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Islander
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PostPosted: 11:37 - 22 May 2020    Post subject: NHS contact tracing app Reply with quote

This is why I won't be using it. @Riejufixing Razz

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/14/nhs_contact_tracing_app/

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/21/gchq_contact_tracing_spying/
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 12:28 - 22 May 2020    Post subject: Re: NHS contact tracing app Reply with quote

Islander wrote:

Ooh, touchy. Neither of the articles in El Reg you refer to is a security paper.

The only substance in the one from the 14th May is "Baw! It might get the IP address", plus a lot of whatiffery. The entire article from the 21st is whatiffery, plus a whinge that "GCHQ might be able to find the device again".

Well, if you know anything about GCHQ's modus operandii, you will laugh at that. Are you sure you're in IT security? Thumbs Up
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Islander
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PostPosted: 12:38 - 22 May 2020    Post subject: Re: NHS contact tracing app Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
Islander wrote:

Ooh, touchy. Neither of the articles in El Reg you refer to is a security paper.

The only substance in the one from the 14th May is "Baw! It might get the IP address", plus a lot of whatiffery. The entire article from the 21st is whatiffery, plus a whinge that "GCHQ might be able to find the device again".

Well, if you know anything about GCHQ's modus operandii, you will laugh at that. Are you sure you're in IT security? Thumbs Up


Information security if you please... Razz

You've missed the point somewhat I suspect. You'll find security papers if you want to look for them but the overall issue is one of privacy. If you're not bothered, then fine - that's your choice. Thumbs Up Laughing
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 12:40 - 22 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

What will happen if you get a phone call from the bods doing the detection and tracing? Can you tell them to bugger off or do you have to do as they say?
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Islander
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PostPosted: 13:09 - 22 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skudd wrote:
What will happen if you get a phone call from the bods doing the detection and tracing? Can you tell them to bugger off or do you have to do as they say?


If you're taking part in the scheme then why would you tell them to bugger off? Of course, if you're not...
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 13:42 - 22 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander has a good point. We can say ok they are just trying to help prevent the spread of coronavirus, and that they have no intendion to misuse the powers or have any mission creep to create information and capabilities that they previously wanted but couldn't get. We can trust them because previously when they asked for powers they didn't do... oh, they did didn't they? And that's why its now an issue. They used up the benefit of the doubt last time. Actually a few times now.

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and possibly worst of all
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to browse through your internet data without a warrant.

And so now we can only reasonably assume that their intention is to misuse the app.
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PostPosted: 14:31 - 22 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 21:48 - 22 May 2020    Post subject: Re: NHS contact tracing app Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
You've missed the point somewhat I suspect. You'll find security papers if you want to look for them but the overall issue is one of privacy.

You haven't indicated anything that causes a privacy issue.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 22:36 - 22 May 2020    Post subject: Re: NHS contact tracing app Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
Islander wrote:
You've missed the point somewhat I suspect. You'll find security papers if you want to look for them but the overall issue is one of privacy.

You haven't indicated anything that causes a privacy issue.


Really?

So keeping data indefinitely and the fact that the identifiers used can be considered to be linked to individuals in a one to one relationship aren't a potential privacy breach?

Maybe you should refresh your knowledge on current UK data protection law and definitions. I'd certainly be interested in reading the DPIA associated with this. Laughing

Crack on and join the scheme if you want to, it's personal choice after all but make sure you're fully informed first. Thumbs Up
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 00:47 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

More info here: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-covid-19-tracking-app-contact-tracing

Sounds like it doesn't offer much of a privacy risk at all.

What it does sound like is a monumental waste of taxpayer money, which just so happens to be paying for another multi million pound tech contract for the same American company that has already done several other multi million pound tech contracts for the UK government in the past few years.

The app is voluntary and has no way of properly tracking or tracing anything at all, given that all it will take is for one person to malevolently click the "I have covid-19 symptoms" button and trigger a completely unnecessary overreaction in the area they live, with nearby users all being told "a person you have come into contact with has reported covid-19 symptoms".

Total waste of time and money.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 12:58 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Re: NHS contact tracing app Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
So keeping data indefinitely and the fact that the identifiers used can be considered to be linked to individuals in a one to one relationship aren't a potential privacy breach?

Exactly what data are they keeping? Thumbs Up
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 13:17 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:

The app is voluntary and has no way of properly tracking or tracing anything at all, given that all it will take is for one person to malevolently click the "I have covid-19 symptoms" button and trigger a completely unnecessary overreaction in the area they live, with nearby users all being told "a person you have come into contact with has reported covid-19 symptoms".

Total waste of time and money.


This is exactly what went through my mind... except I went further and wondered what would happen if someone bought a dozen or so burner phones and loaded the app Twisted Evil
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 13:46 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
The app is voluntary and has no way of properly tracking or tracing anything at all, given that all it will take is for one person to malevolently click the "I have covid-19 symptoms" button and trigger a completely unnecessary overreaction in the area they live, with nearby users all being told "a person you have come into contact with has reported covid-19 symptoms".

Total waste of time and money.

So when someone selects "I have symptoms", that's one thing. It could be a hoax, but most people won't do that, just as most people don't dial 999 for spurious reasons or throw clout nails all over the roads and motorways. There are also supposed to be mechanisms to detect and nullify false reporting. I have not spent time looking at the code yet, and probably won't, but I might look at a walkthrough. EDIT: Yes, the app documentation looks worth a read. Github.

Aloso, apart from "I have symptoms", there's "I have got the virus", which is not so easy for people to send falsely.

So it's a waste of time and money? Makes all those countries using it, and the independent efforts of companies producing free versions worldwide, look pretty stupid, then. All that money, scientific, medical and IT efforts contributed for nothing! What fools they must be, they should have looked on BCF and not bothered.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 22:53 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:

So when someone selects "I have symptoms", that's one thing. It could be a hoax, but most people won't do that, just as most people don't dial 999 for spurious reasons or throw clout nails all over the roads and motorways. There are also supposed to be mechanisms to detect and nullify false reporting. I have not spent time looking at the code yet, and probably won't, but I might look at a walkthrough. EDIT: Yes, the app documentation looks worth a read. Github.

Aloso, apart from "I have symptoms", there's "I have got the virus", which is not so easy for people to send falsely.

So it's a waste of time and money? Makes all those countries using it, and the independent efforts of companies producing free versions worldwide, look pretty stupid, then. All that money, scientific, medical and IT efforts contributed for nothing! What fools they must be, they should have looked on BCF and not bothered.


Your entire foundation seems to be one of 'faith'.

https://www.nhsx.nhs.uk/covid-19-response/nhs-covid-19-app/

Quote:
The app has been designed with privacy in mind. The app does not collect personally identifiable data from users. Users will always remain anonymous.


Trolling the country by anonymously mashing the "I have symptoms" button every hour sounds like the kind of thing Ste would do on a Friday night, or every Friday night, just for giggles.

There's no way on earth that this thing can do its job properly. All I see here is a copycat attempt of China's tracing app(s), which worked because users don't care about anonymity, and they were probably forced to sign up using their ID cards (or passport if you're a foreigner). The fact that half the world are trying to do the same thing does not mean that any of them are doing the right thing... unless they go down the non-privacy route... and the fact that half the world are trying to do the same thing does not mean that the current wasted effort we're being presented with in the UK is something to sit back and be proud of. It sounds like a rubbish waste of time. A voluntary and anonymous rubbish waste of time. I'll eat my words if I have to, but I doubt I will.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 11:31 - 24 May 2020    Post subject: Re: NHS contact tracing app Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
Islander wrote:
So keeping data indefinitely and the fact that the identifiers used can be considered to be linked to individuals in a one to one relationship aren't a potential privacy breach?

Exactly what data are they keeping? Thumbs Up


Well the obvious one is the phone IP address - apparently used for load balancing but still defined as a personal identifier by DP law.

Then there's phone model information although what that means is moot.

It also fails on a basic GDPR requirement on the right to be forgotten.

Like I said, it's a matter of individual choice but I won't be among those who choose. I've got nothing to hide really but what I have is mine and nobody else's business so I choose to hide it anyway. Thumbs Up
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 11:42 - 24 May 2020    Post subject: Re: NHS contact tracing app Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:
Exactly what data are they keeping? Thumbs Up

Well the obvious one is the phone IP address - apparently used for load balancing but still defined as a personal identifier by IP law.

Then there's phone model information although what that means is moot

So it knows your IP address (!) and phone model. Since you haven't mentioned it for some reason, I'll tell you it also gets the first part of your postcode.

What a terrible danger to society the evil Big Brother is causing Thumbs Up
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Ste
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PostPosted: 12:46 - 24 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

When installing/ registering the app you have to give a postcode.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 12:57 - 24 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's why I won't be using it.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 15:04 - 24 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

The postcode isn't a problem if you don't use the app Razz

Actually the IP part isn't an issue for me as I'm behind CGNAT even when I'm not using a VPN but the principle remains.

The first three bullet points from the ICO site:

    Understanding whether you are processing personal data is critical to understanding whether the GDPR applies to your activities.

    Personal data is information that relates to an identified or identifiable individual.

    What identifies an individual could be as simple as a name or a number or could include other identifiers such as an IP address or a cookie identifier, or other factors.


If you want to use it, crack on. Thumbs Up

Stinkwheel has the real answer Laughing
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 15:12 - 24 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
The postcode isn't a problem if you don't use the app Razz

Why on earth do yo say that? We're actually talking about using the app! Thumbs Up
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Islander
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PostPosted: 15:22 - 24 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
Islander wrote:
The postcode isn't a problem if you don't use the app Razz

Why on earth do yo say that? We're actually talking about using the app! Thumbs Up


Because my stated position from the get go is that I won't be? Laughing
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 15:46 - 24 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:

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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 15:50 - 24 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm undecided as to whether I'd use the app. The NHS doesn't have a great track record with new IT systems (who does?) but I'm aware that Bluetooth supposedly has an outdoor range of at least 100 metres, so will the app be able to determine proximity, maybe by signal strength? Otherwise it'll get a lot of "hits."

I also think the app's primary purpose is to assuage the media by showing that the government is doing something about the situation and following examples (possibly questionable ones) set by other countries.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 16:21 - 24 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
I'm undecided as to whether I'd use the app. The NHS doesn't have a great track record with new IT systems (who does?) but I'm aware that Bluetooth supposedly has an outdoor range of at least 100 metres, so will the app be able to determine proximity, maybe by signal strength? Otherwise it'll get a lot of "hits."

I also think the app's primary purpose is to assuage the media by showing that the government is doing something about the situation and following examples (possibly questionable ones) set by other countries.

I doubt anyone's smartphone is a Bluetooth Class 1 device! Class two is "up to" 10 metres, normally accepted as 5 to 10 in reality. The app itself uses not just "did I contact another app" but "How long did I contact the other app for?". So if you walk past someone, that's not "contact", but if you sit close where your devices can ping each other for some time, it is a contact.

There's one hell of a lot of crap talked about this app, as we see here in this thread. News sells. Did you know that a lot of people actually think 5G causes or even directs the SARS-CoV-2 virus? Laughing
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 16:25 - 24 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if I briefly pass within 1 metre of an infected person it's not a "hit" but if I'm within 5-10 metres for longer, it is? Upwind or down? Laughing
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