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Islander
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PostPosted: 16:50 - 19 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
Islander wrote:
Believe or not, the data doesn't care.


That shows quite a small temp increase, which MPD pointed out and was shot down in flames for suggesting.
Data can be cherry picked, which is the basis for my point:

The world doesn't care.


It's not small relative to its effects, and once more, it's all to do with the change in rate of change - I've said it often enough.

As to cherry picking, the Met Office are a reputable organisation and provide the same datasets for use in research and climate modelling worldwide.

Still, matched against a random internet denialist site...

Oh well.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 16:53 - 19 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

HardlyDavidson wrote:
LMAO! You all take yourselves sooooo seriously over Climate Change and yet:

a) it won't literally kill us tomorrow

b) we can't do anything about it anyway!

Quote:
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference.


a) Is correct unless you happen to be a vulnerable individual in one of the areas experiencing freak weather...

b) Is wrong. We can but it has to be all of the industrial nations - I'm not optimistic about that one.

c) Imaginary sky pilot quotes? Nah. Laughing
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:04 - 19 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

HardlyDavidson wrote:
LMAO! You all take yourselves sooooo seriously over Climate Change and yet:

a) it won't literally kill us tomorrow

b) we can't do anything about it anyway!

Quote:
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference.


For me, it's not so much people taking themselves so seriously, as people's inability to have a constructive conversation with their differing views without getting all emotional and angry about it Laughing
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:06 - 19 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:

c) Imaginary sky pilot quotes? Nah. Laughing


It is my opinion that science may soon be able to explain "God" Shocked
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owl
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PostPosted: 17:09 - 19 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip YFPOS wrote:
people's inability to have a constructive conversation with their differing views without getting all emotional and angry about it Laughing


fite me yfpos
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 17:09 - 19 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip YFPOS wrote:
For me, it's not so much people taking themselves so seriously, as people's inability to have a constructive conversation with their differing views without getting all emotional and angry about it Laughing


I don't see anyone getting angry or emotional.

Are you?
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Easy-X
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HardlyDavidson



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PostPosted: 17:14 - 19 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
HardlyDavidson wrote:
LMAO! You all take yourselves sooooo seriously over Climate Change and yet:

a) it won't literally kill us tomorrow

b) we can't do anything about it anyway!

Quote:
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference.


a) Is correct unless you happen to be a vulnerable individual in one of the areas experiencing freak weather...

b) Is wrong. We can but it has to be all of the industrial nations - I'm not optimistic about that one.

c) Imaginary sky pilot quotes? Nah. Laughing


a) we're not in an area that is experiencing freak weather. Really? We supposed to care more about grubby foreigners in far away places than our own friends and family?

b) ***WE*** as in the ppl chatting here now can do precisly fuck all about climate change. The UK government can do fuck all either. Go chat to China and 'murica 'cos there's bugger all ****WE*** can do. (FFS)

c) I suppose you sneer at the Sistine Chapel and had a good larf when Notre-Dame burnt down Sad
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Islander
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PostPosted: 17:49 - 19 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

HardlyDavidson wrote:
Islander wrote:


a) Is correct unless you happen to be a vulnerable individual in one of the areas experiencing freak weather...

b) Is wrong. We can but it has to be all of the industrial nations - I'm not optimistic about that one.

c) Imaginary sky pilot quotes? Nah. Laughing


a) we're not in an area that is experiencing freak weather. Really? We supposed to care more about grubby foreigners in far away places than our own friends and family?

b) ***WE*** as in the ppl chatting here now can do precisly fuck all about climate change. The UK government can do fuck all either. Go chat to China and 'murica 'cos there's bugger all ****WE*** can do. (FFS)

c) I suppose you sneer at the Sistine Chapel and had a good larf when Notre-Dame burnt down Sad


a) We should care about all people - we're all humans after all. Well most of us anyway Razz

b) The scope of 'we' wasn't apparent - I meant the human race and I did say I wasn't optimistic... Wink

c) I did wonder whether it rattled any world views when Notre Dame went up in smoke but I do appreciate good architecture - and art. Very Happy
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Islander
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PostPosted: 17:50 - 19 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip YFPOS wrote:
Islander wrote:

c) Imaginary sky pilot quotes? Nah. Laughing


It is my opinion that science may soon be able to explain "God" Shocked


Ah the so-called 'god shaped hole'?

Interesting idea but I do seem to lack one Very Happy
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 18:26 - 19 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
chickenstrip YFPOS wrote:


It is my opinion that science may soon be able to explain "God" Shocked


Ah the so-called 'god shaped hole'?

Interesting idea but I do seem to lack one Very Happy


How would you feel if I said that what I mean is a quantum explanation of consciousness? That consciousness may have preceded life in the universe? May, in fact exist as a real thing in the fabric of space/time?* That we are all connected through quantum mechanics directly to it? I'm not talking about anything with religious connotations, but actual scientific theory, as propounded by Sir Roger Penrose, among others?

Don't test me too hard on this, as I'm not a scientist, so these ideas are a lot of work for me to get my head around Laughing
I'm just trying to get a 'feel' for certain things, and wondered myself about "the quantum mind" (which I thought might connect to the original thought in this thread about AGI) - am finding some very interesting ideas. Try this one, for e.g.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx0SsffdMBw

*It might be better to say that consciousness possibly has a close correspondence with certain quantum properties of space/time.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 20:26 - 19 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip YFPOS wrote:


How would you feel if I said that what I mean is a quantum explanation of consciousness? That consciousness may have preceded life in the universe? May, in fact exist as a real thing in the fabric of space/time?* That we are all connected through quantum mechanics directly to it? I'm not talking about anything with religious connotations, but actual scientific theory, as propounded by Sir Roger Penrose, among others?

Don't test me too hard on this, as I'm not a scientist, so these ideas are a lot of work for me to get my head around Laughing
I'm just trying to get a 'feel' for certain things, and wondered myself about "the quantum mind" (which I thought might connect to the original thought in this thread about AGI) - am finding some very interesting ideas. Try this one, for e.g.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx0SsffdMBw

*It might be better to say that consciousness possibly has a close correspondence with certain quantum properties of space/time.


I have an open mind on the subject of consciousness and wouldn't be surprised in the least if there were some form of quantum interaction behind it - there's definitely something odd about it.

You should probably have a look at Boltzmann brains - that's an interesting idea, and also simulated reality which is, I think, what you're driving at. If you really want to boggle your brain then also have a look at nested simulation... Laughing

It's on the borderlands of philosophy and science - very fascinating stuff but just about impossible to derive any form of proof. Thumbs Up

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_brain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIR8zc2uWNg
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 20:38 - 19 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a romantic view on consciousness...

If you compress enough hydrogen together eventually it'll ignite into something wonderful: a star - before it was just slightly dangerous, like Jupiter, but now it's a flaming ball of nuclear death!

And it's the same with neurons. I hope someone will be able to quantify the "flash over point" where the simple thoughts of say a mouse wondering where the food/shelter/shag is at transform into something majestic like how a elephants morn the dead.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:41 - 19 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
I have an open mind on the subject of consciousness and wouldn't be surprised in the least if there were some form of quantum interaction behind it - there's definitely something odd about it.

You should probably have a look at Boltzmann brains - that's an interesting idea, and also simulated reality which is, I think, what you're driving at. If you really want to boggle your brain then also have a look at nested simulation... Laughing

It's on the borderlands of philosophy and science - very fascinating stuff but just about impossible to derive any form of proof. Thumbs Up

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_brain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIR8zc2uWNg


I think we all have to have an open mind about what consciousness is, as we don't know as yet! But I've been gaining a suspicion for a while now that the quantum world must have something to do with it, as it underlies all matter and energy, and it's not as if molecular biology is made of fundamentally different basic materials. At the bottom of it all are still fields like electrons, after all.

I'll try to get around to looking at your links at some point (thanks), but I have a bit of a queue of stuff for my attention at the moment!
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:44 - 19 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
chickenstrip YFPOS wrote:
For me, it's not so much people taking themselves so seriously, as people's inability to have a constructive conversation with their differing views without getting all emotional and angry about it Laughing


I don't see anyone getting angry or emotional.

Are you?


Probably deserves an answer Smile

No, I'm not emotionally invested in the climate change question - as you can see from my lack of posts since this thread turned to that subject, I barely bother to follow it.

I'd be willing to accept that I have misinterpreted the internet again! Laughing
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 02:03 - 20 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:


I could easily gain a degree, I wrote a dissertation for someone


Laughing

A degree in what, lunchboxes?

You're going to have to be a lot more specific than that. It's like saying, "I can read English so I'm probably multilingual." I highly doubt... no, I'm certain... you could not waltz into the end stages of any STEM degree and breeze it. Not even nearly, you naive child Laughing.

And what was the dissertation about? How many pages? You wrote the whole thing? Why?

Something tells me you are greatly stretching the truth.


Last edited by Lord Percy on 04:23 - 20 Jun 2019; edited 3 times in total
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 02:06 - 20 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip YFPOS wrote:


I'm becoming interested in how consciousness relates to physical sciences, and have looked at some studies that suggest that disbelief, or disagreement with theories and ideas is actually a defence mechanism in the brain, carried by chemical processes, along the lines of a fear response, and so is actually connected to the survival instinct.

Doesn't answer the questions of climate change Laughing , but to me, is a far more interesting aspect of this conversation you're all having here, and in fact, of many conversations going on where "facts" are disputed Smile


Disbelief is surely a survival instinct, related to protecting what you know. Not really sure though as that's more along the lines of anthropology I think?

I'm not a fan of the "quantum consciousness" lot to be honest. Quantum mechanics is literally everywhere, to say it plays a role in consciousness is fairly arbitrary really. I don't see what point they're trying to make by saying it.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 02:29 - 20 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:


Going by the people I've had to work with who had a degree, I'd keep it quiet to be honest. It's usually a sign of people with a sense of self importance but fuck all common sense and that does seem to be verified on Internet forums where people feel the need to announce it too.


Right okay so you once worked with someone who couldn't fix printers as efficiently as you, so they must know nothing about anything ever in the whole world. Alright Thumbs Up

Trying to speak with authority on a subject you have zero education in, with people who have and are demonstrating a deep education on that very subject, is a much greater sign of self importance.
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 10:15 - 20 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:


Right okay so you once worked with someone who couldn't fix printers as efficiently as you, so they must know nothing about anything ever in the whole world. Alright Thumbs Up



Nope. Just your usual arrogant self importance speaking for you again.

As team leader for the firm with the national hardware support contract for PwC in London (I specialised in Proliant Servers and have Compaq ASE certification amongst others), I worked with loads of their in house software IT with degrees in computer science and interviewed many candidates for my team with degrees. A large proportion of whom, were like you - They thought they were superior to everyone else, but had zero common sense or ability to apply thought process.

Teaching someone to pass an exam does not increase their intelligence or ability to problem solve. You're a perfect example of this misplaced arrogance as your last few posts on here have shown.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 11:09 - 20 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

A degree is more than just "passing an exam" it should give you more tools in your mental workshop to approach a problem...

However, in my experience, there are plenty of ppl with 2.2s and 3s who crow something awful about how great a degree education is to cover up their own insecurities on not being quite as clever as they thought.

In the real world the post-grads regularly turned up at the refinery my dad worked at with some new plan or process. My dad would just need a glance at the plans and he could pretty much tell whether it'd work or not and 9/10 times he was right.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 11:37 - 20 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
chickenstrip YFPOS wrote:


I'm becoming interested in how consciousness relates to physical sciences, and have looked at some studies that suggest that disbelief, or disagreement with theories and ideas is actually a defence mechanism in the brain, carried by chemical processes, along the lines of a fear response, and so is actually connected to the survival instinct.

Doesn't answer the questions of climate change Laughing , but to me, is a far more interesting aspect of this conversation you're all having here, and in fact, of many conversations going on where "facts" are disputed Smile


Disbelief is surely a survival instinct, related to protecting what you know. Not really sure though as that's more along the lines of anthropology I think?

I'm not a fan of the "quantum consciousness" lot to be honest. Quantum mechanics is literally everywhere, to say it plays a role in consciousness is fairly arbitrary really. I don't see what point they're trying to make by saying it.


Well, I don't know. I've been looking at theories put forward by Penrose and Hameroff, based on the computational powers of microtubules and how they work. It's really interesting stuff (although again, I have to be honest and say I don't completely understand it all, and am just trying to get a 'feel' for what they're talking about - the limitations of my own intelligence are not to be underestimated Laughing ). In the end though, I have to admit it is just something that has grabbed my imagination, as it sounds nice to have something that explains consciousness and connects it, through science rather than theology, to the universe. I completely understand that at present it is all just theoretical.

The other thing I like about it is that it is claimed that a single neuron can carry out 10 to the power of (sorry, not even smart enough to figure out how to write indices on my lap top Laughing ) 27 'processes' per second. How many neurons in the human brain? I like it because it scares the AI people, as that kind of processing power not only moves the goalposts on creating an AGI, with our current capabilities in computing power, it puts them virtually out of sight - no wonder they're hoping they can get to a certain point and machine learning will then just take over Laughing

I'd also say that, since we already know that biology makes use of quantum effects (photosynthesis in plants, navigation in migrating birds and animals etc), why can't it work in the human brain too? It just seems to me that it must have a role to play, and not just because, well, quantum mechanics is hard to understand, and consciousness is hard to understand, so they must be linked Laughing

It also reinforces my belief that rather than trying to create an AGI as a separate entity, the way to go imo is to enhance humans, who already have massive potential beyond what we can already do, if we can harness the knowledge and technology to do so. Although probably, what we'll actually do is continue to make advances in both areas.

Sometimes, as is seen once in a while in sci-fi, those who don't have a deep knowledge of science can be more imaginative, which sometimes leads scientists to explore new ideas that they may not otherwise have felt worth looking at, if only to explain why these imaginations are unrealistic.

Another thing I believe is that science is becoming a more popular part of culture, more so now than perhaps it ever was, and that is surely a good thing, as long as we keep things in perspective and understand that the actual real science comes from those who make a career of studying it, not those of us who try to grasp it as I am doing. For one thing, if the general public are on the side of the scientists, science is more likely to receive the public funding it deserves.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 11:43 - 20 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
chickenstrip YFPOS wrote:


I'm becoming interested in how consciousness relates to physical sciences, and have looked at some studies that suggest that disbelief, or disagreement with theories and ideas is actually a defence mechanism in the brain, carried by chemical processes, along the lines of a fear response, and so is actually connected to the survival instinct.

Doesn't answer the questions of climate change Laughing , but to me, is a far more interesting aspect of this conversation you're all having here, and in fact, of many conversations going on where "facts" are disputed Smile


Disbelief is surely a survival instinct, related to protecting what you know. Not really sure though as that's more along the lines of anthropology I think?


Something to do with objective reduction (OR)? Dunno, give me more time to try to get my head around it Laughing
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:01 - 20 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never heard of objective reduction, sounds like something to do with philosophy?

As for Penrose, I've seen his quotes on consciousness and I think the quantum woo community have completely misinterpreted it all. What he said is basically a reflection of my comment above - quantum mechanics is everywhere, so it stands to reason that it plays a part in the realm of 'consciousness' too.

An interesting thing I learned about is the way electrical signals travel along synapses in the nervous system. A signal can only move from one synapse to another if it exceeds a certain specific energy, say 10 electronvolts or something. The fact that the limit is so strict is a clear sign that quantum mechanics is at play. It's the same as the photoelectric effect - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoelectric_effect - wherein light emission ("energy transfer") only happens if certain specific energies are exceeded. The photoelectric effect was one of the first pointers toward energy being quantised rather than continuous. The same process seems to be happening in the nervous system.

It's still all very scientific and mathematically analysable though. What I don't like about the 'quantum consciousness' lot is that they seem to enjoy blindly sticking scientific buzzwords together just so they can continue following make-believe ideas about the power of the human mind.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:07 - 20 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:


Right okay so you once worked with someone who couldn't fix printers as efficiently as you, so they must know nothing about anything ever in the whole world. Alright Thumbs Up



Nope. Just your usual arrogant self importance speaking for you again.

As team leader for the firm with the national hardware support contract for PwC in London (I specialised in Proliant Servers and have Compaq ASE certification amongst others), I worked with loads of their in house software IT with degrees in computer science and interviewed many candidates for my team with degrees. A large proportion of whom, were like you - They thought they were superior to everyone else, but had zero common sense or ability to apply thought process.

Teaching someone to pass an exam does not increase their intelligence or ability to problem solve. You're a perfect example of this misplaced arrogance as your last few posts on here have shown.


Well in that case I feel sorry for you. Among programmers (that's what I do) it's fairly well-known that computer science grads are woefully under-prepared to work in software, but the world blindly believes that CompSci = programmer, so they walk into jobs well above their station.

Computer science is the study of the science of computing - a completely different specialism and, much like physics, it is mainly about doing science.

However, if things were to boil down to a discussion about AI, quantum computing algorithms or the impending cessation of Moore's Law, I have a good idea who would be the most reliable to talk to. Much like I will gladly defer to those who know about climate science, when entering a discussion about climate science.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:16 - 20 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
I've never heard of objective reduction, sounds like something to do with philosophy?


No, it's not just a philosophical idea. Again, can't go into detail at present, only latched onto this a couple of days ago!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction

Quote:
As for Penrose, I've seen his quotes on consciousness and I think the quantum woo community have completely misinterpreted it all. What he said is basically a reflection of my comment above - quantum mechanics is everywhere, so it stands to reason that it plays a part in the realm of 'consciousness' too.


This is the feeling little ol' uneducated me had, before I started looking whether or not there was actually any real science behind it.

Quote:
It's still all very scientific and mathematically analysable though. What I don't like about the 'quantum consciousness' lot is that they seem to enjoy blindly sticking scientific buzzwords together just so they can continue following make-believe ideas about the power of the human mind.


Yes, I'm aware that I'm in a bit of a minefield with this, and ideas are in their infancy. But maybe it is as often happens in science, especially where new fields of study are concerned, that there will be resistance at first - after all, these people are trying to make a living too, and don't want to be shunned by their peers! - but slowly, more scientists will turn their attention to it as more realistic ideas come along and are proved, which is where we might be at now with quantum biology.

I'll just add, I've always had some level of interest in science, but it has never seemed more fascinating to me than it does now, with remarkable advances being made in so many fields! And not just that, but the way in which the various areas seem to be becoming more interdependent.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 13:49 - 20 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip YFPOS wrote:

Yes, I'm aware that I'm in a bit of a minefield with this, and ideas are in their infancy. But maybe it is as often happens in science, especially where new fields of study are concerned, that there will be resistance at first - after all, these people are trying to make a living too, and don't want to be shunned by their peers! - but slowly, more scientists will turn their attention to it as more realistic ideas come along and are proved, which is where we might be at now with quantum biology.



Oh I'm not saying the 'quantum consciousness' is nonsense Very Happy . I just don't see any value in the statements people are making about it.

What big new thing is being aimed for, or looked towards?

My main gripe is that people seem to think something is on the verge of being discovered, yet nobody ever talks about what that thing is supposed to be.

Another gripe is one I previously alluded to - 'quantum woo'. There is worryingly large amount of people who use certain buzzwords - quantum woo - to make it sound like they're an authority on the topic, when really they know literally nothing.

Have you heard of Deepak Chopra? He's famous (well, infamous) for this. He has a large following of spiritual types who hang on to his every sentence. In the physics community he's widely known as being a complete and utter quack. And no, he isn't just a poorly understood smart guy - he's genuinely an utter fraud who has somehow managed to gain a following via completely farcical statements using big words that he and his followings don't understand at all.

The reason I mention him is because his works tend to go hand-in-hand with the 'quantum consciousness' thing, which is why I tend to give the subject a wide berth generally.

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I'll just add, I've always had some level of interest in science, but it has never seemed more fascinating to me than it does now, with remarkable advances being made in so many fields! And not just that, but the way in which the various areas seem to be becoming more interdependent.


Yeah there's definitely a lot of fascinating overlap these days. Biology and physics is a big one to me. Nanophysics in particular is focusing on this quite specifically. Replicating cellular and microscopic processes is a hot area of research. Also computer science and quantum physics are going to smash together in a big way as the advent of quantum computing draws near.
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