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Lithium Ion Batteries

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Tuberculosis
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PostPosted: 12:58 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Lithium Ion Batteries Reply with quote

Hi guys

My battery is fucked so I'm in the market for a new one and as usual am looking for some advice...

Apart from the obvious being cost, what are the differences between traditional lead acid batteries and lithium ion ones?

From what I've read in the past the only reason lead acid is still used in motors today is the amount of power they're able to kick out in one go, whereas all other modern battery technologies are superior in every other way.

So it it just a simple case that because motorcycle engines are relatively small in comparison to a car, they don't need the same oomph to start the motor that a car does? So can I expect a lithium ion battery to last longer before needed to be replaced, have a larger capacity (so will be able to sit with the engine killed but lights running for longer)?

Is it a risk though that, if having a lithium ion batter and it does get a bit drained, it won't be able to put out enough oomph to start eh motor that a half empty lead acid one would???

Opinions please all x
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 13:32 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your bike is designed for lead acid, then a lead acid is far less likely to catch fire while your riding. Ive found motobatt to be very reliable, so I will stay with that.

Until one of the big four start shipping lithium as standard and a suitable regulator becomes available, I do not trust them. The voltage range on a lead acid bike is wrong, this also means they are never fully charged. If you do, LiFePo4 tech would be the better choice.

Cost is not the reason, Li cells are quite cheap, 1-2 quid each. A bike battery would only require 3 or 6 cells.
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Tuberculosis
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PostPosted: 13:51 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok good points and thanks for the advice?

I'll get a lead acid replacement then. I'm of the opinion Yuasa is probably the best brand? I like to keep all Japanese parts if possible!
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Fisty
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PostPosted: 14:42 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been running my bikes on lithium batteries for 5+ years now.

As of yet I have not had to replace one, they spin the bike over faster, weigh less and need less maintainance.
My TLR ir running a high compression big bore kit, up until today I hadnt started it in 3 months. It started first prod.

The only downside is that in VERY cold weather they do not like to play ball. But I don't use my bikes in the cold so it doesnt matter to me.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 15:03 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuberculosis wrote:
I'll get a lead acid replacement then. I'm of the opinion Yuasa is probably the best brand? I like to keep all Japanese parts if possible!

I go for whatever's got the longest guarantee, all else bar the name being equal. Manufacturers specify their guarantee lengths for a reason. They don't expect too many troublesome and costly to them returns in the guarantee period.
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Tuberculosis
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PostPosted: 18:12 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just try to make a point these days of buying Japanese or German wherever possible...
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jeffyjeff
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PostPosted: 18:26 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience, the Lithium Ion batteries have the voltage and cranking capacity to work in a bike with a well-sorted charging system. But I have found them to come up short in reserve capacity. If you have a sketchy charging system, the lead-acid battery will run your bike far longer on battery power than its equivalent lithium-ion. My experience was with a 98 VFR and a Shorai battery. After one week, I swapped it out for a Yuasa lead acid. The Shorai was a disappointment.
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 19:14 - 23 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can not blame the battery for that, before buying a new battery, sort your charging system. Check the few connections for corrosion, heat and damage. Replace the regulator if the output is bad. Then a new battery will last a long time.

On a bike you have a regulated running voltage 13-14.8v.
The rest of bike should be happy from 11v minimum (worse lighting) and ~ 16v maximim - much higher could risk ecu damage.
The problem is they need a different regulator, and preferably a decent battery management system with protections, and balance charging.

LiFePo4 has a working voltage 3-3.3v per cell. With 3.6v maximum, 2.5v minimum. With 4 cells, charging voltage is is a little too high but otherwise perfect. It needs a BMS built in to limit the charge voltage below 13.5-14.4v.

For best lighting you want the full 14.7v that a lead acid can take - if you have standard bulbs.
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Hong Kong Phooey
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PostPosted: 13:55 - 26 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

4 years running a JMT LiFePO4 in the CBR. Much lighter, cranks harder and doesn't need nannying if left for a couple of months.

Last time I checked my balls weren't toasted.

I'll be fitting one on the RC8 as soon as funds allow, they're about 100 but right now other things are higher priority.
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 14:47 - 26 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hong Kong Phooey wrote:
4 years running a JMT LiFePO4 in the CBR. Much lighter, cranks harder and doesn't need nannying if left for a couple of months.

Last time I checked my balls weren't toasted.

I'll be fitting one on the RC8 as soon as funds allow, they're about 100 but right now other things are higher priority.


I did not say it cant be done I just dont see the value vs a 35 quid motobatt that will last 10 years. Quite expensive premium for 4x lifepo4 3Ah cells. From their site it looks like there is no over voltage protection and can run at 3.75v. That is above spec but I imagine with lifepo4 it is safe enough.

The best reason to switch would be to get some under seat storage space. The cells are about half the size.
I would be looking at the regulator and probably swap to the older shunt type, they usually give a lower running voltage while mosfets run higher.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 15:14 - 26 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or you could just buy a lipo battery thats designed to be connected to a bike charging system and has the requisite circuitry built into the casing rather than buying individual cells and just cobbling them together.

Some of the ones bought for usage on tanks etc even have heating elements built into them
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Tuberculosis
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PostPosted: 17:30 - 26 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

kramdra wrote:
I did not say it cant be done I just dont see the value vs a 35 quid motobatt that will last 10 years.


I just paid 70 for my Yuasa replacement, and that was cheap because it was (allegedly) brand new in opened box. All the others I can find are in excess of 100 :-/
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Fizzer Thou
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PostPosted: 23:51 - 26 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought a lithium battery for the KTM enduro the last time that I had a lead acid battery die on me.

I had a chat with these people who were able to discuss the pros and cons of various types.Their opinion was very useful.

https://www.tayna.co.uk/motorcycle-batteries/

As an aside of the much lighter lithium battery in the KTM,I did not notice much of a difference when the going got a bit quick on the rough stuff.
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Fightingman
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PostPosted: 07:40 - 29 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fitted a lithium battery to my Mille as they are notorious for going flat unless kept on an optimate.

So yes as previously said sort the charging system and I replaced my regulator too with a MOSFET item specifically for Lithium batteries. I had to do this as the old regulator burnt out .

I have found it a lot lighter and it spins the engine over quickly plus very little discharging over time. Think it was about 65 quid
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 11:11 - 29 May 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fightingman wrote:
I replaced my regulator too with a MOSFET item specifically for Lithium batteries.


Do you have a link or part number please?
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Tuberculosis
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PostPosted: 19:07 - 02 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

FortNine done a good video on it. I found the most relevant point that in a real world scenario of leaving the headlight on the lithium battery actually discharged the quickest, 3 to 4 times quicker than lead acid in fact Thinking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ywopGAXP-I
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 19:18 - 02 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you leave your lights on when the engine isn't running your going to go back to an flat battery regardless.

All the battery is for is starting the engine. After that the charging circuit provides the electric.
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Tuberculosis
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PostPosted: 19:22 - 02 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not necessarily. I've gotten into trouble lately pulling up to someone I know in the street and killing the engine to talk. Lo and behold sat there for 5 mins or less with the headlight on and the bloody battery flat! I've gotten out of that habit now and just turn the ignition off.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 19:25 - 02 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuberculosis wrote:
Not necessarily. I've gotten into trouble lately pulling up to someone I know in the street and killing the engine to talk. Lo and behold sat there for 5 mins or less with the headlight on and the bloody battery flat! I've gotten out of that habit now and just turn the ignition off.


Like I said, if you leave the lights on you'll end up with a flat battery. The battery is to start the engine only. Only a fool leaves their lights on.

The kill switch on my triumph kills everything for this precise reason.
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Last edited by Nobby the Bastard on 19:26 - 02 Jun 2020; edited 1 time in total
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Tuberculosis
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PostPosted: 19:26 - 02 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ain't no fool sucka! You da fool!

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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 19:27 - 02 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuberculosis wrote:


I'm not the one who left their lights on.
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Tuberculosis
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PostPosted: 19:28 - 02 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seriously though, this might happen in a real world scenario, if the lithium only lasts 30 minutes but the lead acid batteries last 90 to 120 minutes you could realistically leave the light on while you pop indoors or go into the garage to buy petrol or pop into the shop (assuming you have others waiting outside with your bike while you go in) that in these cases a lead acid would be ok but a lithium, possibly dead by the time you get out of the shop or remember you left the light on. Another thing that can happen I've done it twice now (once on my old bike and again once on my new bike) accidentally put it in parking light on instead of steering lock. That's potentially an extra 90 minutes you've got to realise your mistake. Maybe you're not as air-headed as me but it's stoopid shit like this that I do that causes a bat flattery.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 19:40 - 02 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuberculosis wrote:
Lo and behold sat there for 5 mins or less with the headlight on and the bloody battery flat!

So you've got a 1AH battery, or thereabouts??
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Tuberculosis
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PostPosted: 19:49 - 02 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
Tuberculosis wrote:
Lo and behold sat there for 5 mins or less with the headlight on and the bloody battery flat!

So you've got a 1AH battery, or thereabouts??


Battery was in a poor state of charge to begin with. I left the parking light on all day at work. Come home time it was COMPLETELY discharged. Wouldn't even jump start. Kindly the workshop at work put it on charge for 30 minutes then it was able to start under its own steam but should have recharged it properly after I got it home but naively thought the alternator would probably charge it enough (25 minute ride home) to start the next day. Start the next day it did but since then even killing the engine for a few minutes (headlight still running) would run the battery down and require a bump start. Convinced the battery was probably at the end of its life I ordered a brand new Yuasa (already had a Yuasa to begin with) but while I was waiting for delivery decided to put my existing battery on charge overnight which has been fine since, so gonna keep the new one on the shelf for future use, dare say it will probably need replacing for good come winter.

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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 20:58 - 02 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

So your problem has absolutely nothing to do with battery chemistry but but fuckwittedness?

I suggest you have absolutely nothing to add to this discussion about battery chemistry
.
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