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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 16:26 - 13 Aug 2019    Post subject: Coding bootcamps - good idea? Reply with quote

I know there are a bunch of people here with various IT backgrounds so hoping that someone may be able to advise...

My son - mid 20s, bright, A-levels but has never really got going with any career - has come up with the idea of enlisting in a coding bootcamp. So apparently, if he pays £6K for a 12-week classroom course he will be pretty much guaranteed a £40K job as a software developer...

Discuss, please?
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duhawkz
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PostPosted: 16:31 - 13 Aug 2019    Post subject: Re: Coding bootcamps - good idea? Reply with quote

Freddyfruitbat wrote:
I know there are a bunch of people here with various IT backgrounds so hoping that someone may be able to advise...

My son - mid 20s, bright, A-levels but has never really got going with any career - has come up with the idea of enlisting in a coding bootcamp. So apparently, if he pays £6K for a 12-week classroom course he will be pretty much guaranteed a £40K job as a software developer...

Discuss, please?


Laughing
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 16:42 - 13 Aug 2019    Post subject: Re: Coding bootcamps - good idea? Reply with quote

Freddyfruitbat wrote:
I know there are a bunch of people here with various IT backgrounds so hoping that someone may be able to advise...

My son - mid 20s, bright, A-levels but has never really got going with any career - has come up with the idea of enlisting in a coding bootcamp. So apparently, if he pays £6K for a 12-week classroom course he will be pretty much guaranteed a £40K job as a software developer...

Discuss, please?


LMAO!!!

Zero experience = zero chance. If he's lucky he might get £15,000 - £18,000 as a junior programmer where he'll have to spend three years sucking the cocks of "proper" programmers to even get a sniff of such work.

It's pretty much a scam. Unless you get an A-Level, BTEC, HND, Degree or whatever at the end of it no one will care.

Better off spending the money on a Uni spot or failing that the Open University.
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duhawkz
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PostPosted: 16:44 - 13 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

He might get a look in as a junior developer somewhere for less than half that without any real experience or a proven track record.

As for paying 6k, There are tons of free resources online if he wants to learn to code. You don't spend anything like that if anything to learn to code.

Its just like to old retrain as a plumber/electrician or other trade ads you used to see. Or the computeach ads where you pay 4k and they send you £150 worth microsoft books and some exam voucher and you get an MCSE and then earn mega bucks
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Ste
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PostPosted: 16:52 - 13 Aug 2019    Post subject: Re: Coding bootcamps - good idea? Reply with quote

Freddyfruitbat wrote:
So apparently, if he pays £6K for a 12-week classroom course he will be pretty much guaranteed a £40K job as a software developer...

Discuss, please?

The first problem I see is that there aren't any courses listed on that page which cost £6k and take 12 weeks.

Secondly, they also don't make any mention for any of the course about how he'll be pretty much guaranteed a £40k job as a software developer.

Other than those two minor points, I can't see how he could possibly go wrong. Wink
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Evil Hans
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PostPosted: 17:20 - 13 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've just employed a junior with a computing degree and a couple of years experience ... we're not paying him anything like that, and we're not particularly tight!
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A100man
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PostPosted: 19:16 - 13 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

What A-levels? ever shown any enthusiasm or aptitude for computers to date (gaming doesn't count) ?

Python seem in demand at the moment with plenty of resource for 'free' training. Maybe he can learn enough to bluff through an interview then it will be sink or swim.

Unless these course can withing reason guarantee a position at the end then it seems quite a gamble.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 20:59 - 13 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evil Hans wrote:
We've just employed a junior with a computing degree and a couple of years experience ... we're not paying him anything like that, and we're not particularly tight!

You watch out for what he writes. That he has a "computing degree" doesn't mean that much. People just starting out are either average, in which case they'll write crap stuff, or good, in which case they'll do it all in the most unnecessarily complicated way for fun and enjoyment and a 2% benefit in efficiency, and when they leave, you won't be able to make head nor tail of it and you will be fsck'd.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 22:56 - 13 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, whatever course it is I can guarantee it's completely out of date.

Even today my boss was musing on the difficulty of Entity Framework and MVC... like conversing with someone about stone age tools whilst you operate a CNC plasma cutter Smile
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Hawkeye1250FA
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PostPosted: 23:05 - 13 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a wind up surely?

If not, I have some magic beans for sale.



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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 04:56 - 14 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

12 weeks as a programmer, most of which is learning the basics (so not even making or fixing stuff), and having a 40k job at the end of it? Laughing

I've been going for about two years now, and as the only programmer in the company I've been immersed neck deep in tons of stuff from day one - web, db, software, apps, you name, I've made it - yet I still feel I have quite the way to go before I can confidently waltz into a 40k job anywhere.

12 weeks Laughing

I think the general consensus regarding bootcamps is that they're no better or worse than what a person can do at home self-teaching. I suppose certain aspects of the learning process will be accelerated, but other things simply cannot be learned in a bootcamp. One of the main challenges is problem solving and debugging, which can only be learned through hard experience. 12 weeks isn't enough, it's not like a bootcamp will sit your son down and say to him, "Here are all the problems and bugs you'll encounter in every project you ever do". It doesn't work like that.

Furthermore, bootcamps tend to to teach one thing and one thing only. There's a bootcamp here in Chengdu that focuses primarily on two things - Wechat mini-apps (very important and useful in the Chinese market), and web development using Ruby on Rails. Ruby on Rails holds about 3% market share in web development. I find it absurd that that's what they're teaching at a bootcamp designed to make people quickly employable. Clearly they just don't have anyone available to teach proper web development, so they're offering courses in any old thing to rake a profit.

If your son truly wants to go ahead with a bootcamp, tell him to first research the languages and frameworks he'll be learning, and see if there are related jobs available in the area. For a better chance at finding work, I would suggest looking for ways to learn Java, .NET (C#) or one of the fancy web development frameworks like React. And learn it himself.

Generally, unless the aim is to get into super computers, mainframes or youtube sized databases*, I think self-teaching is best anyway. I think the learning process is much faster and deeper if you have to overcome and research every problem yourself.

*(and to get into big things like that you'll need a Computer Science degree or tons of experience anyway)
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 11:29 - 14 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have recently started as a Programmer.

My path was somewhat different.

I'm pretty clever but have always been naff at education.

I dropped out of uni at 20 and got a job doing night shifts on a helpdesk for a fair sized tech/finance company.

After 2-3 years of this I had drawn enough positive attention to myself that I got a job as a BA over night doubling my money. Believe or not I feel I was able to draw my attention to myself better overnight I felt. Overnight I would need to call out to different departments. Coming across well on the phone to someone you have woken up at 3am to help fix a problem and knowing the right information makes you look like a superstar compared to some of the other gimps they employed.

I worked as a BA the last 10 years in the end I was getting bored to asked to move to development. Again I had impressed the right people by being competent for years and always asking questions. Programmers love to explain to you how they did things and I liked to learn.

I have only been doing it a few weeks yet i already have 2 programs running in Production, 1 going in this week and 7 should be going in the week after, I had never write a thing in a 'proper' language until 3 weeks ago. Not because I am a wizz and have picked up programming instantly but because I am familiar with the systems and how it all fits together. I'm currently writing in COBOL which eccentricities aside is pretty easy to pick up. I have been promised a Java course next year.

I wouldn't have gotten this without paying my dues and showing people I am reliable and competent.

Learning a programming language has very little to do with working as a programmer believe it or not. Learning the systems you are building/maintaining and the workflow are more important. It's almost like a driving test, where they say you learn more after you have passed.

Were I in a position to employ a programmer I don't think i would even give someone an interview with a coding bootcamp and fuck all else on their CV.

My advice get an entry position is a tech company and climb the ladder.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 12:36 - 14 Aug 2019    Post subject: Re: Coding bootcamps - good idea? Reply with quote

Freddyfruitbat wrote:
I know there are a bunch of people here with various IT backgrounds so hoping that someone may be able to advise...

My son - mid 20s, bright, A-levels but has never really got going with any career - has come up with the idea of enlisting in a coding bootcamp. So apparently, if he pays £6K for a 12-week classroom course he will be pretty much guaranteed a £40K job as a software developer...

Discuss, please?


I have a little experience of courses in language acquisition. Quite a few crash courses exist in the world of languages (human ones). The people who attend them aren't ordinary people. They are particularly intelligent and already have a firm basis in language structures and grammar thanks to a knowledge of classical languages. They are funded to attend these courses by government agencies, law firms and the like. They can pick up a new language really quickly. If you want to join in such a course (e.g. at SOAS Language Centre, Ibn Jabal institute or similar) there is no impediment. You pay the fee and do it. However, if you're an ordinary bloke, you will find yourself out of pocket and disappointed. There are huge lists and tables to memorise on a weekly basis. The questions people ask require a high level understanding of language, never mind the answers.

So, in order to avoid ending up like some entitled millenial who's disappointed he didn't get his CBT in one day as well as £6K out of pocket, I suggest your son should avoid that course unless he really is very, very high calibre AND has a sound basis as a programmer in C or C++ or similar.
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duhawkz
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PostPosted: 14:34 - 14 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

If he had a sound base in c or c++ he wouldn't need to do a programming bootcamp.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 21:57 - 14 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

TBH knowing C is much like learning Latin. No one speaks/uses it any more but it makes a good base to learn other languages Smile Java and C# is where the money's at these days.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 05:03 - 15 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
TBH knowing C is much like learning Latin. No one speaks/uses it any more but it makes a good base to learn other languages Smile Java and C# is where the money's at these days.


I read recently that C is a bad start for learning programming nowadays. It isn't properly object oriented, which is pretty much the bedrock of commercial software development. Programmers who learn C first then quickly move to, for example, C#, take a lot of bad habits* or obsolete practises with them.

C++ is perhaps a better one if you want to do some 'bare metal' stuff, memory management and all that malarkey.

Java and C# are my main recommendations though, because with those languages you can make any general software you could ever think up, with tons of tools and frameworks available to help. If I want to be really biased, I'll say C# just because that's what I use, and by all accounts it is the technically better of the two. Java is more widely used though, just about.

*Speaking of bad habits... I think the fact that universities now mostly teach Python as an introductory programming language is a very bad sign for future software engineering. It can do the whole OOP thing, but to create a whole generation of people whose first experience is via a dynamic, non-strict scripting language is a disaster waiting to happen. I can only imagine how the code base looks for some of the larger Python projects out there.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 11:35 - 15 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a fair parity between current versions of Java and C#. However, most of the work I've done on Java tends to be on legacy Enterprise stuff - good luck handling dates with version 6! Rarely does anyone start a fresh project with Java these days...

Oracle

...and that's all I need to say! As has oft been said: what has the world come to when Microsoft is now seen as one of the good guys Shocked

Actual languages are a bit of a distraction though as it's really about the methods of working. Being a dab hand with Visual Studio is job in itself Smile My soul dies a little every time I have to fire up Eclipse Sad

And then there's all the bullshit associated with development like sprint meetings where people plan out how much work they're going to avoid doing that month.
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Evil Hans
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PostPosted: 13:03 - 15 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
in which case they'll do it all in the most unnecessarily complicated way for fun and enjoyment and a 2% benefit in efficiency, and when they leave, you won't be able to make head nor tail of it and you will be fsck'd.


You're not wrong Very Happy ... his predecessor was an absolute fucker for that. Regular code reviews, the occasional slap, and judicious use of an electric cattle prod seems to be keeping this one in line.
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duhawkz
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PostPosted: 14:10 - 15 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:

I read recently that C is a bad start for learning programming nowadays. It isn't properly object oriented, which is pretty much the bedrock of commercial software development. Programmers who learn C first then quickly move to, for example, C#, take a lot of bad habits* or obsolete practises with them.

C++ is perhaps a better one if you want to do some 'bare metal' stuff, memory management and all that malarkey.

Java and C# are my main recommendations though, because with those languages you can make any general software you could ever think up, with tons of tools and frameworks available to help. If I want to be really biased, I'll say C# just because that's what I use, and by all accounts it is the technically better of the two. Java is more widely used though, just about.

*Speaking of bad habits... I think the fact that universities now mostly teach Python as an introductory programming language is a very bad sign for future software engineering. It can do the whole OOP thing, but to create a whole generation of people whose first experience is via a dynamic, non-strict scripting language is a disaster waiting to happen. I can only imagine how the code base looks for some of the larger Python projects out there.


Python 3.6 is statically typed
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 16:00 - 15 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

duhawkz wrote:


Python 3.6 is statically typed


My bad, I guess I'm behind the times. When I last touched Python it was 2.0 I think.

I guess that explains why I couldn't get my old stuff to run when I tried later on Laughing
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 16:07 - 15 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evil Hans wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:
in which case they'll do it all in the most unnecessarily complicated way for fun and enjoyment and a 2% benefit in efficiency, and when they leave, you won't be able to make head nor tail of it and you will be fsck'd.


You're not wrong Very Happy ... his predecessor was an absolute fucker for that. Regular code reviews, the occasional slap, and judicious use of an electric cattle prod seems to be keeping this one in line.


Hm. Regular code reviews. The reviewer needs to know what he's on about to do that!

It's very annoying when people with no knowledge at all recommend things; e.g. product tuning parameters:

Person a (knowledgeable): Set X to Y.
Person b (not very knowledgeable): Set X to Z!!!
Person c (useless, but "in charge" of b): Yes, set X to Z! The end!

Grr!
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 16:09 - 15 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
Twhat has the world come to when Microsoft is now seen as one of the good guys Shocked

Actual languages are a bit of a distraction though as it's really about the methods of working. Being a dab hand with Visual Studio is job in itself Smile


I've definitely pigeonholed myself a bit by going full bore Microsoft with everything I've done. C#, Visual Studio, MSSQL, Xamarin, UWP, Typescript... I have literally no idea about the other ecosystems, other than having covered Python, C++ and Eclipse at uni. That wasn't real world experience though so it's hard to include it in my 'programmer arsenal'.

Quote:
Actual languages are a bit of a distraction though as it's really about the methods of working.


Yep, definitely agree with this. It can be fun to play language/framework bingo though Very Happy
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 16:14 - 15 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
[
It's very annoying when people with no knowledge at all recommend things; e.g. product tuning parameters:

Person a (knowledgeable): Set X to Y.
Person b (not very knowledgeable): Set X to Z!!!
Person c (useless, but "in charge" of b): Yes, set X to Z! The end!

Grr!


I'm having to cope with this gigantically nowadays.

Every day it's a new idea, new tweak, new something, with no concept of the fact that one idea may bay as simple as changing a font colour, whereas another idea, which sounds just as simple, actually involves a full chain reaction of things in several layers all needing to be done to accommodate that small change.
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Grubscrew
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PostPosted: 20:27 - 15 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Send him off to Australia, and go and apply at one of the mines in the Port Headland area and he will come back a changed man, thatís if he comes back he may stay there instead.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 22:28 - 16 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is it that you programming people do exactly, as in what do you program?

1, writing computer games/graphics and programs?

2, Software tools and solutions for companies to do stuff such as organising systems and specific tasks like inventory tracking and ordering or job planning and calculation tools?

3, Writing the programming for computer controlled machining and manufacturing centres such as CNC factories and stuff like laser cutting equipment?

4, computer hardware and PCB design and chip programming like ROM, EPROM chips, for building PC's ECU's and control systems?

Is there anything else you can do with computer programming or IT qualifications and certification? Oh and out of curiosity is the 40k an average typical salary in this sector?
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