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Brexit: What do you think will happen?

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Diggs
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PostPosted: 14:35 - 22 Oct 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hawkeye1250FA wrote:
The thing is, do you really think the news companies etc etc havent already done this?

The only reason it wouldnt have been printed or thrown in our faces is if the results were not pleasing to the remain propaganda machine.

If there was even a "large" section of the protestors that voted leave, they would have been huddled together and interviewed long ago - literally the first thing screened on tv would be the massive pile of "Leavers" that had now changed their mind.


I attach a link to an article published by the BBC last week, which contains statistics based on polls (so not necessarily a reflection of views as a whole). The only certainty from these polls is that the results don't show anything clearly, and given that 52/48% was so close, any vote now isn't clear-cut and could go either way...

It does say that not many people appear to have changed their minds, but it also says:

True, most polls suggest - and have done so for some time - that the balance of opinion might be tilted narrowly in favour of remaining a member of the EU. On average, this is by 53% to 47%.

However, this lead for Remain rests primarily on the views expressed by those who did not vote three years ago - and perhaps might not do so again.

Any clearer? Not to me but asking the public what we want 3 years in is the only reasonable and democratic course of action available IMO. Shocked Shocked Shocked

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50043549
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Hawkeye1250FA
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PostPosted: 14:40 - 22 Oct 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think we just have different views on on the media. Smile

You understand how powerful a message it would convey that lots of originally Leave voters have now changed their mind, on national television??

The fact that this hasnt been rolled out should be proof enough that it doesnt exist.

Polls imo are completely irrelevant. unless they cover the entire UK and a huge number of participants.

The fact that the Biased (imo) BBC is reporting based on polls that dont even fully cover their own message also shows there is not a large proportion of leave voters that have changed their mind.

And if the leave vote hasnt changed its mind, then the remain argument is invalid (again imo)
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 15:00 - 22 Oct 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
I agree that it doesn't show a large change of mind either way, and that the samples aren't necessarily representative. Not so sure that the BBC has skewed the polls to support its own agenda though...

Hawkeye - If it were the case that the only opinions that matter now are those of people who voted last time and were unaffected by misleading propaganda either way, then I would also agree with your last sentence.
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Hawkeye1250FA
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PostPosted: 15:05 - 22 Oct 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Diggs wrote:

Hawkeye - If it were the case that the only opinions that matter now are those of people who voted last time and were unaffected by misleading propaganda either way, then I would also agree with your last sentence.


I see your misundstanding now - sorry. Let me clarify as I wasnt clear.

My specific gripe in this particular chain of information is the fact that the general (not all) cry of the remainer is "Leave lied! we need a peoples vote because of that!"

That specifically is what my comments are based towards.

I amend my last line of the comment as follows:

"And if the leave vote hasnt changed its mind, then the remain argument that we need a second referendum (for the above reason) is invalid (again imo)"

And if we dont need a second referendum..... then surely logcally the first one should stand?

Which means they should stop procrastinating and let us get out? no?



In my opinion it cant be argued that we need another referendum simply because X time has passed... That only works if X time has passed AND the original voting public have changed their mind.

The argument that there are more remain voters "coming of age" and that a load of leavers have died is not only morbid and ridiculous, its a farce to consider it before the original one is honoured.



By that logic we should hold a general election every year to account for the death and birth rate?!?
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Last edited by Hawkeye1250FA on 15:20 - 22 Oct 2019; edited 2 times in total
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 15:09 - 22 Oct 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
That's how Remainers would like the 'People's vote' to go though.

Split the leave vote three ways, have only one Remain, and then it would win.

Then we wouldn't 'Crash out' without a deal.

Headline from Guardian - Boris trying to 'ram' home Brexit deal.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 15:58 - 22 Oct 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
Still, it's 5th November soon. Now why does that date ring a bell?

It will be the sixth day of celebrating the departure of Bercow. Dance!
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 16:01 - 22 Oct 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
bhinso wrote:
That's how Remainers would like the 'People's vote' to go though.

Split the leave vote three ways, have only one Remain, and then it would win.

Then we wouldn't 'Crash out' without a deal.

Headline from Guardian - Boris trying to 'ram' home Brexit deal.


I've said it before, if it happens, the vote should be leave v remain for question No.1, then question No. 2 asking 'If we do leave, deal or no deal'. That way we get an answer about leave v remain plus one on the matter of how we do it (assuming 'leave' wins). Doing this would clarify the position in a way that it certainly isn't clear at the moment.

Given that folk like MDMA are certain that we would vote 'leave', then I don't understand why this isn't the preferred way to resolve the situation. Once we have that sorted, we can then get on with a General Election fought on matters other than Brexit.

Simple! Very Happy
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 16:12 - 22 Oct 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
My faith in Westminster has crashed out off a cliff.

Sad
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 16:17 - 22 Oct 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Anybody else want to 'enemy' me? That's Riejufixing and Chickenstrip so far.

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Ste
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PostPosted: 16:21 - 22 Oct 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Diggs wrote:
then question No. 2 asking 'If we do leave, deal or no deal'. That way we get an answer about leave v remain plus one on the matter of how we do it (assuming 'leave' wins). Doing this would clarify the position in a way that it certainly isn't clear at the moment.

Hand

That's unnecessarily complicated.

A deal will be reached because it's in everyone's interests for a mutually beneficial agreement to be made. At the moment we're in a very weak position to negotiate from and for some unknown reason people seem intent on making that weak position even weaker.

Step one is to leave the EU.
Then step two is easy as it involves standing back briefly and letting everyone see that the world hasn't ended, the economy hasn't imploded, life as we know it is continuing and Brexit isn't nearly as scary as some people thought it would be.
Step three involves negotiating the mutually beneficial agreements. The unwieldy behemoth that is the EU will be awkward to work with but once their butt hurt has subsided, with a bit of luck they'll stop being as awkward as humanly possibly at every single step of the way. It's probably just wishful thinking, we can only hope that they stop being awkward for the sake of being awkward.
Step three will always be on going and the initial deal struck with the EU will change over time as will the deals struck with other countries.

There we have my blue print for Brexit. Any questions should be sent in writing to nobcat.

Digg wrote:
Anybody else want to 'enemy' me? That's Riejufixing and Chickenstrip so far.

So many feels have been hurt, you are a nasty person. Razz Laughing
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 17:04 - 22 Oct 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
"Amputation Brexit" was a good one from a screaching remoaner on Twitter the other day. Far more gripping than "falling off a cliff" Brexit.

Feck all will get done unless Boris can pull some stunt which Bercrow, Blair, Miller, 75% of MP's and Co can't stop (unlikely) or there will be a protest until a GE, where the public can fecking make sure that parliament listen to them for once.

They asked, they put it into law and kicked the process off, now they're trying to wriggle out of it. It's not even remotely being hidden now though, which has all but killed off any faith on our system and the last trace of democracy.

Still, it's 5th November soon. Now why does that date ring a bell?


Sleeping Sleeping Sleeping Sleeping Sleeping Sleeping Sleeping Sleeping Sleeping
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 17:07 - 22 Oct 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
Diggs wrote:

I've said it before, if it happens, the vote should be leave v remain for question No.1,


We've done that. Leave won.

Diggs wrote:
then question No. 2 asking 'If we do leave, deal or no deal'.


We've done that. We were quite clearly told leaving meant leaving the single market. Once out, we can negotiate a deal wouthout already telling the EU we won't leave without one.
Leave won. Remain refuse to accept it so keep making the same excuses and inventing myths just like you're doing.


Diggs wrote:
Given that folk like MDMA are certain that we would vote 'leave', then I don't understand why this isn't the preferred way to resolve the situation.


Because we've already done that and leave won. It's just you lot who won't accept the democratic result so want to delay, cancel, postpone, derail or keep voting until you get your own way.

It's fecking embarrassing on the world stage. We've brought up a generation or two of mainly middle and upper class, self centred fuckwits, who throw tantrums if they don't get their own way. Unfortunately, 3/4 of our government are also made up of them.


No, that's what you not necessarily what every person who voted leave actually voted for, give them the chance to clarify their position, again, if you hard brexiters are so convinced that is what the will of the people really is, you have nothing to fear.
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 17:10 - 22 Oct 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:

...at the moment we're in a very weak position to negotiate ..


The UK has always been in the weaker position, the UK is 1 nation, attempting to get the best outcome for itself, the remaining eu, is 27 countries, all vying for what's best for the 27 countries..
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Hawkeye1250FA
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PostPosted: 17:34 - 22 Oct 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Linuxyeti that's another ridiculous remainer thing that's getting thrown around as well.

Why would the current holders of whatever agree to "one more" just to prove the other side lost, when they already did?!

Can you imagine Barca beating real in the champions League final, only for real to say, "risk the cup on one more match, if you are sure you will win you have nothing to worry about."

No thanks, I'll settle for the win tar.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 17:35 - 22 Oct 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
As polling has become more commonplace the phenomenon of The Bradley Effect or Shy Tory Factor has probably increased. After three years of being told Brexiteers are dreadful human beings it's likely they won't be over-eager to tell the BBC's pollster they still want to leave. ("I'll just put you down as racist, shall I?") Easier and more amusing to tell the nosey parker a fib.
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Hawkeye1250FA
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PostPosted: 17:46 - 22 Oct 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
As polling has become more commonplace the phenomenon of The Bradley Effect or Shy Tory Factor has probably increased. After three years of being told Brexiteers are dreadful human beings it's likely they won't be over-eager to tell the BBC's pollster they still want to leave. ("I'll just put you down as racist, shall I?") Easier and more amusing to tell the nosey parker a fib.


I dont doubt there is an element of that - agreed. But that just adds to my point tbh.

The protests themselves are organised on Remain facebook groups, by remain activists.

If they were organised on "I voted leave and ive been lied to" facebook groups - then the people there would be more than happy to admit they were Leave.

But there are none, because no-one (im generalising based on my experience - im sure there are "some") feels that way.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 18:51 - 22 Oct 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
linuxyeti wrote:
Ste wrote:

...at the moment we're in a very weak position to negotiate ..


The UK has always been in the weaker position, the UK is 1 nation, attempting to get the best outcome for itself, the remaining eu, is 27 countries, all vying for what's best for the 27 countries..

Saying that we will not leave without a deal puts us in the weakest position.

If you're not prepared to walk away then you not in a position to negotiate anything.
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Loui5D
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PostPosted: 20:37 - 22 Oct 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote
Why haven't you fecked off yet Val?
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