is they tend to always build a better version when ever you think you have a fool-proof-plan, and whether you do or dont, they'll still drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!

An 'official' looking Cert-of-Restriction, that passes officialdoms expectations, then is oft what is being paid for, more than the metal.

2/ - Proof-of-Restriction

See above. Not legally necessary, and not necesserily a bit of paper warranting restriction; But, if SOLD as a product that will make a bike legally A2 complient, then under sale-of-goods act it bludy better well should, or the seller could be in a mire of challenged to 'prove' product, as sold was fit-for-purpose.

Little bit of metal with a hole in it, then is not just a little bit of metal with a hole in it, its the R&D on that little bit of metal to make a hole just the right size and shape to actually restrict the engine just enough, then more, the Dyno time spent proving it... and NOT just on one engine, but any and every engine that washer is sold to restrict... and there in lies a lot of time on a dyno, to NOT necesserily 'defray' the costs of over millions and millions of product sold.

There's 30-million people in the UK; over half of them have a car-licence, and there are actually more registered and taxed cars than there are folk to drive them! There's only about 3 million bikes in the UK; and an awful lot more 'full' licence holders than there are bikes for them to ride. The actual 'market' for restriction kits for A2 compliant licence holders, is at best, PRETTY small.. 3 million motorcycles; half of them A1 class scooters and sub 125's. So around 1.5 million motorcycles, of which a lot will either be naturally A2 compliant, or ridden by RWYL 'A' licence holders to whom it don't matter. So how many A2 restriction kits is any-one ever going to sell in a year? The market is TINY, and the perms and coms of bikes they could buy and try to restrict many, and if they have to put almost every bike they may want to restrict on a Dyno to get 'proof-of-restriction' then, they are each going to have to bear a fairly large proportion of that development cost.

3/ ITS NOT JUST A FUGGING WASHER!

See above! It may be a pretty 'simple' artifact to make, BUT still has to be made, and in the sales volumes suggested, cost of tooling up to make one cannot be defrayed accross a mass-market sales volume.

Penny washers that are like £1 for 40 from screwfix are stamped out of sheet metal. They dont have to fit, accurately inside a carburettor manifold or throttle body, and the size of the hole down the middle is also subject to a pretty wide 'tolerance'... you get a washer that hasn't been properly blanked in a box from screw-fix when you are putting up the kitchen shelves, and it has no hole down the middle... you chuck it over your shoulder and grab another! You get a restriction washer that don't have a hole in it, you're motor isn't going to run very well!

Them washers have to be preccission made... comparitively.. that means that they have to be cut down to size, and sometimes shape, to fit, and not just fit but fit accurately and snugly within the intake tract. Holes have to be there.. and the right size to actuallu let charge flow through them, and 'just' restrict flow enough to ensure A" power limits.

Given the tiny tiny potential sales volumes, this means that they cant blank them on a press like screw-fix washers.. even if they could, they'd still need QC screening to make sure they had holes, and or be reworked by hand. Cheap and easy to hand make to start with, which means they are a high-labour artifact... MAY just be a simple bit of metal, but they are a pretty tightly engineered and there's more man-hours gone into one than there is metal! And that's skilled man-hours for a man that knows how to work a lathe, not a shelf-stacker on NMW like at Tesco's!

WHY would you imagine these things HAVE to be 'cheap' just because there's not a lot of metal in them?

4/ MARKETING

A fool and his money are soon parted! Supply and demand etc etc etc. There aren't a lot of folk who may buy these things, BUT those that might are probably pretty desperate. If saving money was really their top concern, they wouldn't have bought a big-bike to start with, or made life hard doing an A2 licence, more made life harder still buying a unrestricted bike and trying to MAKE it A2 compliant.

Market will demand what folk are prepared to pay, and folk are prepared to pay what people ask for these washers!

Advice on what route to go down?

No actual legal requirement for you to ride a bike, let alone one that's not inherently A2 compliant, and mod to be so. No legal requirement for an A2 licence holder to restrict with an off-the-shelf e-bay gizmo like a restriction kit OR ECU....

There's nothing to stop you getting non A2 compliant, but restrictable bike, and doing whatever YOU want to make it A2 compliant.... Law merely states that its YOUR responsibility as licence holder to ensure, by whatever means, bike you ride is within licence entitlement.....

Ultimate answer is a Dyno-Print out of THAT actual bike you are riding.... which is a slittle vague as far as when that dyno-print was taken, and whether at the time of riding it's still making power described by Dyno-Print, and plenty more queries of how accurate the dyno-run may have been to start with..... B-U-T

No reason why you cant restrict by putting a screw in the throttle twist grip to stop it opening all the way; putting it on a Dyno, turning the screw down until A" power is achieved, then aralditing the screw in place. Or putting 'throttle-stop' anywhere else on the throttle actuating mechanism, like the actual throttle butterfly lever, or the cable adjuster; OR making your own washer to restrict flow, from a bit of plastic cut from a stak-a-box, to taking the engine to bits and filing down the cam-lobes!

HOW you choose to restrict your bike, is ONE question

How you choose to PROVE... if challenges that it's restricted... a completely seperate one.

A-N-D question is what will who-evber is asking acctually 'accept'.. some form filling insurance clerke, who knows nothing about bikes and has even less interest, probably wants to see a bit of paper saying "Certificate of Restriction"... makes them happy, makes thier life easy, job done.

Coppa at the side of the road.. if a little more clues up, could challenge that, and insist its as worthless as we all say, because you dont actually have to have a restricted bike to have a bit of paper that says "Certificate of Restriction" on it..... could go to court, and there, judge will want some 'assurance' that in the balance of probability; a) you have done 'something'.. a receipt from a guild garage, would be pretty good.... photo's and schematics of your own home-brew restriction mech would be interesting; b) Whatever has been shown to be done... WORKED.... Ie they will want to see a Dyno-Print to show that it's got power beneath A2 limits.

Thems your options... pretty much endless.. like law says, its UP TO YOU to 'ensure' bike you ride is within licence limitations.... how you do that, and how you may choose to convince an insurance co or coppa or court is then also down to you..

What you want, is a cheap and easy, off the shelf, no hassle, guarantee... that dont cost you any time or money or hassle! Sorry... but, you want to ride a non A2 bike on A2 licence, you do the leg work.. easy answer is to catch the bus, or buy a bike naturally A2 compliant.

Makes your choices - pays your money - takes your chances - its ALL your call, and sorry but we dont have a magic wand to fix your problem, and make all 'cheap and easy'... you want cheap and easy... buy a bike that's A2 complient in the sales brochure.

I'm 47. I have been riding bikes best part of 40 years, & had a full licence over quarter-century...... when they say "You'll get bored..." means that they expect you will have the same expectations they do, that the bike is like a play-station game, and IT is supposed to deliver the 'fun' when you turn it on.

Little hint, the 'fun' isn't in the bike, its in YOU.

Big bikes demand you take them a bit serious, hence I find they tend to 'lack' a lot of the fun you can have being a bit daft with a tiddler... which I probably AUGHT to take a bit more seriously, as at the end of the day, 125 can go as fast as any bike is legally allowed to in this country, and I can break just as many speed limits on one..... just takes a bit more effort!

Which is, to be honest where a heck of a lot of the 'fun' might be found.... ragging the crap out of the poor little thing, making it deliver 110% of all it has to offer.

It's a bit like siting down in a restaurant to a gourmet dinner...... "Yes, it's all very nice, but I couldn't eat like this EVERY night... I'd get bored of it!"..... and you know no different.... now go home, and cook yourself a bacon buttie..... it aint fancy, but its still tasty and YOU made it..... Now try cooking a lasagne...... (from 'base' ingredients!) bit more tricky, but a lot more rewarding, and so much nicer when you sit down top munch it!

ANY bike, can get boring, like your favorite dinner, IF it just becomes 'routine'

Big-Bikes are all well and good, but... ANY of them can get 'boring' if YOU let them...... then the 'change' is what offers the interest, adds the 'fun', and littluns can be as much or more fun from that difference as any, BUT its the change that's stirred the 'fun' to the surface; many riders find 'enough' difference just switching between different bikes of similar style or similar capacity, to stir their interest for a little longer... and as so many only ride high-days and holidays anyway, that 'may' be enough for them; but for other's, to get the 'thrill' back, they have to make a complete sea change; switching from a Hyper-Sports to a Motard, or Muscle-Bike to full-dress Tourer, or hop between, But STILL, they are looking for the BIKE to serve up the 'fun', which it has little ability to do....

What makes the FUN is the RIDING IT!!!!!

You just got to get out; crank miles, see scenery (and try not to become a bit of it!!) Different roads, different routes, different days, different WAYS of doing stuff..... THAT is where the 'fun' is to be found.

It Aint whatcha got, its whatcha do with it.....

VFR800?!?!?!? Will that be 'fun' for 2-3 years?!?!?!? Well, of all bikes ever built, I have to say that I found the veritable old VFR to be about THE blandest thing I have ever ridden....... bit like my Honda Civic car.... "Well what do you think?" to which I replied.... "err..... not a lot! No seriously! There's just NOTHING to remark upon!" The thing just did exactly what was expected, competently, quietly, without fuss or drama or niggle! It was about as remarkable and as much 'fun' as a washing machine!

I'm sure that like ANY bike, I could find the 'fun', going places, doing stuff, BUT it just ISN'T in the bike.... and of all bikes, the VFR is so well rounded it provides very very little 'added interest'.. which TBH is likely often desirable, unless you like trying to catch front end slides, or tame tail wagging antics and such... B-U-T.... to 'MY' mind, the VFR is a Honda Civic. IF you go search for it, you will find a lot of fun on it... but you could ANY bike.

VFR's forte is that it just does enough of everything its almost a one size fits all motorcycle, and I know enough folk who have owned a succession of them, who swear by them, and appreciate that all-round competence, that lets them go 'find' the fun, whether its a two-week tour of Spain, a week-end in the lakes, a day trip to the races, Or even a scratch round the circuit on a track-day.... VFR just gets on and does its thing and lets you 'find' the fun in whatever it happens to be...... mildly!

In a world of 'boring' bikes, where the ER5 is roundly critisised for its utterly utilitarian vanilla, a VFR is probably a natural progression, and likely to be that much 'more' of everything you hope and expect..... but 2-3 years? Like I said, its such a one-size-fits-all motorcycle, there are folk that have ridden them for 20-30 years and couldn't imagine buying anything else.... B-U-T

Fun is STILL not a quality that they can engineer into the mechanics. YOU have to go find it... hopefully the sort you prefer! Or any and every bike will quickly become 'boring' as you get over the new-toy-euphoria, and acclimatized to what it has to offer.

So sod the bike.... 'just go RIDE!!!!

That's where the fun's to be found, and what bike comes next doesn't matter.. Right here, right now, JUST ride THIS bit of road you are on, as far as the event horizon you can see! Don't be worrying about what may or may not be around the third corner to come, that you cant see yet.... there may be nothing there.... worry about THIS one coming up! And if there's NOTHING to worry about...... ENJOY!

Oh gawd, back-brake and slow-speed-maneuvers.. 'Drag'n'effin'Slip' warning!!!!!!!

Oh-Kay.... the 'legacy' of back-brake for slow speed maneuvering, there IS good reason behind it.... B-U-T not in drag'n'slip which is the MC equivalent of patting your head and rubbing your tummy!

It's actually quite a simple principle why back-brake for slow-speed came to be... and it's a matter of geometry.

The front wheel, is on a fork, raked out from the vertical and hinged to the frame; when you turn the bars, the wheel doesn'tpivot directly over the contact patch of the tyre, the contact patch of the tyre moves in an arc.. which means it can go either side of the axis of the bike.... wore the fork is telescopic, and the wheel can go up and down... but not just up and down, as the fork's raked, it goes forwards and back, too... actual wheel base changes with suspension movement... and it could all get very complicated....

B-U-T, the thing is that off-set between the contact patch and the axis of motion... as long as you are going in a dead straight line, you dont get any off-set, so it shouldn't make any odds... but if doing 'manouvers' you are probably wanting to 'steer' as well as anything else, and you DO get that offset.

TRAIL... draw a line through the head-stock 'hinge' where that line cuts the floor aught to be ahead of the contact patch of the tyre. The distance between the intersection of the hinge axis and the contact patch is actually the 'trail' dimension sometimes quoted in the brochure specs; but it's like the 'castor' on a shopping trolly wheel or trailer behind a car... as long as the contact patch is behind the hinge, like the car trailer.... the trailer'follows' the car.... now watch some-one trying to reverse a caravan...... yeah.. it tends to go ANYWHERE!!!

Now keep that analogy in mind...... MOST of the time, when riding a bike, that contact patch stays well behind the hinge, and everything 'sort' of stays where it should, like a trailer being dragged..... but bikes is built to tilt, and that can complicate things..... but still... I'll ignore that for now!

Oh-Kay.. hinge, contact patch behind hinge, bike..... now turn bars to the left, and the contact patch moves to the right of center....

Now brake.....

Subtle aside... It is almost certain that when you read that, you imagined braking with the front.... bike moving forwards, off-set, contact patch to the right, weight traveling along center line, braking reacting that offset from axis of travel a-n-d....

Yes! This is where it all gets complicated... but I didn't 'say' brake with the front, did I? But lets run with it....

You brake with the front, you have a momentum force pushing along the axis of travel.... you have a reaction force trying to oppose that, pushing back through the contact patch, and an offset between the two lines....

This gives you a 'couple' or 'torque' two offset forces trying to twist something.... and in this case, conveniently that's the 'hinge' the forks and frame, so something is actually 'free' to twist, and the only thing stopping it is you hanging onto the handlebars!!

Now... your steering left, contact patch shifts to the right, resultant torque tries to 'straighten' the bars back up to center; So the more you try and turn, so the more off-set you create, hence more torque, and 'self centering' effect, so the more you have to try and resist that torque and positively turn the bars to the left...

NOW built to tilt.... ignore the KCody counter-steer distraction, BUT, you get into a world of what is called progression effects, and turning the bars to the left WILL make the bike 'try' and lean to the right, and the lines of action get all very muddled in 3-Dimensions, as the bike lens over and the center of gravity everything 'should' soft of act through, moves around over the top of the two contact patches.....

B-U-T, up-shot is that as you brake on the front, the natural self-centering of the steering geometry tries to counteract the steering input.....

At speed, lean tends to be greater, and steering smaller, so the offset is kept small, and you don't have to 'fight' the bars very much.

When you is going slow.... you PROBABLY want a lot more steering, as in a much tighter 'arc'. You probably also have the tendancy to hold the bike as upright as you can.... feels like it will just fall over if you lean it more... and so. top get the right arc you hope for, you likely use a LOT of bar-turn. That means a much bigger 'offset' between contact patch and axis of travel, and so more reaction, and hence more fighting the steering to deal with it.....

A-N-D more tenancy; As you steer, you will 'naturally' try and lean the other way to get the leverage to turn the bars.... you aren't leaning the bike very much, but you are probably MAKING perverse weight shifts effectively leaning the opposite way to steer....

That will tend to try and make the bike lean that way; and so 'not' steer as much as you turn the bars... so you are in a tussle, more tou steer, more you lean, less you steer, more you try steer, more you lean the wrong way, etc

A-N-D all the time, BRAKING... the braking force through the offset fighting you making you try and turn even more, and lean even more and you get in a R-I-G-H-T mess!!!!!

Brake with the BACK brake.... now there's no offset between the opposing forces.... braking is coming from the back, its always behind like the caravan, being dragged..... it does NOT set up a wrestling match with the handlebars!!!!

THIS is where the suggestion comes from...... and actually makes a lot of sense and more, WORKS!!!!!!

Best of all, it actually works at pretty much all speeds, and on the road, NOT using the back-brake is pretty much just making life hard for yourself.....

I can hear the sport-bike-jockeys sucking in more air than a supercharged hemi at that, and someone shouting that a back wheel in the air aint transmitting any braking force...... which is true...... why the heck isn't it on the deck where it should be in the first place though?!?!? And we get into the anomalies and contradictions, of which there are many...

Two things; FIRST that so-oft-ignored back brake is a DAMN useful thing to have, AND its a hell of a good habit to get into using it, as routine. Slow-Speed or no....

Up to the point that the back-wheel is hanging in the air, that on public road you shouldn't EVER really encounter anyway, it IS doing 'something' and something useful; and that IS putting a proportion of useful braking force through the back tyre, where its dragging the speed down like a parachute, rather than pushing it down like a way-ward shopping trolly wheel, through the trail offset, and geometry effects and natural tendancy to try and lean the wrong way to help steer....

For slow-speed manouvers... first that back brake is a good freind.... NOT giving you extra work through the offset and steering geometry.... Beyond that...... recognizing that bikes steer by LEANING as much as they do by turning the handlebars goes a long way..... and, it is an increased tendancy on a bigger heavier bike, especially if coming up from a light-weight, and most so at low speeds to NOT lean the boogah, and try do it ALL through the bars, which like only using front brake, is just making life hard for yourself and setting up of inflating the number of competing forces to get in a tangle to bring you down.

LET IT LEAN, the thing weights you suggested 180Kg... that's near enough 400lb, the weight of a pro-wrestler like Hulk-Hogan or The Rock, plus a bit.. why you in such a hurry to get into a wresting match with it?!?! Use less bar-steer, more lean-steer.. let it lean, DON'T get into the wresting match with it, do judo... let its weight work for you! And then DON'T give it the advantage, USE THAT BACK BRAKE!

You shouldn't, for slow speed maneuvers, or even pretty brisk ones! Be going so fast that on a 180+Kg motorcycle there's a lot of risk of lifting the back-wheel on braking..... so let the weight keep it on the deck, get the braking effect from it, and save making that shopping trolly effect at the front.

Remember, bikes lean. If you dont lean them, you may as well buy a car or ride the bus; its what they do! DO IT! Don't fight it, USE it; let the thing lean, and help you turn, and get in the habbit of using that back brake, especially at slow speeds to save some, if not all the tangle of competing forces from that 'trail-offset' at the front.

CBT is just the first lesson.

A DL196 form to validate provisional entitlement is NOT a licence... you still require L-Plates the idea of which is to go learn.. not spend howver long pigging about pretending to be a learner dodging the tests.

CBT is a heavy day, 8 hours of training, it tries to cover most of what you need know, but only just enough to get you going sop you might go learn on L's. No more!

Book a CBT-Course, its cheaper if you have a bike of your own you can use, but often not much.... and if you are going to be doing first lesson and likely to crunch the thing, the extra £30-40 or so to book a course that includes bike hire can be a real boon, before the little niggle of how do you get bike you have no entitlement to ride to the school to do CBT... or back if they dont give you a DL196..... getting insurance on a bike you dont have licence entitlement for is also pretty awkward.....

Ie a LOT easier to just cough up the £140 or so and go do CBT on school bike....
1/ see if you actually LIKE it... many dont!
2/ Find out if you can complete the course... and in a day.... many more dont!
3/ Get the DL196 in your pocket.... decide what to do NEXT.

THIS is all you need worry about, here and now. Other than asking CBT school what the dress code may be, and what the lunch arrangements are!!!

Get daily comute out of your head!!!!!

Especially straight off CBT!!! Like I said its jkust the first leson, NOT a licence. Daily commute tends to be the most hazard strewn crash trap time and place to go ride, IF you can possibly avoid it, DO SO! Licence or no effin licence!

Remember L-Plates is to LEARN to pass tests, not dodge'em! On CBT and L's, go learn, go practice what you learn, pick your time and place to ride and DONT dive in the deep end of the commute, IF you like your legs! Practice round the houses, trundle out onto industrial estates, at quieter times, head to the hills on a sunny-dunday, get some miles under your belt, where there aren't the hazards of steering wheel gnashing idiots trying to get to work, after being moaned at by the missus not to forget the precise ingredients she needs for fancy dinner, and predicting the idiot boss moaning about whatever he wants done he could easily have done himself in half the time he spent moaning, etc etc etc IE NOT looking out for Learner's on Motorbikes... they probably aren't even paying much attension to other cars and YOU will just be pushing your luck!

But, DL196 in your pocket... hopefully... options are open... you MAY iof you wish get a 125, slap L-Plates on it and forget about the tests for a couple of years... you might even survive the daily commute without too many incidents of road-rash of broken bones.... but not ideal... and L-For-Learner.. wont get you a licence.

As a precursor to doing a course.... well, you cant do full A by DAS until you are 24... that's three years off, and at least two repeat CBT's... why wast your time and money, to NOT get a licence when you could?

125's is not kiddie bikes, they are often as fast as anything else is legally allowed to go ion this country, and even the least inspirational of them can break a lot of speed limits.... actually they are perversely probably the more 'serious' motorcycles on the roads for all they are ridiculed, so many used as every-day commuters, cranking up high average annual miles, whilst the 'big-bikes' so often sit in the garage as sunny-day 'toys' and often see no more than a few hundred miles twixt MOT's.....

A-N-D they DO make very sensible daily commuters. Dont expect them to be anywhere near as 'cheap' as the MPG figures in the books suggest though. Maintenance costs on bikes catch many by surprise, and little ones tend to demand little and often. 70-100mpg does look good though.... but as newbie you will likely tend to the lower potential, as you wont ride economically, and beyond that, you will probably rag the thing every where frustrated how slow they seem.... which tends to blunt economy incentive a bit, but it is still there, if not as large as so many hope or presume.

Maintenance costs can be kept reasonable not picking a more 'posey' and mechanically convoluted example, covered in fairings or chrome, more still by DIYing much of the work, as its not that hard or demanding.

They need oil changes frequently, as in around every 1000miles, but they only take half a litre or so a go, so needn't be neglected, its just time and effort. Much of the rest is the same, and begs a little time quite often, but not necesserily very much money.

By comparison, big bike may not need its oil changed for 5ooo miles, but when it does, it'll need a full 4litre can.. and of the good stuff. Tyres are another example; a decent pair of tyres on a 125, might cost £100, but will probabaly outlast the bike! As in maybe 20-30,000 miles! On a big bike, they'll probably cost more like £200, but you'll likely scrub them out in under 5oo miles... and now big bikes start to get expensive.....

And if ALL you want to do is commute across town? Is it really worth the money, to do it on a bigger bike that often does little for you but massage your ego to NOT do it on a cheaper tiddler... loose licence faster or crash-quicker being more enthusiastic with the throttle, AND begs a chunk load of cash up front to do a course to get the licence?

Your call... but no one makes you ride a motorbike, no-one makes you ride to work, no one says you HAVE to ride a big-bike.... or pay big bike running costs for it.

125's greatest asset is that IF you do go that route, you DO NOT have to wally-about on one pretending to be a learner for ever and a day.. there Is a 125 only licence, you can test for it at any age over 17, and NEVER have to do another CBT...... its also pretty much as cheap to self book and self take an A1-125 only test as it is to do a repeat CBT course..... and after, costs can be kept reasonably in check.

IF you plan on commuting on a 125, for costs, then MY recommend is you get one to go LEARN, not go to work.

Do your learning on your own time; which is a case not so much of learning what to do, as the bike, road or other traffic punishing you, with real actual pain as well as added costs, when you get it wrong.... and leaving you to work out what that was and try not do it again!

Which does hint at the merits of upfront courses, but still.... going it alone on a 125 can be cheap...er.

No lessons beyond CBT requires, and WHEN you think you have it sussed enough to tackle the daily commute, you are probably ready to take tests... which as said cost about the same as a repeat CBT course... and if you want to continue riding have to be paid at some point....

Go do the theory/hazard. Its a bit of a lottery, but your young, its just like x-box, you'll probably ace it.

Then you need that to book a Mod 1, which is just the CBT cone exercises under the scrutiny of man with a clipboard for a personality.... last check it was only £15 cheaper than a lesson, go do, take your chances... get it wrong, he tells you what to do right 'next time', its a cheap lesson, if nowt else!

AND darn site cheaper failing tests on your own 125 for that sort of money plus petrol, than expensive DAS tests on a hired school bike at £150 a pop!

Pass? Go book Mod 2, the on-road round the houses test. Its only £75 why not, finish the job? Nails down your A1 licence if you pass, you never have to do another CBT, and IF and I say IF, you want to go on for higher licences, you have been through the grinder once, you know what to expect, you SHOULDN'T have to cough up SO much for training after, you have already done the tests AND passed them, and they are the exact same tests for A2 and RWYL 'A', just on a bigger bike.... so lessons should only be needed to get your eye back in and get the feel of bigger bike before tests, not teach you over to suck eggs....

SO! A1-125 only licence... can pay for itself. Once done no more repeat CBTs to continue pretending to be a learner. If higher licences wanted... its YOUR MONEY.... bigger bikes tend to mean bigger bills, and not an awful lot more for your money..... but, if you want bigger bike lixcence, the small cost of doing A1 can go a long way to keeping costs of A2 or RWYL'A' down.... as said, tends to get rather expensive faling tests when you are paying £150+ a pop to rent bike, and have an instructor folloow you in order to fullfil legal requirement of 'supervision' to let you ride one on 'L's to test.

If you have money to burn, then skipping tiddlers and going straight to big-bikes can be done via DAS. As said, tends to beg big upfront cost for a course, and you are on the pinch-point, old enough to do A2 for a 45bhp limited licence, but not old enough to test for a RWYL'A' and the accelerated access allowed to A2 hiolders to do an RWYL'A' a fter 2 years, would likely be redundant as you'd be old enough to do RWYL'A' directly by the time that came up anyway..... Still... like I said, if you have the money, its your call.

Doing a course, has a lot of merit! Not least some-one who should know what they are talking about will TEACH you how to do stuff right, right at the start.... rather than having to figure it out from the school of hard knocks...... and pain... lots and lots of pain!

Plenty of A2 complaint bikes about, or bikes that can reasonably easily be made A2 complaint with a washer up their chuff.

And 45bhp is nowt to be sniffed at. As said, a 125 aught go pretty much as fast as any other bike is legally allowed in this country.... bigger bikes just break speed-limits more easily... not always a good thing... and tend to be heavier to pick up when they fall over.... and cost more to maintain..... perversely they MAY depending on what you pick, be a tad cheaper to insure, if more expensive to tax.

On that score, for illustration, my 750 costs me about £90 a year to insure.... gives you an idea how ancient both I and bike are! Similar value 125, actually costs me about £120, for the same level of cover, under same consitions, so about 25-30% MORE to insure the 125... which isn't a lot in my case. The £90 a year road tax, compared to £18 for the 125, is similarly small potatoes, in the all up scheme of things, and only with my penny premiums does it start to even the score on the all in overheads.

But, factor in the maintenance... and on my bikes that's only kept in limits by both being pure 'toys' not having to work for a living, and only doing leisure miles... and with more miles comes more wear and tear, and more maintenance, and on the bigger bikes, more tyres, increasingly quickly and costs get very big, very quick!

You may want a bike cos car insurance is high... BUT... insurance is only ONE of the many costs and if you haven't got the love and enthusiasm for bikes to begin with, trying to find ecconomy with one could be a fools errand.... FI you just dont use it cos of the discomfiorty of being in cold and wet and mucki, or you give up cos of the pain and hasle of balencing on a knife edge of two tiny patches of rubber.... THEN an unused bike, can be a very very expensive way NOT to get to work, however big its engine.....

SO! Go book and do a CBT, see how you get on.... dont try building a bridge before you have the river to cross!

Of course IF you take to it.... then costs could go out the window and in flurry of enthusiasm, a DAS course will be the only thing woirth doing, and you'lll be ruing licence regs that wonly let you get the Ride-What-You-Like version for another two or three years... but what the heck, till then you'll suffer as much as you can have, and or 'cheat' and try riding an unrestricted bandit or something else that breaches licence regs you can blag through the paper work.... BUT that's your call.....

And till then, it ALL hinges on doing a CBT course....

For which you need, a packed lunch, warm sensible cloths, a good nights sleep, and an open minds, and eff-all-else.

DONT try turning corners till you get to them, ride THIS bit of road your on here an now... and for now all you need worry about is getting to the garden gate.. no further!

As post-script, also worth mentioning do your sums VERY carefully. It would have been over £25oo to put my teen age daughter on the old Honda Civic's insurance policy. Quotes for a Honda 125 in her name, on CBT came in at around the £600 mark.... UNTIL we checked the small print, and checked the "+commuting" box to let her ride it to college every day.. then it often doubled.... probably still cheaper than a car, BUT, all in, ass the costs of a course, ass the costs of getting togged up by way of wet-weathers and crash helmet and stuff, and the locks needed to stop bike being ehweled away from the college bike sheds, AND factor in £100 of 125 over £500 worth of chitty-old Honda Civic, and the balence sheet may NOT be as bleak as you think.... and if you have to suffer them high costs of perdonalised motorized transport, a bike you get cold and wet and cant cart your mates about in, oir do the weekly shopping, or impress a bloke in an interview with mentioning on your CV, may NOT be as economical as you think, and as said, you could easily end up hating.... and aluded my bikes are toys... if I HAD to ride them rather than just WANTED to ride them, then I would really resent even the small money they cost me.....

MOVE!!!! - North would be my recommend.. a LONG way North!
You are spending more a year on train tickets than I am on my fucking MORTGAGE!!!!!!!!

However.. DON'T do bikes to save money. do bikes cos you want to do bikes.

You probably wont save much, if anything, short term, and if you DO save anything, likely to take a long while to recoup your set-up costs.. if you ever do... while any cash you do free up is likely as not to be consumed indulging in any and all the 'paraphernalia' that is associated with a new 'hobby', which like as not will beg every spare penny you have to feed the enthusiasm.

Meanwhile; commuting is NOT fun. a bike might make it a bit less 'boring' in the short term, but in all likelihood, making so much of your biking a 'chore' can damp the 'fun' and after five days battling with the commuter psyco's all out to kill you, you will not find such enthusiasm to get on the bike 'just' for fun at the week-end.

So like I say, don't do it to save money, don't do it to save time. do it because you want to do it, and IF it offers any more after.. relish the 'Bonus'.

Possibly tipping the scales.. you do know you aren't allowed on motorways on L-Plates, don't you?

BUT... sod the costs, do it 'cos you want it. AND...

CBT is not a licence, its a first lesson. Legacy Law that lets a LEARNER ride a 125 on L's before tests is so hey can practice for tests.. not fuck-arse about avoiding them...

£600 on riding gear? Yeah. THERE is your DAS course, near enough, and believe me, dong that little learning will do more to keep you 'safe' than any amount of armour and padding!

Armour & padding is only any use when you fall off... wont STOP you falling off.. wont even stop you get hurt when you fall off...believe me, falling off hurts no matter what you wear! All good gear may do is soften a bit of the blow, provided its bg enough to actually hurt t begin with, and not so hard it wont kill you anyway!

GET TRAINED. get some know how. Learn how to NOT fall off! THAT s what keeps us safe!!!!

Prioritise that DAS course over better gear!

THEN.. what bike can you buy for a grand? Plenty... Remember its not an 'either or' choice. Its a FULL Bike Licence ot a Big-Bike licence! No one takes it off you if you don't buy something over 400cc within the first six weeks, you know! You can ride a 125 on a full licence just as happily as you can a 1250.. you'll just be doing it with all the right training, and without the L-Plates... and be able to use them Motorways if you must.

And there are still Brand-New (Chiky) 125's advertised for £1000, so even if you don't re-evaluate the budget priorities, and skimp the gear to get the training, you can still do the training and have a bike.



A for the gear? Hat, law says you have to have. They start from as little as £30.. padding in a £300 hat wont save you 10x the hurt if you crash, but spending the £270 saving on training is likely to save you having a crash!

Gloves? Cant control a bike if your fingers are frozen numb. This is, if there s anything worth spending big money on in bike gear, where its probably best spent! Small garments, but fiddly and a lot of work to make, good gloves don't tend to come cheap. Cheap gloves tend to be cold, and or uncomfy and or inflexible.

Water-proofs. I find I get wet here the UK more often than I crash. so far more use, far more often than leather or kevlar and armour. Also covers everything else, so you can layer-up in 'cheap' conventional out-door wear underneath. Good old fashoed jumpers offer padding as well as warmth, and don't tend to dig into you like cheap armour!

Boots? Cheap bike boots I think are a waste of money. They tend not to offer much f any more crash-protection or 'support' than any other 'sensible' out-door footwear, cost 3x the price because they say 'moto-sport' or something on them, and last in every-day wear about a well as a cheap pair of unbranded trainers!

Kitting up on the 'cheap' I would Budget about :-

- £50 for good gloves.
- £50-£100 for a crash hat, tops.
- £30 - £50 for water-proof oversuit.
If you cant 'improvise' the rest from what sensble out-foors wear you already have your wardrobe, then add:-
- £50 for a pair of 'sensible' akle length out-door / work boot. Army surplus; Catapillar kock-off kind of thig work well, and are well withn suggested budget.
- £30 for decet pair of jean/ cammo trusers
- £50 for a rugged out-door jacket, again Army Surplus camo jacket / Fishermans anorak type stuff, cheap durable & practcal.

£300 tops IF you have to buy everything. With some prudence, £150-£200.. that is half your DA course saved just on the gear yo don't need.

Expect to replace to as you go along, and as needs must of as funds permit. But, army-surplus, will tend to last longer before you need to replace it than entry level 'My First Motorcycle Outfit' grade bike gear.

But remember, Training helps you avoid crashing, gear, just softens the blow a bit when you do, and You ONLY have to buy the training one... it lasts a life-time!

Go get some of that, and the rest will follow.

Thanks for telling every-one what I didn't say... a-gain....

'Safety Wear' doesn't make you 'safe'... not getting to 'danger' in the first place is what makes you 'safe'!

Meanwhile, JUST because a pair of boots say 'motorcycle boots' on the box, doesn't mean that they offer any more 'crash-protection' than a pair that say anything else.

DOES tend to mean that pro-rata they can put a bigger price ticket on it, because they have to put as much to design and manufacture, if not more for the 'specialist market' where they are not so likely to generate the volume sales to defray it, though.

And 'cheap Gear' is cheap gear. Leather is no fucking good if when you come off, its not between your skin and road. Cheap leather is likely to be thin leather, and that is likely to tear in an impact, or wear through rather quickly, or its likely to not be so well stitched, and seam a likely to burst, exposing flesh. Similar effects all gear. leather or textile. Armour? Again, no good if its not there, 'cos it can shift in the lining, or the garment comes apart at the seams.

So, for a given spend, and particularly at the budget end of the market, you are likely to get as much practical 'crash protection' for your money NOT buying gear marketed as 'dedicated' bike wear.

Pad up with layers. An Arran sweater might not have the abrasion resistance of Gortex, BUT, its thick, its padding to soften the impact a bit, and its more 'stuff' to get worn away by abrasion, it still offers 'protection' even though it doesn't have 'Belstaff' or 'Dianese' on the label! And if your granny has given you one every Christmas for the past ten years, and they are just sitting in the bottom draw? That's CHEAP protection! But its also warm, and its comfy and it doesn't have sharp edges to cut into your arm!

Old fashioned common sense, it goes a long way... and as far as bike gear goes, can take you a lot further than a credit card and the misguided notion that you HAVE to have all the gear to be 'safe'.

Same Common sense I offer in my 'Focus', that, as usual you wish to substitute with the counter to your own opinion, rather than what I have actually SAID; is put your money into training to learn how NOT to fall the fuck off, rather than worrying about what will happen when you do, and spending lots of money on 'riding gear' to fall off in!

I have a quite nice set of T-Pro armour, actually..... if I believed it didn't need to be on the shopping list, why would I have bought it?

Again, as comment to Matt if you wish to offer my opinion, PLEASE make it MY opinion, not merely the counter to the one you wish to present.

Gear can be quite good... and nice to have the the shopping list AFTER getting some training and learning to ride without crashing....

'Passive Safety'... good grief! Sorry, I call a crash hat a fucking crash hat, its only any fucking good when you crash! Passive? Passive.. isn't that a 'nice' term? 'Safety-Helmet' its 'Passive Protection'.. sounds so friendly, so non aggressive, non-confrontational so comforting, 'passive' you dont have to do anything, dont worry about t, JUST get your cheque-book out and buy it.... Sorry,this is endemic of consumer society and indoctrination that there is a product for every problem, and all you need is 'buy' the solution rather than learn anything or do anything.

The 'popular perception' benefits commerce rather better then the consumer, me thinks...

Safe-Max... "if worn correctly so that it stays in position,"(Well there's an instant get out clause!) "can make a huge difference. In a low speed commuter collision where you whack a car bumper or a kerb or something, it can mean the difference between bruising or getting in the ambulance.

Difference between bruising and an ambulance? Really? Vague, nebulous, incredibly refutable.

But HEY, suggests a problem, feeds the fear, and then offer a ready made solution, for JUST £110 the price of four tanks of petrol!

Are you selling the stuff with that e-bay add, and do you do wonder kitchen cleaning products too? Rolling Eyes "Persic Washes Whiter".. whiter than what? Coffee granuals? Mud?

Its straight out of the 'Lets sell this Safety thing' school of thinking.

Falling off hurts. end of.

Protective apparel wont stop you getting hurt. Even the very best dedicated riding apparel, wont stop you getting hurt.

At best, it MAY save SOME hurt, in SOME crash scenarios.. this is not 'trivialising' the topic or denying that any 'riding gear' is of any use... it is putting it into perspective.

Likewise suggesting that being some-what 'sensible' and using some common sense to choose more 'appropriate' outdoor wear, NOT necessarily marketed as 'dedicated bike gear' can offer as much useful and practical.. 'passive protection', as 'cheaper' marketed to biker's apparel, too, is not trivialising the topic, but putting its 'worth' into perspective.

Don't want to get hurt? Dont ride like a dick! Don't expect every other fucker on the rod to do what they are supposed to and look out for your arse, take SOME responsibility for your own safety, DON'T delegate it to the Debit-Card, and stick your head in a posh hat and think that means you have safety covered... you don't!

That bit of wisdom is not fashionable, doesn't pander to consumer mentalities or commercial imperatives, and I have ever expected it to be accepted blindly.... GOOD

If it makes a newb consider an alternative to the 'approved' doctrine' and start thinking a bit for themselves my objective has been achieved!

Stop crunching numbers, start crunching cogs!

Go get your DAS booked.
Go learn something.
Go RIDE something.
Start getting some-where.
Make something a reality... a licence...
The rest will follow as course.
AND if you MUST keep planning and plotting, the 'doing' should help inform the schemes as you go, and probably far better than buyer's guides and brochures or even us lot!

Yes they do......
16 year-olds get a thrill from riding mopeds for gawds sake & 17 year olds think a 125 is awesome after that, and a warped cognoscenti have discovered that the oft ridiculed tiddler derided and not taken seriously by so many doesn't have to be taken seriously, and a little bike, of limited performance, you not only can, but are almost compelled to ride to the ragged edge of its capabilities, just to make adequate progress, rather than sat on something with a shear excess of performance, you can rarely even use, let alone exploit very often, is actually very demanding, very engaging, incredibly rewarding, and ultimately a heck of a lot more fun, than sat little more than a passenger with influence, on something that could go very very fast, without any real effort required to do so.

125's can be and often are as fast as any other motorcycle is legally allowed to go in this country, can break just as many speed limits and other road laws, and face the exact same dangers faced by any other bike of any capacity along the way. They just have a smaller hole in the engine where fire happens!

To-Be-Honest, the list of test travesties, suggest to me, a rider that the examiner has failed because it obviously hasn't 'clicked' with him, and a bit of time on a tiddler, biting back the ego and expectation and aspiration, and doing a little learning actually may be no bad thing.

OP's commentary and ire at not being granted the pass he is convinced he deserves, suggestions that his attitude and aspirations are askew as much as anything, and the examiner has picked up that as well.

If you have left eough room for some-one to stuff a car up the inside on a bend?!?!?! Yeah... that sounds like pretty poor road positioning!

What is the relevence of the bloke that pased driving a BMW, and what is it that suggests they are an arsehole? Passing you, or driving a BMW or both?

Err.. lost control.. yeah..... you did the e-stop on mod 1, right? So, on Mod 2, on the road, you binned it! Not Good!

And again, what is the pertinance of what caused you to perform an e-stop? And how does that suddenly warrant a derogatory description of her as a blind old biddy? Most car drivers dont pay that much attension to anything on the roads and even fewer pay much attenson to bikes, how was this one any different?

It's a pretty typical every day senario, you are expected to have the ablity to contend with 'safely' every day, as a qualifed regular rider!

But, oh, boo-hoo, you paid for an expensive DAS Mod-2and dd't get what you hoped for your money, so, blame the other driver, blame the boot, blame the weather, blame the leaves... and argue with the examiner!

So, in your vast experience of failng tests, some-how you believe that your opinion of what is requred to pass a motorcycle test, is more authoratitive than the bloke who'se not just a qualified rider, but qualified examiner?

Err, yeah... you wren't in fit state to ride, what's the problem? Do you thik the examer should have accepted a note from mummy you were ill that day, ad gven you a pass cert out of pitty?

Suggestion that you shouldn't have undertaken alterative manouver by the examiner, implies that at source, your judgement was in error, and you either shouldn't have passed the car to start with, or you actually did have the time to safely complete that manouver before tackling the roud-about.

But again, as learner you consider your opinion of higer merit than the examiner.

IF you performed your 'alternatve' manouver without causing hazard, it should't have been automatc fail, so either you did cause hazard, and made another road-user change speed or direction, or the way you undertook your alternative manouver, contained enough instances of inconsstency or slack practice to rank up and add to minors on the ticket.

There's a lot more not beng told in ths list than there is, and what there is, is a lot of ire at the examier, who didn't give you the ticket you'd hoped for, rather than any sense that you have learned from his comments

Back to tiddlers... in this instance, if OP doesn't just give up, then a little humility and time on a tiddler, getting some real road experience, learning just how often we have to contend with arsehole BMW drivers and blind old biddies, necrotic on a schedule bus-drivers, rubble scattering tipper trucks, random kiddie carriers and the terror-taxis, could be a pretty useful bit of learning experience, learning to actually anticipate these regular and frequent hazards, and contend with them, rather than look for 'Thrills' and excuses, could be well worth-while.

[bhinso]

[Crumbso]

[Ste]

Public roads are not a race track or theme park; if thrills or exiting life-style activities are sought, then, there are plenty, from jet-skis, to hang-gliders, to roller-coasters, or casinos, or amusement arcades, or massage parlors, or or or ad-infinitum.

If that 'excitement' s what the OP craves, then maybe, yeah, he should give up, he's looking for the wrong thing in the wrong place, with the wrong attitudes and the wrong expectations, before he even starts...

Otherwise, There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy..

The difference between the 14.5 or 14.7 and the 15 'dead' quoted power of some 125's and licence regs is down to the conversion from Kw to BHP and how much 'rounding' the editor of whatever is being quoted decided to apply!

15bhp, at best might get you to a heady 70mph... which you might also get from something qith a mere 125 quoted bhp... a few tenths of a horse power is NOT going to make much odds to anything one way or another IF any-one even bothers to try measure it les start arguing over where and how they tried measuring it, and the experimental accuracy' of whatever they tried measure it with!

Just buy a 'standard' (or as close to standard as you can get!) road legal 125... and worry more about NOT CRASHING! That's the real issue on an L-Plate... or even a full licence TBH!!!

Oh-Kay.. There are 65million people in the UK, and over half of them hold a driving licence.

There are approximately 35 million vehicles, of all types taxed for road use in the UK. Aprox 85% of them private cars... so there's actually a few more cars in the country than people with licences to drive them!

Only 3.5% of road-taxed-vehicles are motorbikes.. that's just over a million motorcycles, of ALL types and displacements.

Curiously, there are actually more people in the UK with a full motorcycle licence, let alone those with provisional entitlement who might ride a 125 on CBT, which is like, well, EVERY BODY! than there are bikes for them to ride!

Sales figures will tell you that about half of all motorcycles sold in the UK, are 'big-bikes' over 125cc... so there's only about half a million learner-legals you might buy or ride. And you want a motorbike...... yeah... same sales figures will tell you that about 2/3 of the learner-legals sold each year are scooters and mopeds.... This means that there are only something like, 150,000 learner-legal motor-bikes in the country...

125's live hard lives! And they are generally owned by know-nothing 'learners' who know about as much about looking after them as they do riding them, and built down to a cost dis-proportionally still higher than their meager performance, performance... they are NOT the most durable machines in existence... ANY of them, let alone debating better QC'd Jap-Brand bikes vs the majority of Learner-Legals built down to an even lower quality level for the Asian markets in China!

The anticipated service life of a 125 is 'around' 7 years or 30K miles.. and many, particularly the lower quality generic chink made offerings, struggle to make even that, an awful lot are 'scrap' at thier first MOT at 3 years...

Little heads-up; many of the generic Chinese offerings are blagged through UK registration procedures on a few loop holes. Many are NOT sold as road going motorcycles, they are sold 'technically' as a box of spare-parts. They are even delivered as such, with instructions to put together, and then 'self registered' by the buyer for road use, on paperwork that declares them to be the same 'type' as already 'type-approved' to avoid SVA testing, and 'brand new', by the importer. It is a dodge to avoid new vehicle tax as well as retain the 3-year MOT exemption of a new vehicle.

The common 'con' though here is, the buyer doesn't always know this... they wheel aparently brand new 'road' bike out of a dealers, and believe they have bought a road-vehicle.. when in fact what they bought was a box of spares... and paid the dealer's mechanic to follow the assembly instructions to turn those bits into a motorbike, and then been given a bunch of paperwork, and told where to sign, for the dealer to post to DVLA in the buyer's behalf, to 'register' as a self-built vehicle!

And dealers have become a lot cuter at hiding that con, where they still employ it; BUT anything that sells for under £1500 'new' is likely still being blagged through the regs.

A lot of these self-registered, dealer assembled 'kit' bikes might struggle to pass a UK MOT the day they are given a number-plate... seriously, I have been brought bikes with delivery miles only on them, that have loose head-race bearings, handle-bars that foul the tank or snag cables, have loose wheel bearings, or missing chain guards, even in one case a missing ruddy split link ON the chain, among other obvious MOT failing faults!

"Take it back the dealer" advice is also not often all that useful in such cases; they argue that the bike was 'accepted' by the buyer... when it was just a kit of bits... what they have done to it since.. in 100 miles is down to them! And the 'warranty' only covers parts... not assembly.... so they may not get much joy having stuff fixed there; the warranty effectively may not be worth the paper its printed on, A-N-D you are reliant on thier good-will for anything... some MAY be helpful... but dont bank on it!

You have been warned!

Back on topic. In total, about 150,ooo 125 motorbikes in this country you might ride. Each has approximately a 7 year service life, and will on average be offered for sale about once every two years. So, 75,ooo 125's might make it into the market place each year.... barely half of them are likely to be advertised; they will instead be traded around works canteens and college car-parks. So you may find possibly 30,ooo bikes, every-where and anywhere from in dealer's showrooms, in the auto-trader, MCN small ads, and all the way down to post-cards in the news-agents, the length and breadth of the country.

At any one time? Well, more sell in the summer months, especially around college start time in September, and in the spring when the sun starts shining, maybe April/May time. But, on average? You will only ever have, maybe 2ooo 125's 'for-sale' in any month, and of them, probably barely 1ooo you will actually find advertised... of THEM... how many will be in expensive paid-for adds in the likes of Auto-Trader or MCN will be few, and you wont find many more in 'free' adds like Gumtree.. which is notorious for stolen bikes and scammers...

But Bottom line... 1000 bikes! Nation wide, you MAY find adverts for... and of them? likelihood that any you DO find are well out of walking distance, or even an easy bus-ride.. and even if you DO luck in and find one you might get to, reasonably easily... there's 30+ MILLION folk in the country who ALL have the licence that would let them ride it; of them, around 100,000 who would want to.. and half of them will have the money to buy it... and they ALL want a bargain... and get disappointed by the general 'state' of offerings when they find them.

Its simple supply and demand.. There are simply about 50 times the number of buyers than bikes for them to buy.... so you WILL pay a premium for a 125, and you WILL have to open your horizons about how much you will have to pay, and how far you may have to travel to find one, and lower your expections on just how 'wonderful' a bike you might get for your money.

It's not like cars, where the market is 'saturated' and there are more available than there are folk who might drive them, and they cant as easily be stuck in a shed or under the stairs when the tax runs out, and old clunkers might be given away to save the Money-With-Menaces demand from DVLA.... A-N-D the streets are litterly littered with examples offered for sale.

You want a bike... you got to do a bit more leg-work, which means getting OFF the internet; looking in newsagents windows at them post-card ads, talking to folk in works canteens or car-parks, using the grape vine to find those bikes NOT generally advertised.

You HAVE to widen the search to a bit further than your local high-street, and be prepared to travel to look at offerings... AND be prepared to travel fast to get to them before other folk with cash in hand do.

A-N-D you have to be prepared for a LOT of frustration, finding old heaps with optimistic price tags, when you get there.. AND be prepared to pay one of those optimistic buy-prices for a bike that's probably NOT your ideal..

CBR's, YZF's, etc... yeah! They are pemium priced japanese brand learner-motorcycles. What's a YZF-R125 these days? A Tad under Five grand in the show-room? There have been plenty of times when YZF's and CBR's have sat on the dealers floor with a price tag higher than something like a CB500 or SV650... and offered on atractive finance terms folk have actually paid it! And interest!

But, the premium Japanese brands account for barely 1/2 of new 125 bike sales, most of them scooters, and most of what's left, the more mundane models like CBF's and YBR's they flog in volume to the CBT schools and commuters, not the inspirational models like the YZF!

Of the very limited offerings on the 2nd hand bike market to start with? There's going to be even less of these sort of bikes to choose from! Even less you might strike a bargain on... A-N-D... this type of bike, selling on looks of assumed 'speed' tend to sell to buyers more concerned with looking cool and going quick than looking after them! They tend to be even more thrashed-trashed-and-crashed than the typical 125 Learner-Legal.

They were NOT a bargain in the show-room. Second hand, the depreciation doesn't make them an awful lot cheaper, and with typical 'wear and tear', even less of a good deal, even at prices higher than that of a 'cheap' chink, brand new, you could just be buying hassle!

Take the hit, and sign on the line, for a new, premium 125 on the knock? End of the day, you aren't buying a bike, you are paying for the privilege of looking after it!

Type will command the highest loading on insurance, so you will likely be paying exhorbitantly for the privilidge of the things upkeep before you begin, and at the end of the day, risk is it WILL be nicked and/or you WILL crash it, and it will be that much more expensive to fix or replace.

It will be far from a 'cheap' motorbike, and with new-bike depreciation chucked into the mix, a very expensive way to pretend to look cool and pretend to go fast...

Really... nothing looks cool with an L-Plate, and few are fooled a 125 is anything more by one! IF they even LOOK, let alone care!

SMIDSY "Sorry-Mate-I Didnt-See-You" is the typical motorcycle accident... if them that are supposed to be looking where they are going and paying attension to other traffic just DONT.. then who else will?

Most REALLY wont give two hoots for how fantastic you think you look. Most, IF they bother to look at all, will merely think "Idiot!" They could even explain it! "WHY would any sane person choose to be out in the wet and the cold and the miserable, dodging myopic bus drivers, when they could be ON that bus, warm and dry and not suffering helmet hair?!?" They will NOT share your fantasies about speed and cool believe me! EVEN if they have the first bit of enthusiasm and know-how for bikes.... "Oh, L-Plate... wanker-wannabee" they will NOT be impressed.

YBR? Anyone looks at that... "Sensible! Cheap reliable wheels that! And just as fast!" Again, IF they have any interest and savvy about bikes... they will understand, and not offered any pretence, see the 'reason' behind it.... Still few who WILL actually look, and even fewer who will know what they are looking at... but still... that more 'sensible' bike will look better to them who do, and care.

And it its all good from there; it will be cheaper to buy, in the show room, and even more so second hand. Better chance its been a bit better looked after, too, and it will be cheaper to insure, cheaper to fix and maintain, and go just as slow... still probably wont be much of a bargain... B-U-T... can still beat bus-fares if you have a LITTLE bit of savvy and dont thrash, trash and crash the thing.

But it IS all about getting your expectations in line with reality... paying your money and taking your chances.

If you are old enough to get an A2 licence or full ride-what-you-like 'A' then, dodging the learner-legal mire altogether; paying up front to do a course and get a full licence and then a big bike has a LOT to offer.

Because far fewer folk have licences to ride them, and so many more who do, dont just want 'cheap wheels' to get to work, but a toy for the week-end, there's plenty more big-bikes on offer; as they are more often owned by not so know-nothing riders, and far more often 'pampered' play-things cosseted in garages most of their life, only used on high-days-and-holidays, you stand far better chance of finding a bike that's in much better general condition for your money, and often a lot LESS money, both to buy AND insure, than you will looking at Learner-Legal 125's.

The insurance on my 750, is about 2/3 the price each year than it is on my 125... with a full licence, JUST because its not a 125 and in the highest crash and theft claim band.

Take the loading on younger, newer riders, AND the loading on unqualified provisional licence holders, and IF you are old enough to get a licence for a bigger bike, that alone, can off-set the price of a DAS course to get the licence to ride one, very quickly. Picking cheaper big bike, then can add even more to that.

A-N-D, it doesn't matter how 'fast' a YZF-R125 may look... it ISN'T! And never will be!

The fastest of the fast 125's, were the Cagiova Mito and Aprillia RS125 two strokes; in truly unrestricted form, where they 'just' about scraped 30bhp and a few might have managed to crack a genuine 100mph. Both hold Production bike 125 speed records of just about 101mph from different accrediting bodies, to claim to be the makers of the ton-up-tiddler, but they were specially prepared limited production models. Most over the counter examples could rarely crack the ton... got close... as long as they didn't blow up... BUT... that's the fastest of the fast... 125's... that REALLY just aren't all that fast. That sort of speed is about as quick as a thirty odd year old Honda CB250 four-stroke single, 'commuter' bike! And you dont have to hunt very far in the buyers guides to find that almost anything over 250, even the most humble of offerings is as or an awful lot faster than even those quick-tiddlers....

YZF-R125, four-stroke? Yeah. It claims the full quota of Learner-Legal A1 complient 15bhp as other 'premium' 125's. Unlike the old two-strokes, that is also ALL it was ever designed to make, and even the best tuners, chucking loads of time, money and experience at the job, and even breaching 125 licence regs boring the buggers out close to 200cc, can't get more than 20bhp from them, if that! AND they dont have the reputation for reliability they should for the show-room price, even when standard!

Any-which way round you try and cut it, 125's are NOT quick, and never will be. Even the fastest of the fast, non leaner legal two-strokes.. when they don't need yet another top end rebuild!

You get far more oomph for your dosh, and far fewer hasles with a bigger bike, and all you need for that is a licence to ride it.... if you are old enough.

If not? Well, being young sucks. But enjoy it whilst you can! Being old dont have much to commend it either! And 'cheap' biking is but small compensation for aching joints and the onset of alseimers... which MAY in many ways be a bit of a blessing! But still.

So, if you are stuck by age, to 125's... real in the ambition and aspiration and expectations a LOT.

Think long and hard about what you want a bike for, and whether its as toy or transport. If toy? Well toys cost. If you can afford it, what the heck... folk spend gawd knows how much each year to chase a plastic ball about a field, or dangle a bit of string in a puddle trying to outwit a fish and call it 'sport'....

Riding a motorbike, on the publis road, is NOT really a 'sport'! Dodging SMISY's and weeja indicating busses may be a challenge, but its one in which points mean penalties not prizes! You want 'sport' take it to the track! You'll get more fun and more sadle hours of unadulterated fun for your money than you will likely find, 'playing at it' on the public road... where all you are likely to get for it is gravel rash and a big bill!

Of your liesure time and disposeable income, IS a motorbike REALLY the moist 'fun' yuou could have for your money, compared to say going to alton Towers, or to a night-club?

To get to and from? ANY motorvehicle has a hard time to justify its price against bus fares. Little bikes, might just about beat them... but only if you are careful. One off and a ripped water-proof can completely chuck the careful accounting to the wind... and you will NOT get 'free' fun on the back of it, expecting a bike to be both toy AND transport... in the compromise you will only get more expensive transport, and maybe, if you are lucky, a 'little' fun on the side, that STILL wont be 'free', will still be adding costs, that wont provide as much fun as you might get for that money elsewhere.... like down pub!

BUT, advice is the generic, best bang for your buck learner bike, is a Yamaha YBR125, bought second hand, for around £1500 or so, at about 3-4 years old with a fresh MOT on it. Its not a lot of bang for your buck, and it still seems a lot of buck for very little bang, but it IS about the optimum, against which all else should be measured.

YZF's and CBR's etc, may all offer more 'looks' for your money, but will beg a lot more money for them, and wont deliver much if any more go for it. Cheaper generic Chinky bikes, in the show-room, may be as cheap, and a warranty may make them appealing, but they will tend to cost you as much for less oomph and more hassles, along the way, when the resale price and more maintenance is factored into the all-in equation. Start looking at stuff in the sub £1000 used-bike price range, and you are into barrel scraping territory, and you are going to be buying previous owners problems; you MAY get lucky but more likely you wont, and at that price, on a bike likely over 3 years even for a chink, or a better lasting Jap-brand bike, that at that price is likely tending towards the tag end of anticipated 7 year 30K mile service life, if not already beyond it, what you don't pay upfront in purchase price you almost certainly will end up paying on repairs.

All depressing stuff, I am afraid... but welcome to the real world ofv biking! Make what you will of it. There's no such thing as a free-lunch, as they say. Makes your choices, pays your money, ans takes your chances...And the best of luck with it!

Schools don't routinely 'restrict' little 125's that are already only able to make approx 2/3 of the power permitted by Learner-Regs.... STUDENTS on the other hand....... as hintimated, 125's live hard lives in the hands of know-nufrfink Learners, and school-bikes see a succession of them, all knowing the least!

To be fair, a 2nd hand school bike, probably isn't the worst bet in the world if you come across one; They do tend to get bashed and crashed a fair bit and get to look rather more 'worn' than average, rather more quickly, putting buyers off; but schools depend on the things to earn thier crust, and they tend NOT to be know-nuffing learners, and are a bit more contientiouse about maintenance on the things. They might have rather a lot of dents and scraped chrome... but under that, all the bits that need oiling or adjusting, tend to have been. They 'may' in a world where bargains are few or far between, be as close as you might get to one, if you dont too much care about the scrapes and dents.

Meanwhile, back on topic... DO NOT take your CBT experience as particularly indicative of life on your own, on your own bike.. it is to a large degree a bit of a baptism by fire.

First off, the course should have been at least 7-8 hours long, and you AUGHT to have spent at least half of that hands-on arse in saddle. Regs demand at least two-hours 'road-time' for starters, after all the play-ground antics and listening to the safety schpiel.... It is, for many a very long, tiring and stressful day... when they are anxious, nervous, and unfamiliar with what they are doing,m using muscles not before used or used in ways never before used, ALL whilst trying to remember what the bloke said, and tense and nervouse trying to do it... IT IS tiring... and does NOT in any way flatter the potential 'comfort' of a little bike, and you will likely think, "If THIS is what I have to suffer, ever day, twice a day... SOD THAT!" But, like I say, its not indicative, because you aren't familiar and so much is asked and expected of you.

When I was 19, I thought little of jumping on the 125 and heading off 250 miles in one jaunt on the thing.... mostly because I had no other choice! Well, I did... I could have stayed home! A dozen years on, the rose tint-eye-sight of 'age' did make me think twice, and a ruddy great behemoth made everything seem sooo much easier.

Its only actually relatively recently, running a 125 and a big bike, I have actually stopped to make a fairer comparison, and you know what? ACTUALLY makes not THAT much odds. I assumed that the tiddler was a pain in the bum on a longer run, because on the of longer run, that's what I got. I assumed it was that much better round town, because it was smaller, lighter and more nimble, and popping the shops, a lot less of a chore.. until I had to 'pop the shops' on the big bike and the daughter had me trundling round obscure bits of brum looking for frock-shops! The pain in the arse, wasn't so much from how big the bike is, or even how far you go on it, it IS down to how much work you have to do... and round town, there's a lot more work to be done! Hence its less comfy in the longer run. On the long haul, little 125, even for me, 6'2" and relatively scrunched up on any smaller framed bike, actually NOT so uncomfy, as long as you aren't having to work so hard, so little between them.... but yeah... if I am popping the shops... I'll take the tidler, if I am heading a hundred miles or more into the wilds, I'll take the 750!

But, end of the day, its swings and round-abouts, b-u-t.. how comfy or tiring it is, DOES depend more on the route and the rider, than the bike. And if a 125 is all you got or all you're allowed, its lump it or stay home. You will not get a huge amount more comfort from any 125 over another.

FIFTY MILES AN HOUR! Rings an alarm bell. YEAH! A lot of folk find that. As said, unlikely the school 'restrict' a bike already 30% down on permitted power. Previouse students 'may' have blunted that a bit, raving the nuts off it and slipping the clutch trying to find the bite-point and pat-thier-head-and-rub-thier-tummy 'Slip & Drag' polava on slow speed maneuvers, that is pretty unnecessary... BUT... much more likely, YOU 'learner' will have been playing cogs, 'cos thats what you went there to learn! Got gears, must use them! It seems a sensible idea! A-N-D consequently have been over-shifting, making more work for yourself going up more gears than you need, and having to do more work still going back down them, all of which hampers being 'smooth' especially slowing for junctions...

You also will likely have had the 'notion' to change up, at lower revs, because the engine seems to be pulling quite strongly low down, and sounds like its going to do an impresion of a mills grenade when revved out..... you might also have some misguided notions that keeping the revs down, is good for either engine longevity/reliability and or ecconomy..... which, are pretty erroneous. BUT upshot is that in all liklihood you will have cogged up, all the way from first to fifth before you are doing 45mph.. and have been happy in top becouse the lever wont move any more, so you know what gear you're in! THEN you have tried to do all your acceleration from there in top... and at 50mph it will have 'just' run out of puff, and wont go no faster....

Actually, it probably WILL, you just needed to change 'down' or to have NOT changed up in the first place! Seems counter infatuation, want go faster, need higher gear, not a lower one, BUT.... Little air-cooled 125 four-stroke single, likely makes about 10bhp at about 10,ooo rpm. That IS enough to achieve 60-65mph reasonably often... BUT you need to rev the nuts off the thing in the lower gears to get AT that power and get the thing shifting. The power is roughly proportional to engine revs, so at tickover you have about 1bhp, at 2000, 2bhp, at 3,000 3bhp etc. Only takes 3bhp to go 30mph, so you can probably get the thing into top gear by then, and have enough power for it to hold road speed... it just doesn't have enough power for any acceleration.... so around 50mph in top, IF you are trying to labour up from 30 or 40 in that cog, it 'tops out'.. it doesn't make enough power... at those revs... to go faster... and let the engine rev higher, where it probably DOES have the power to pull a higher road speed.

So, you use the revs, not the gears. Ride for response. DON'T short shift, let the little feckker SCREAM! Wont kill it!" Its designed to do that, and it doesn't make enough power to do itself much harm, anyway!

Rule of thumb;
1st only from a stand still, you will run out of revs by the time you are traveling at a brisk trot... so get it up to 2nd pretty briskly, and give yourself a chance to make a less huried and smoother shift.
2nd... should take you to about 25-30mph. Slow-speed maneuvers, junctions, roundabouts, round the houses, dodging kids playing Kirby or school-run mums backing Nissan kiddie carriers off thier drives full tilt. THIS is the perfect gear to give you MOST response, either slowing or accelerating to suit such road conditions, in built up and suburban areas, mostly now displaying a 20mph speed limit.
THIRD.. is the mother of all work... should take you to around 50mph, if you thrash it a bit, but still have the stomp to pull as low as perhaps 10 or 15mph. Round town, you probably do not need another gear.. you can slap in in third and treat it like a twist-and-go, and have MOST speeding up or slowing down available to you on the throttle, and NOT have to frantically stir gear levers, jiggle clutch levers AND mess with brakes... you can do it ALL on the throttle and the throttle alone... most the time! No go uppy gears, no meed comey downey gears.. you will be a lot smoother, you will be in better control, you will get less tired having to work and jiggle and balance SO many different controls you really shouldn't have top. Around town, in 30-40 limit roads, it REALLY is the only gear you need use.
4th... to all extents and purposes this is your highway 'top' gear. It will take you from about 30/40mph to pretty much as fast as the bike is likely to go, or a couple of MPH beneath, so about 60mph. Really a little 125 isn't likely to ever go much faster under its own steam, and this gear will, let you get there, and not 'top-out' early. You will sacrifice throttle response for the extra speed, so you probably only want/need 4th on faster more open roads, where you KNOW that for a good few miles you don't have junctions or roundabouts or SMIDSY soccer mum to deal with, maybe just the odd bend, you can see, hopefully, well in advance,m and you can, for the most part STILL do all your speed changing on the throttle, not the gears... if you use the revs.
5th, is an 'over-drive'. If you have used 3rd and forth to get up to a higher 55-60mph road speed, 5th, will basically 'just' let you sacrifice all ytour throttle response, for the benefit of knocking the revs back, so it doesn't sound so strained, and some dubious presumption you are saving fuel.... and MAYBE if the road is long enough or sloped downwards enough... you might eek an extra couple of mph out of the thing, occasionally.. if its worth the while even trying. You can, almost forget you have the gear a lot of the time, it really isn't all that useful, and short0shifting ALL the way to it, as soon as you are shifting, and doing so as a matter of routiune, REALLY isn't all that helpful
to anything.

Cog down, use the revs not the gears, ride for response! If you believe that you are 'wasting' fuel letting the thing rev.. FFS how much ecconomy do you want, its a 125 f'f'sake! It ent never going to use that much fuel, and If you need save the stuff, you probably cant afford a bike at all, think twice and take the bus! You got dem revs to use, USE them!

Oh-Kay... where does that lot get us?

CBT.... you WILL have learned a heck of a lot. But, its your first lesson, only, its NOT the be-all-and-end-all, and a DL196 cert to say you have had the first lesson is NOT a licence!

Mean-while, that 1st lesson will have given you a lot to chew on, and not all of it necessarily all that helpful, and certainly not enough to easily sort wheat from chaff.

As said, your experience of a YBR on CBT is probably not particularly indicative of how you would find the same bike, on your own, on real roads, in real world situations.. A-N-D remember, it was your first leson, you still have a lot to learn, and that bike could probably have gone a lot faster had you known how to thrash it for all it can give. Not the bike, it be you.... and looking for another bike to solve the problem, probably wont, 'cos you;ll still be the one riding it!

So, back to the beginning really... YBR still represents the overall best value bench-mark learner-commuter 125 on the market. ALL 125's are slow bikes, even the fastest of the fast non learner-legal ones are, in the greater scheme of things NOT very fast bikes... and if you live in the lakes? Well, you have a lot of hills to deal with... and even more Sunday drivers peering at little smart-phone screens wondering why they don't have a signal to see google-maps, rather than an OS map they cant read or fold! And suicidal sheep... and bobble hatters, and layby hogging ice-cream vans... its a slightly different scene to riding accros brum... but same charecters, offering the same hazards, just in a different set of cloths!

And STILL you have the small matter that there's only a relatively small number of bikes possibly for sale, and up near t'wall, most of them will be hundreds of miles south of you, and you STILL have Hobsons choice over any of them.....

Likelihood you will find an 'ideal' or even 'better' 125 among st them is slim to nill, they are little bikes folk put big expectations on, they are rarely able to fulfil... BUT for what they may do, almost ANY of them can do it, and you dont need to be all that savvy to find, if not a great-deal on one, at least a better deal... you JUST need to open your horizons a bit, and be prepared to pound shoe-leather, and go find, not have it handed to you on a plate, AND with just the right amount of salt on it... you WILL have to make some compromises some-where along the line and take a little less than ideal... especially in the Learner-Legal world where as said, its a sellers market with 50-times the number of folk shopping for them than there are bikes for them to buy.

And in a world of 'slow' bikes... a couple of mph more slow REALLY is neither here nor there... as said, YOU are the biggest variable in the equation right now, not the bike, ANY bike. So, count £20 notes out, grab a news-ppaper, and go pound shoe leather to see WHATY them £20 notes MIGHT be swapped for, with an engine, and a couple of wheels.

As narrow as you can get away with, as wide as you have to... skinny tyres ACTUALLY work better on a bike.... they tilt....

If you have 30psi in a tyre that has 150lb of bike above it, then the tyre will squash until thers 5sq in of rubber in contact with the tarmac... fit wider tyres, all that will happen in that the tyre will be less squashed by the weight to get the same contact area.

Meanwhile the force that can be transmitted in pure friction is the clamping force, times the co-efficient of friction.... or how sticky the rubber....

Ie be MORe worried about how 'crap' standard YBR tyres or 'cheap' replecements may be, NOT how hick the things may be....

Narrow section tyres ACTUALLY mean that for the same level of grip, you get less change in geometry as you lean a bike, as well as less drag when trying to steer, or even in a straight line; so actually help the bike handle more netrally more lightly and generrally 'better' than fat rubber that does bog all except look good, unless the bike is heavy enough and or powerful enough to load it enough to justify that much extra rubber..... and a 10bhp 125 trust me just isn't!

And there-in lies the perversion of logic.

On 'crap' surfaces, covered in mud or gravel or oil, how sticky the tyre may be actually isn't so relevent, how fat, or more importantly not, the tyre, more so.

If you have surface slime, with tarmac beneath, then a narrow tyre has the potential to 'cut-through' that surface slime to the hard beneath, with less weight on top of it to do so..... Its like the two-ton elephant on a parquet floor vs the 6 stone woman in stiletto heels...

If you have a wide tyre on a light-weight bike, in theory the actual contact patch shouldn't be any bigger, unless the tyre pressure is lower letting the tyre squash more for the weight on it.... but that aside, then comes down to a matter of geometry, and the wider and or more squashed tyre is, it's like a blunt knife, or flat-bottomed barge, over a speed-boat, and whatever is under the tyre that may be limiting grip, is effectively trapped under the tyre, with a lot further distance to be squeegeed out of the way to let good rubber find good tar to grip.

This is how tread works... tyres that have a lot of rubber 'land' and not a lot of relief groove to let surface water get out from between that land and the tarmac, are likely to not have the wet-weather grip of a tyre with less land and more relief groove, so that surface water doesn't have to be shifted so far to be squeegeed into a groove and channeled out the way, and more space in that channel to let it get out of the way.

Basically, your fatter tyre, probably didn't help you keep the bike upright and help stop slides, and likely did as much to make them slides in the first place!!!

As said, as thin as you can get away with, as fat as you need. You ONLY need a fatter tyre if you have more weight to support, and enough power that a thinner tyre will deform under the torque... and a 125-150Kg ish bike with a mere 10bhp isn't likely to qualify on either count!

They probably should.. or simply not have taken the knoblies off a perfectly good MX bike to fit Road-Race slicks to the things, to make a mongrel of compromises with table top landing gear for suspension to tear around a relatively flat dirt-track!?!?!?

But then that's 'Marketing' for you...... the science don't matter very much to the sales figures and profit/loss book....

And if customers scare themselves having a tyre do a little jidder, and will use that to convince themselves they need EVEN fatter tyres as well as how much of a riding godd they must be to have 'saved' the full on tank-slappa... so much the better for floging even more bikes with overly wide rubber specced by the marketing men......

Seriously, a pretty average clubman push bike racer, weighs in at something like 80Kg; the actual bike adding about as much as a 'family' size bag of snax! And on a dyno, they can record a 'sustained' power-output more than a moped engine... 3bhp or so..... and for what they would term 'briefly' as in a mock 'break' or sprint, lasting maybe five minutes, as much as 8-10bhp.... And they put that sort of power to the road through tyres that are a mere 10mm in cross section, and perhaps only 2-3mm thick on the crest! They have to pump the things up to three figure psi's to stop the rider's weight crushing them on such a tiny contact patch, measured in square mm rather than square inches!

You REALLY don't 'need' 140 or more section rubber to support the weight or handle the paltry power of a 125cc motorbike, or stop it 'skiddding'!!!!

You don't even need that much rubber, 'really' to support a 200Kg bike with rider and pillion and luggage, and handle 100+bhp..... Just a bit of savvy.. like looking at the road for surface chit and NOT riding through it, banked over at speed, if you can help it! THAT no tyre width, compound or tread pattern can compensate for!

You put knoblies on tarmac? REAL knoblies, that is, not designer 'Adventure-sport' road tyres or old fashioned block-treads..... a) you wont be on them for long.... you'd swear some-one had fitted square wheels before your fingers went numb b) they wouldn't last very long before you had a slick, at least in the middle c) it would be even odds whether you'd be cursing either ahead of dreaded 'tread creep'.... and they STILL wouldn't do bog all for 'grip' even on a slurried road, because the knobles are designed to dig into peat and transmit force through actual mechanical contact and viscous resistance, not friction, and to do that the actual knobles are often as hard a rubber as they can get to act like paddles, and not just bend like a tea-spoon when put under load!

But hey, don't let the facts disued you from your prejudices, the marketing men wouldn't be able to meet their payments on the holiday home!

What about them? Its a very artificial class, to start with, picking a highly specialised dirt bike, and trying to mod it for road use, then find a course that the resultant mule favours!

It would be like taking a Massey-Furgason tractor.... fitting funny-car dragster tyres, and an turbo-charged F1 engine, and trying to race it in a World Rally Championship.... crying 'foul' when a Subaru kicks its arse and then writing a set of rules, specifically for F1 engined, drag tyred farm tractors to race in!

BUT, AFAIK, they use the softest, stickiest tyre permitted by the regulations for the class... same as any other.. they have just written them rules to suit the special they have created!

Though, perversely, a lot IS still down to them marketing men, who really DGAS how quick a bike can get round a track, or what is technically the best way to do so, but flogging spectator tickets or TV rights and getting the poor buffoons on the bikes top put on a show... where having them slip and slide about is all so much more spectacular than if they did it properly!

In trials, where the 'regulation' block treads size and tread pattern is very well defined in FIM/ACU law, and the 'trials-slicks' we use are that exact same tread pattern, moulded in a compound soft enough you can literally twist a 'knobble' a quarter turn on itself with your fingers! May look like the 'klnoblies' they fitted as OE to bikes like the DT125 in the show-room, but that's only because of the regs, in the case of the DT for C&U and for trials in the hand-book.

As to 'knoblies' I suspect your idea of what may be one is probably also little errant; BUT see above, they are designed so that bludy great spikes of rubber 'dig in' to a soft surface and provide traction through that actual physical/mechanical interface, not friction.

They don't work very well on a hard surface where they cant do that, or on a surface that's either very shallow or very loose, like say sand, where they wont find enough purchase to dig and and drive, just dig in.... More agressive block-treads, or duel-purpose tyres, really just AREN'T knoblies... or work in the same way, or on such veriety of alternative surfaces, hard or loose.

One of the reasons for the trials 'slick' is actually to cover the greatest veriety of surface with a single tyre; from hard rocks, to moss covered bolders, to shale or sandy stream beds, often with the stream still in them, through peat and bog and clay, wet or dry, all the way to tarmac... where they do still work pretty well, actually, though tread-creep and the blocks bending when you lean at any speed can be a little disconcerting...... they just dont last many miles yards!!!!!

But if you want to ponder the anomalies, consider why, in road racing, where a on a hard tarmac surface a sticky 'slick' tyre, of any size is always preffered for maxiumum traction, why, in the wet they actually use a hot poker to cut relief grooves in the things and give them a tread pattern!?! And still often use narrower section tyres to stilletto through the surface water better. Regs would let them use a wide, untreaded slick if they were daft enough, and there have been enough GP's where riders have... often because they have usually wrongly predicted a short shower and drying track, and guessed an advantage as rain stops and track starts to dry, or been out in the rain, on full-slicks, and made the decission not to loose extra time coming in for an 'early' or probably an 'extra' tyre change, but man-it-out on what they are wearing.

Which is all more 'chaff'... what is used or done in practice, for various reasons isn't always, and in fact can rarely be, what is predicted as the 'ideal' by the science.... but that doesn't make the science 'wrong'. The science is the science, and the laws of motion the laws of motion... A-N-D what we always get back to, is that for ALL the various variables in applying that science, first ultimate grip is by far and away most significantly effected by how soft the tyres is.. next, the money-men almost always get the last say, not the wingineers!

Lol! We were muggering about with the things back in the early 90's when I was still at college!
One mate had a road-legal CR250 with TZ wheels, after bending a bus with a VT500, and reckoned it was a lot easier on his broken back!
Another had a Miaco 'Bitza' created with a lot of left over Triumph bits, cos they wouldn't give him the miles to ride home to Somerset on a 'classic' policy for his trumpet.
Meanwhile I never said they were shit, or they weren't 'fun'... just an anathma, with a race class created arse about face to suit the mutant special, rather than a bike actually designed for competitive advantage....

Your first post, barely a week ago, was asking about CBT and security, and was pretty neurotic. In the week since, you have posted 36 other messages, still fretting about everything and anything, from whether its legal to wear a web-cam on your helmet, to leaving a scooter at a pub while you have lunch!

Step back, take a GOOD long look at ALL the stuff you are fretting about. and TRY and get a bit of perspective on it all!!!

There is 'some' excuse provided by admission you are a software mushroom, likely unaccustomed to life in natural lighting, but still... in the real world there is a HUGE region of uncertainty.... in which you are trying to discover absolutes, that simply don't exist.

At some point, you have to just get on the ruddy bike and ride it, and be ready to take what comes.

Motorcycling is inherently a risky-business. So is life!

Biking is not as 'risky' as so many seem to suggest emotionally, either because of the potential red-mist 'thrill' they get from it, or the blood-red carnage they imagine from stories of high-speed crashes, but still... it IS risky.

But as the old saying, if you cant do the time, don't do the crime. The only way to avoid the potential risks is to just not take them. Otherwise its risks vs rewards. Which starts with actually knowing what the 'real' risks are, and putting them in proper context.

You, NEWB, ink barely dry on your DL196, are at most risk from yourself as anything right now. FACT. Take heed of it!

That band new pride and joy, most expensive purchase you have ever made, scootay, IS I am afraid to say, MOST likely to get scratched, scoffed or other-wise damaged or rendered useless BY YOU. Not by some-one else not doing what they should, or doing something they shouldn't. Not by a scrote chiseling the locks or heaving it in the back of a van. YOU are the most likely person to cause yourself calamity right now.

Whether that is fumbling the thing onto the stand, to riding into the back of a bus... most likely cause of damage to that machine, right here, right now, is simply your inexperience and pretty obvious significant lack of confidence and competence.

Hint, accidents happen when competence and confidence are inordinately out of balance.

And, I am afraid to tell you that for ALL your 'sensible' trying to do the right thing attitude, right here, right now, THAT is actually THE most dangerouse thing you have to deal with. Accept or reject that advice.. that is a fact.

Now, I don't much like stereo-types, but they can be helpful. In your head, you are doing a fantastic job of convincing yourself that you are doing 'everything right'.. you are applying 'caution', and you believe that that caution will avoid danger... and IF calamity strikes, you will site all that 'caution' and be convinced that you cannot be to blame, that you could't possibly have avoided the calamity... because YOU were being 'cautious'.

You are displaying all the traits of the 'Nervouse-Nancy' rider type. The 'calamity' must fall on the 'Revin-Kevin' rider type... and to your way of thinking ATM, probably, deservedly so.

Revin-Kevin, has a devil-may-care attitude, never looks before he leaps; rides recklessly into danger, probably seeking 'high-speed' thrills above all; doesn't bother to lock the bike up properly, why should he, its insured? Probably rides in jeans and an anorak, no 'proper' biking wear, he obviously doesn't care about even his own safety! So doesn't bother to change the oil or adjust the chain or anything, who cares! Sort it if it breaks... tut-tut-tut... he's an accident looking for a place to happen, isn't he?

NOW... I am sorry to say, BUT.... Revin Kevin, will ride into danger and probably never even know the risk they are taking until its too late.... and unfortunately will probably 'bounce'. They will usually do something 'daft' and usually in a single vehicle accident where they only have themselves to blame; they'll catch a dose of road-rash, skuff up the paint work and bend the bars. They'll hobble out the hedge, pick the bike up, and probably try riding it home with a buckled wheel! And people will likely say "Well we all knew he had it coming!" Because of the number of close calls he'd bragged about before hand.

BUT... Rev-Kev wont be majorly mangled. They'll live, and they'll probably ride again... maybe chalking it up to experience and being a little less exuberant next time round; confidence knocked back into balance with their competence.

Nervous Nancy? Does everything 'right' or tries to. They wont 'speed'. They will slow down, and probably rather a lot, when they spot a car nose in a side turn.. which is the 'classic'... "Oooh SMIDSY! Better Beware" over slowing for the perceived hazard, they actually make it a self fulfilling prophesy! Car in side turn doesn't expect oncoming traffic to slow down... so assumes they are slowing to let them out... Are they? Aren't they? Hesitation an confusion follow... and car, pulls out... WALLOP!!! One Nervous-Nancy, on the deck, leg broke, bike under car bumper.. "But I'm a cautious rider! I wan't Speeding!" As they are bundled in the meat wagon, and they continue protesting for weeks afterwards when relatives and friends and colleagues all say "I told you so! Bikes be Dangerous!"

The types of accident Nervous Nancies get themselves into are enormous, BUT they all stem from the same over caution and imbalance of confidence and competence... Big difference between them and Revin-Kevin, is that they seldom DO learn from the usually far more severe accident that tries to knock Confidence and Competence back into kilter.... this 'over thinking' thing, continues, and they STILL cant believe that they did anything 'wrong' so there's no mistake to learn from!

This is a very very very bad situation.... ESPECIALLY if you are on CBT, on L's convncing yourself that not going and doing lessons, not going getting a licence, ASAP is actually showing your ideas of how 'cautiouse' you are, not diving in the deep end, not wanting a big-bike, spurning the power and speed that big bikes have to offer.

NOW... to return to your little deliberations....

You are NOT doing yourself any favours. The more you are researching, is actually giving yourself more to fret about, and more entrenching yourself in a mind-set erring towards over confidence and over caution, and NOT actually tackling the matter of your competance any.

The things you are fretting about, are, also all the things you 'think' you can do 'something' to effect influence over; placebo's to 'take control'... and placebo's to either accepting that there's a heck of a lot you just CANT influence or control, and the ones where you might 'do something' are NOT necessarily the ones that will have 'most' impact.

BIKES GET NICKED

Its a simple fact. If you cant accept it, sell up and catch the bus. You WILL NOT stop some-one having away with your pride and joy if they really want it!

Best locks and ground anchors in the world can be defeated. No one takes any notice of alarms, and imoblisers mean little if they can chuck the whole bike in the back of a van and tackle it at ther leisure. Garages can be broken into. There is no amout of hard securty that will garantee a bike wont be stolen. And perversely, damage they can do in the trying, can be as much or more hasle than if they succeed!

But Still.. why bother even trying, when all they have to do is break into your house and steal the keys.. or just wait until you come out to ride away and put a knife to your through, or just smack you on the back of your head with a baseball bat when you stop at a set of traffic lights!

These risks exist! If you cant accept that, and you aren't prepared for them, sell up, get the bus!

Otherwise, do what you can 'reasonably'.

Its not reasonable to start demanding that pub-landlords start installing concreted in ground anchors! They'll just tell you to eat/drink elsewhere! (FFS, that's been suggested to me by enough publican's over the years, just walking in with a skid-lid in my mitt!).

It is reasonable to look for somewhere you can chain to a cemented in fence or lamp-post or such, but if you cant, you cant. Do your best... and if bike isn't there when you get back... take the hit! You ride bike, you accept the risks that come with it!

Doesn't really matter how much you paid for the thing; whether it was brand new, whether it was the most expensive thing you ever bought, or the cheapest... you still have a long walk or to call a taxi! And shit happens! Deal with it!

MEANWHILE.... in the ranking of risks! It still remains, FAR more likely, that your reason for having a long walk or a taxi-call WONT be that the bike's bee nicked.

Its much more likely that you will have dropped it off the stand and broken a lever. Or the tarmac beneath the stand was soft....

Crikey! I took a bike I had just finished restoring for its Moment-Of-Truth, got a clean bill of health on it, and gone to pick up O/H in town, parked up to wait for her at the pub, come out an hour later and found bike with a two hour old MOT it wouldn't at that moment be able to pass, with bent bars and broken levers, on its side in the car-park.... Did some-one decide that I was taking up too much parking space try and move it? Did some scroat try and nick it? Or was the tarmac just a bit soft in the sun? We may NEVER KNOW! And you know what? CCTV footage wouldn't fix it, even if there was any! Big sign on the lamp post "All vehicles left at owners risk" But still!

YOU are the biggest risk you face right now. A Tele-Tubby-Cam on your head, wont reduce those risks none! May make you feel better about taking them... but you are still taking them... so of all the things you might do, is a telly-tubby-cam, really the most useful or appropriate?

Is fretting over how 'best' to lock your scoot at a country pub you'll be at for what, 2hrs maybe every week or so, REALLY that big a risk as to be worth THIS much fretting about?

And even if it WAS nicked... whats the real, actual 'severity'? Long walk home, or a taxi-call.

Inconvenient, yes. Gut wrenchingly annoying, yes.

BUT, you should't be bleeding. You shouldn't be DEAD! Its NOT the end of the world, its JUST hassle...

How will you get to work tomorrow? (Same way you did before you bought scootay, probably!) How will you afford another scootay? How long will the insurance take to come through? Will they give you full 'value'? All hassle, all heartache, that you could do without, BUT its STILL not the end of the world.....

Back to that SMIDSY...

Much more likely than a theft.... Tele-Tuby-Cam? Err... yeah... I am not sure that would count for an awful lot, with either the police or the insurance... certainly wont stop you bleeding in the road.... but, of what it might do, 'Prove me right!'... odds is that it wont, even if any-one looks at it, and it will remain, in a 'balance of probability'.. where YOU even if you were 100% in the right... which I very much doubt you would be, but let that slide; you were on a motorcycle... something other road-users aren't accustomed to dealing with... and on L-Plates, which unequivocally put you in the 'Know-Nothing learner' category; add a short period of riding experience, on the 'balance of probability, the scales are loaded against you before you begin, with or without Telly-Tubby-Cam footage!!!

And you are STILL bleeding in the gutter....

THIS, here and now, is the sort of stuff to be 'fretting' about!

If you aren't fretting about THAT.. whether when you fall off (& it is more 'when' than 'if' right now!) when will any-one will find you; how much it will hurt; how hard will the nurse will scrub the wounds; will they bother to give you an X-Ray, or send you home with a broken foot? ... been there, done that.... I've seen drunks admit to stepping off the pavement in-front of a bus, treated with more sympathy than some-one admitting to something as 'stupid' as riding a motorbike! IF you aren't more worried about that, and how to avoid it... then WHY the heck are you fretting about country pub parking and the legalities of telly-tubby-cams!?!?

I will strongly suggest your 'why'.. you DONT think that you can do any more than you are about SMIDSY, you DO think you can do 'something' about pub-car-park theft.. so you are expending what worry-room you have in your head, to contemplate those things you merely THINK you can do 'something' about, rather than actually tackle the ones that you might, and just accept the ones you cant or can only do little about.

Ironically, you are inverting the priorities based NOT on how real the risks or dire the consequences may be, but based on what you 'feel' you can take charge of!

You are snatching at pennies and letting the pounds blow away on the breeze!