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The great Brexit future 2019 vs 2020 reality thread

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Rebel
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PostPosted: 18:00 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



Joined: 16 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 18:10 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:

No. You don't understand how it works at all. If you are not an eu member, you cannot be in the single market or customs union.


Riejufixing wrote:


Let's have an illustrative example. The UK left the eu on Jan 31st. It is not in the EUCU or the EUSM. However, until December 31st (at least) it retains full access.

Edit: Look at the little map on the top RHS of your Wikipedia page, and the text of the lightrer-blue key.


You seem to be contradicting yourself....
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 18:12 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
until December 31st

-which is when we actually leave.
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cdlxxvi
Nearly there...



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PostPosted: 18:17 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:

We are not in the EUCU or EUSM at all either. We left both when we ceased to be eu members.


Oh, so it's all about the legal definition of "is", i.e. pointless noise.

A bit like jumping onto someone saying "check out my car" with a tirade about how she cannot say "my", because technically it belongs to the offshore shareholders of a shell company that owns a controlling interest in a fund that invested in a leasing provider.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 18:22 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:
until December 31st

-which is when we actually leave.

If you can come up with any documentation, UK government or eu, saying that we;re still in, present it here.

You won't, of course, because we left 5 months ago. We are not in the eu.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 18:23 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:

No. You don't understand how it works at all. If you are not an eu member, you cannot be in the single market or customs union.

Riejufixing wrote:

Let's have an illustrative example. The UK left the eu on Jan 31st. It is not in the EUCU or the EUSM. However, until December 31st (at least) it retains full access.

Edit: Look at the little map on the top RHS of your Wikipedia page, and the text of the lightrer-blue key.


You seem to be contradicting yourself....


How's that exactly, then?
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 18:25 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

cdlxxvi wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:

We are not in the EUCU or EUSM at all either. We left both when we ceased to be eu members.


Oh, so it's all about the legal definition of "is", i.e. pointless noise.

A bit like jumping onto someone saying "check out my car" with a tirade about how she cannot say "my", because technically it belongs to the offshore shareholders of a shell company that owns a controlling interest in a fund that invested in a leasing provider.

Not at all. You said:

cdlxxvi wrote:
Switzerland, Norway et al (EEA) say you can be in single market and not in EU.


They are not in the EUSM. You are wrong.
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



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PostPosted: 18:32 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:


How's that exactly, then?


Riejufixing wrote:

. If you are not an eu member, you cannot be in the single market or customs union.


Riejufixing wrote:

The UK left the eu on Jan 31st. It is not in the EUCU or the EUSM. However, until December 31stit retains full access.

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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



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PostPosted: 19:14 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

And then theres all the other light blue countries on that map that are not in the eu but are 8n the single market including the freedom of movement requirement.
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Ste
Not Work Safe



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PostPosted: 19:22 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having access to the single market is different to being in the single market.

Rain
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 19:24 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ What's the little dark cloud for? We're on our way to the sunny uplands! Laughing
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Ste
Not Work Safe



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PostPosted: 19:25 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
We're on our way to the sunny uplands! Laughing

About Time !
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 19:30 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:


How's that exactly, then?


Riejufixing wrote:

. If you are not an eu member, you cannot be in the single market or customs union.


Riejufixing wrote:

The UK left the eu on Jan 31st. It is not in the EUCU or the EUSM. However, until December 31stit retains full access.

So you're confused because we are not in the eu, and are therefore not in the EUSM, but have full access? Is that it?

Edit: We have access by treaty. In our case, it's the "Withdrawal Agreement" treaty. Other countries have access by treaty too, but their access is by different treaties. Norway, for instance, uses the EEA Agreement, which entered into force on 1 January 1994. Switzerland has different arrangememnts.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 19:52 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
If you can come up with any documentation, UK government or eu, saying that we;re still in, present it here.

Of course they call it "out". Semantics. Brexit isn't done yet. Real change happens in 2021.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 19:56 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:
If you can come up with any documentation, UK government or eu, saying that we;re still in, present it here.

Of course they call it "out". Semantics. Brexit isn't done yet. Real change happens in 2021.

So are we in the eu, or not?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 19:57 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:
If you can come up with any documentation, UK government or eu, saying that we;re still in, present it here.

Of course they call it "out". Semantics. Brexit isn't done yet. Real change happens in 2021.


I think I know how Reijufixing will reply to that, and while we have this government that is standing up for the UK in the negotiations, I'm inclined to accept that we are as good as out, and that the semantics are rather in "we're not out yet".
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 20:02 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh dear! Poor Winnie doesn't get anything, except the hump!

Enter reality:
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 20:15 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
I think I know how Reijufixing will reply to that, and while we have this government that is standing up for the UK in the negotiations, I'm inclined to accept that we are as good as out, and that the semantics are rather in "we're not out yet".

Look at it another way. If we decided (yes, it's horrible to imagine) that we wanted to be in the eu, what would we have to do? The answer is that since we are now out, we'd have to re-apply to go in again, from square 1, which would be much worse than when we joined the EEC all those years ago (the eu has only existed since '93, and we sort of joined it by default at that time). The law - the eu's A.50 and our own European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020 has run its course, and can't be undone, the joining action would have to be redone, with all that would entail.

Yes, there's stuff yet to be decided, but that's only to do with whether or not we get a trading agreement, and if so, what. We're actually in a temporary trading ageement now, called the transition period, in which we pay for general access to the EUSM, but it will run out at the end of the year.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 20:34 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, we're in broad agreement. My concerns were back when we had a government that seemed ready to lie down to every demand of the EU, but those days appear to be, thankfully, over. Back then, my worry was that being out, technically or otherwise, wouldn't have meant much. I'm feeling much more positive now Smile
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 20:39 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

cdlxxvi wrote:
Since you're in IT, I would have you add value - working on a project that outputs something usable rather than servicing an entirely pointless and completely made up bureaucracy.


Wow! You've just killed off half the jobs in a stroke Sad
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



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PostPosted: 20:40 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Full access and following all its requirements means we are in the single market.

You are using semantics like a politician. I'm talking about the reality on the ground.
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Ste
Not Work Safe



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PostPosted: 20:44 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having access means following all of their requirements, being in the single market means you get a say in what the requirements are.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 20:47 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
cdlxxvi wrote:
Since you're in IT, I would have you add value - working on a project that outputs something usable rather than servicing an entirely pointless and completely made up bureaucracy.


Like the EU Laughing
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cdlxxvi
Nearly there...



Joined: 13 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: 20:53 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
cdlxxvi wrote:
Since you're in IT, I would have you add value - working on a project that outputs something usable rather than servicing an entirely pointless and completely made up bureaucracy.


Like the EU Laughing


Nice slogan, but let's remember that this latest stir of excitement was created by me remarking that in yet another area leaving means more bureaucracy:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbtTcq3X0AgzYZP?format=png&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbtUIHEWoAAoALc?format=png&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbtVTeLWoAEOsWU?format=jpg&name=large
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 21:46 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

ROFLMAO! I've just got another "Redundant" from the Great Geyser! "Ooh get her! Whoops!", rather than argue the toss, have a strop.
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