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Brexit: What do you think will happen?

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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:29 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggs wrote:
Does this mean that brexiteers are really closet Green Party voters but they just don't realise it yet?


Shocked

How would I know?! I'll get back to you on this Laughing
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doggone
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PostPosted: 13:40 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

When before was every other parliamentary action challenged in the courts?
Maybe this should be the new normal, at least when you don't agree with decisions.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:45 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggs wrote:


What I can't understand is where this 'nationalism' is going.


I guess that probably depends on who emerges as the leaders of the 'movement' (don't like using that word - don't think it's entirely appropriate, but it'll have to do for now). I hope it isn't an extremist personality or doctrine that takes a hold. There certainly is a risk of that, and both sides have to try to understand how their words and actions could drive things towards that if not carefully considered. At present, I do think that is the direction we're heading unfortunately.

For my part, and as far as Europe is concerned, I would like to see individual democratic nations with their own national identities and culture, working in close cooperation with each other on the things that they share, but without the soul-less, authoritarian bureaucracy currently being foisted upon us to try to make us, these different shaped pegs, all fit in the same hole. Unlike some, I believe such a thing is perfectly possible. If it isn't, then there will likely be more wars.

But you still haven't answered my question of where you think the EU is going? And yet you opt for it.
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 14:20 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggs wrote:

I may well return fire with a carefully aimed hummus and grated carrot sarnie Laughing


Isn't Falafel the weapon of choice for your lot now?

Diggs wrote:
What I can't understand is where this 'nationalism' is going. I fully appreciate the desire to pull back from globalism and this is inevitable given that we will be returning to local food sources, industries etc in the future. Does this mean that brexiteers are really closet Green Party voters but they just don't realise it yet? Perhaps I should be making a banner declaring them all to be tree-hugging soap-dodgers?


This is the irony of the whole situation. Just like the climate militant students who want to point the finger at middle aged white British leave voters for the state of everything, that middle England Leave voter demographic are far more likely to mend and repair, grow their own veg, compost, recycle, camp in the UK instead of going on foreign jollies, brew their own beer, ferment their own wine, decorate and repair their own houses and so on..

Those who pretend to be green, are generally the worst polluters, who need the latest electronic gadgets replacing every 3 years and regular jet travel to Vietnam to "find themselves" just to get through life.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:27 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, another point:

Diggs wrote:
I fully appreciate the desire to pull back from globalism and this is inevitable


It's not inevitable if no one does anything about it. What I think is inevitable is that globalism as it currently stands, i.e. driven by the big corporate interests, will end in tears on a disastrous scale.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 14:50 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggs wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:


I think using the stereotype argument is just playing with words. Another distraction. And by saying "some seem to...", haven't you just used one? Laughing


For comedic effect, duly qualified... Saying that, if I get down to London and MDMA throws his lager tin at me I may well return fire with a carefully aimed hummus and grated carrot sarnie Laughing

What I can't understand is where this 'nationalism' is going. I fully appreciate the desire to pull back from globalism and this is inevitable given that we will be returning to local food sources, industries etc in the future. Does this mean that brexiteers are really closet Green Party voters but they just don't realise it yet? Perhaps I should be making a banner declaring them all to be tree-hugging soap-dodgers?


It's what comes of attempting a 2-dimension answer to a multi-dimensional problem...

The problem I think most people have with globalism is in essence the fact that either you are transferring the people to the work (immigration) or transferring the work to the people (outsourcing, imports/exports.) With all the loss of either cultural nuance in the former and the displacement of economic power in the latter.

Immigration relies on the illusion that "diversity is a great thing." But in actuality "diversity" is a tool to keep individuals isolated from wider society (language, cultural barriers.) So dis-empowered they will demand less in terms of rights and recompense.

Regarding exports tasty as it is it's never made any sense to me that New Zealand lamb ends up in British roast dinners especially when the climate here is perfectly fine for sheep farming.

Conversely the silver sand from the pits in Cornwall makes for an excellent building material but economically it's cheaper to dig up sand nearer London than it is to ship it across the Tamar. Surely if there's been an ecological impact on one environment one should do one's best not to compound it by repeating the same damage elsewhere.

In the end it's all just about the location of power. Remoaners want the power centralised and Leavers want it localised. Damn, I've reduced it to a 2-dimension description Doh!
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 14:56 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

linuxyeti wrote:


Ok, well, let's look at this ..

Measurement, we should have gone 100% metric years ago, it makes sence, it's logical, what's not to like about it.

Language - last I'd seen, there was no european mandate stating french can no longer spoken, or english, or welsh, or spanish ....., in fact, areas such as say, air traffic control, english is the only language that should be legally used, that's not an eu directive either.

Side of the road, again, the UK hasn't been told to change, and neither has Malta, Cyprus or Eire?


I was more using them as examples in which there are huge differences between everyday life between member states rather than things the EU has interfered with (although weights and measures IS one of them).

Quote:
I wonder how the scots, welsh and northern irish feel about Westminster? Or even the cornish, seeing as they seem to want independence as well at times.


Many feel disconnected, poorly represented by a governing class they feel is foreign and doesn't understand their society because the "majority" political party holds power despite having almost no representation or mandate locally. (How many Conservatives MPS are there from Scottish constituancies again?). So your point is caller?

Quote:
Alot of what you say, can be equally applied to the different countries of the UK without having to go anywhere you need to show a passport. How well do you understand Welsh, or even, a strong scottish, geordie accent etc. Or how about the quirky even within different regions within the UK as a whole.


100% in agreement with you there, although you seem to be backing up my point rather than refuting it? The trend in the UK has been, for several decades now, for an increase in devolution and de-centralisation of government in respect of the different parts of the UK. Even within regions in England, never mind the different countries making up the Union. They are different, do things differently, have different ways of thinking and acting. Devolution and regional control, almost the exact opposite of "Ever closer union."?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 15:37 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
Many feel disconnected, poorly represented by a governing class they feel is foreign and doesn't understand their society because the "majority" political party holds power despite having almost no representation or mandate locally. (How many Conservatives MPS are there from Scottish constituancies again?). So your point is caller?

35 from the Scottish National Party
13 from the Conservative Party
7 from the Labour Party
4 from the Liberal Democrats

So in total, Scotland has 59 MPs out of the total 650. As a percentage that's 9%.

Their population is 5.425 million and the UK in total is 66.04 million. As a percentage that's 8.2% so if everything were to be perfectly balanced, they'd only have 53 or 54 MPs. Shocked

But their MPs don't have much of a say in things at Westminster, for example there are as many independent MPs in parliament as there are SNP MPs.
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 15:49 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

doggone wrote:
When before was every other parliamentary action challenged in the courts?
Maybe this should be the new normal, at least when you don't agree with decisions.


Democracy only works when the losing side accept the result and move on. We used to have a completely different attitude to what the left have produced over the last couple of generations.

"Nobody is a loser, everyone is a winner" has created a society which expects its own way about everything and has a false sense of entitlement.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 15:57 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laws are challenged in the courts all the time.

One I can think of offf the top of my head is the one which allowed the retaining of photos/ genetic data and fingerprints indefiately of people who have never been charged with any offence.
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 17:58 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scrat wrote:
Apparently itís now abusive to criticise a Labour politician ennobled by the maybot, a strange course of action, even from one of snitchwells minions.

A plethora of report button abuse today, itís no wonder squealing Ste departed the shed looking like a fiddler crab!


I wasn't sure whether to go for "boring", "Off topic" or "redundant" for that as it met so many descriptions.

Try posting a coherent view on the topic in hand or you'll end up not being able to post. You really are a martyr aren't you?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 18:11 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why can't you understand that there is no report button?

I know the idea of there being a report button that all the nasty people use to bully you fits very nicely with your ideology but you and everyone knows it's simple not true.

Each time you call it a report button, you make yourself look like an uneducated potato.

Is that what you are?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 18:13 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Try posting a coherent view on the topic in hand or you'll end up not being able to post. You really are a martyr aren't you?

There's a very long way to go before that happens.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 19:42 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems to me that in Parliament, Corbyn said the point of view of the people of this country has no importance. Well. There you have it. Couldn't be clearer really.
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hume
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PostPosted: 19:51 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
doggone wrote:
When before was every other parliamentary action challenged in the courts?
Maybe this should be the new normal, at least when you don't agree with decisions.


Democracy only works when the losing side accept the result and move on. We used to have a completely different attitude to what the left have produced over the last couple of generations.

"Nobody is a loser, everyone is a winner" has created a society which expects its own way about everything and has a false sense of entitlement.


The losing side would have to accept the result if it were implemented by parliament. But it's not been.
I agree with the principle of Brexit as ever closer union will expose ever greater problems. Though I don't see how Brexit can happen while the EU represent over half our annual trade.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 20:00 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

hume wrote:
mpd72 wrote:


Democracy only works when the losing side accept the result and move on. We used to have a completely different attitude to what the left have produced over the last couple of generations.

"Nobody is a loser, everyone is a winner" has created a society which expects its own way about everything and has a false sense of entitlement.


The losing side would have to accept the result if it were implemented by parliament. But it's not been.


Did they not vote overwhelmingly for Article 50, and have it implemented? What's that then?

Quote:
I agree with the principle of Brexit as ever closer union will expose ever greater problems. Though I don't see how Brexit can happen while the EU represent over half our annual trade.


Do you believe that there will never be any more trade between the UK and Europe if we leave the EU?
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 20:13 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:


Many feel disconnected, poorly represented by a governing class they feel is foreign and doesn't understand their society because the "majority" political party holds power despite having almost no representation or mandate locally. (How many Conservatives MPS are there from Scottish constituancies again?). So your point is caller?

Devolution and regional control, almost the exact opposite of "Ever closer union."?


I'm saying, if brexit does happen, which, ultimately I suspect it will, then, the logical route to go down is to allow the sepatate UK nations to become independent self governing states, likewise, London should also become a city state, so that it better placed to compete against Singapore etc. Perhaps the rest of what's then left of england should then be divided up into the old kingdoms, such as East Anglia, Wessex, Northumbria and Mercia as individual nation states.

If we do leave the eu, brexit should not be the final step, but first step in the above process.

Personally, I'd prefer we stayed in the eu, and embraced globalisation rather than get left behind fighting against it, but, if that isn't to be the case, then the above only seems fair.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 20:32 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

linuxyeti wrote:

Personally, I'd prefer we stayed in the eu, and embraced globalisation


From which I assume that you think that the corporate giants pushing it have your interests at heart.
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 20:34 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scrat wrote:
Just met two beautiful Irish ladies, both in their early thirties, classy, educated and absolutely stunning, a blonde and a brunette, if only I were six months younger! Anyway, this got me thinking, would we really want to put their lives and the lives of our security forces at risk so that Trump can squander the NHS the British people have built and nurtured on his greedy corporate lackeys?

Thatís what snitchwells minions want, thatís the stupidity of bogjobs no deal brexit!


Tell me how the situation in Ireland will change. You seem to know more than anyone else about the future.

The U.K., NI and Eire donít want a border. Itís only the Federal Republic of Greater GEUrmany who seem to keep trying to make an obstacle of it.

The EU has borders with scores of non EU countries. I donít see them all fighting civil or religious wars.
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 20:55 - 11 Sep 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:

From which I assume that you think that the corporate giants pushing it have your interests at heart.


I very much doubt most of them do, in fact any organisation that answers to shareholders, shareholders will always come first, however, if those shareholders aren't getting a decent return from a market, they will leave it, after brexit, especially if no deal is the end result, as a country, we will be far less attractive as an investment prospect, which will have a knock on effect to the populace as a whole I hope I'm wrong, but, there you go. It's also why, as soon as possible after brexit, London needs to split from the UK, having to support the rest of the UK will be too much of a burden on London, and it will need to freed to become an independent city state to stand a chance of flourishing to compete against Singapore.
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