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eScooters legalised from Saturday

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Kris
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PostPosted: 13:54 - 08 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rental scooters will presumably have third party liability insurance through the hiring company, (much like London's Boris / Uber etc bikes) so I guess it makes sense that they're legal first.

As for the most cyclists and privately owned escooters having insurance...

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Kris
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PostPosted: 14:14 - 08 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Robby wrote:

You can slide on a corner and throw a 200kg motorcycle towards a bus stop at 60mph during the school run. That's a genuine risk. Our moaning about someone else having easier legislation compliance than us is just pointless moaning. If our objection to e-scooters is purely that it's unfair and thinking up hypothetical what-ifs (like what if the insurance claim process doesn't work) then we're trying to play a zero-sum game.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-49127427

Quote:
A 14-year-old was taken to hospital in critical condition after his scooter crashed into a bus stop on Monks Orchard Road, Beckenham, a day later.


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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 14:53 - 08 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Robby wrote:
You're assuming no insurance. They might have it. Lots of cyclists do - it makes sense when you're a highly vulnerable road user with a bicycle that costs £500+.

You're also what-ifing about what happens in a crash. As with anything involving a road traffic accident, the outcome is largely arbitrary depending on how underhand the insurance companies decide to be.

They are technically in breach of a minor law. The police are deciding the turn a blind eye in this case. I would assume the police would only try to enforce if they were also trying to prevent something else - riding dangerously, antisocial behaviour that sort of thing.


They are illegal on the roads. They can't have valid insurance if they are illegal.
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arry
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PostPosted: 16:42 - 08 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:

They are illegal on the roads. They can't have valid insurance if they are illegal.


That's not really true I'm afraid. You can have valid insurance for lots of things that are illegal - Corporate Manslaughter cover comes instantly to mind. I have been checking our wordings to see how tight they are in this regard. Not very is the answer Laughing

We've had a few instances with EAPC's in the past especially where they're used for cargo. This might just bring forward an entire review.
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arry
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PostPosted: 16:50 - 08 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kris wrote:

As for the most cyclists and privately owned escooters having insurance...

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing


You'll be surprised. There's lots of options out there for cover and you tend to get £1m Public Liability cover thrown in when you insure the bike itself. The take-up rate on new bikes being insured separately is a lot higher than you'd expect.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 17:19 - 08 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you're riding a push bike commercially e.g. Deliveroo do you have to have insurance of some sort?
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arry
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PostPosted: 17:35 - 08 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
If you're riding a push bike commercially e.g. Deliveroo do you have to have insurance of some sort?


No; not compulsory insurance. The law exempts EAPC's from the RTA so they're not subject to compulsory insurance regardless of the class of use.

I don't know how Deliveroo structure their labour-force in terms of being actual employee or bona-fide sub-contractors but if Deliveroo have a public liability policy (I'd imagine they do!) and the riders are seen as their operatives then the PL policy will respond as it'll only exclude liability arising out of the use of a motor vehicle for which compulsory insurance is required under any act that governs its use. Since as already stated they're exempted from that, there's no natural exclusion.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 18:00 - 08 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
arry wrote:
Polarbear wrote:

They are illegal on the roads. They can't have valid insurance if they are illegal.


That's not really true I'm afraid. You can have valid insurance for lots of things that are illegal - Corporate Manslaughter cover comes instantly to mind. I have been checking our wordings to see how tight they are in this regard. Not very is the answer Laughing

We've had a few instances with EAPC's in the past especially where they're used for cargo. This might just bring forward an entire review.


Yes I get you can get insurance against being prosecuted for doing something but surely with an insurance policy for a vehicle, and these scooters are vehicles, then riding it illegally is an instant get out clause?
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MCN
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PostPosted: 19:35 - 08 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm no lawyer but I don't think the insurance issue is a thing.
If some cnut on an e-scooter is found liable in an accident then someone should pay.

It's maybe not in road traffic legislation but a civil case would stand.
Or what?
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arry
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PostPosted: 08:40 - 09 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:

Yes I get you can get insurance against being prosecuted for doing something but surely with an insurance policy for a vehicle, and these scooters are vehicles, then riding it illegally is an instant get out clause?


Tricky one to answer this as it just depends on the circumstances but yes, if it's being ridden illegally at the time of the accident, by rights it'd fall foul of the natural exclusion which is for liability arising out of the use of a motor vehicle where compulsory insurance is required. The issue is that what constitutes a motor vehicle and what constitutes a road aren't that nailed down believe it or not. Case law has been sketchy albeit there is case law against an e-scooter from about 2009 that ruled it to be a motor vehicle (albeit this was before any of the EAPC exemptions went through).
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 10:19 - 09 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Has anyone heard where they are going to set these things up? Obviously London will happen bit anywhere else?

I doubt they will in MK as the Santander bikes have a 50% vandalised/nicked rate here and I can see the escooters going the same way. Laughing
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 11:08 - 09 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
MCN wrote:
but a civil case would stand.


Claiming your £4k of car damages back from a benefit bum at £5 a month.

I think the cow catcher was a good idea Laughing
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Kris
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PostPosted: 13:26 - 09 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
13.4% of motorists in East London are uninsured.
Almost 10% in other parts.

(https://www.churchill.com/press-office/releases/2016/uninsured-driving-hotspots-in-the-uk)

Do we really think the escooter brigade will:

a) be insured?
b) stop in an accident or after damaging something?
c) give a F*** what the police say?

Laughing
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arry
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PostPosted: 14:20 - 09 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kris wrote:
13.4% of motorists in East London are uninsured.
Almost 10% in other parts.

(https://www.churchill.com/press-office/releases/2016/uninsured-driving-hotspots-in-the-uk)

Do we really think the escooter brigade will:

a) be insured?
b) stop in an accident or after damaging something?
c) give a F*** what the police say?

Laughing


Absolutely. Although to me the big issue with this is the mums buying these for their kids. One nearly had the missus knocked over the other day - lad of about 11, girl behind him about 8. With so little weight on them, they're pretty rapid moving.
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 15:36 - 09 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
If it has a motor on it, electric or other it should be registered, taxed, insured and MOT'd. Two wheels should all have the same minimum safety gear, helmet. Restrictions too like a 50cc or 125cc machine such as restricted speed, restricted road use. Age limits should also be introduced too.
If you don't like it...... tough.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 17:06 - 09 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
Has anyone heard where they are going to set these things up? Obviously London will happen bit anywhere else?

I doubt they will in MK as the Santander bikes have a 50% vandalised/nicked rate here and I can see the escooters going the same way. Laughing

They were going to be trialled in Middlesbrough, Redcar & Cleveland, Stockton, Hartlepool and Darlington, but the government has extended this to "anywhere that wants a trial"[1].

It will depend, I think, on where companies think they can turn a profit. They cost a little to hire.

I saw a green e-bicycle abandoned/stolen in Woughton on the Green, near the H7. A couple of schoolchildren were trying to make off with it, but the back wheel was locked, so they were gaving a hard time. Got rid of them, phoned the number on it & someone said they'd pick it up.

I also saw one of those delivery robot things where Fyfield Barrow crosses the A4146. I suppose there must be some sort of security on them, I'm surp-rised they aren't heaved off bridges or into canals. Edit: [2].

[1] https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/legalising-rental-e-scooter-trials-defining-e-scooters-and-rules-for-their-use/legalising-rental-e-scooter-trials

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwtshOldlCk
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 20:21 - 09 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Riejufixing wrote:


I also saw one of those delivery robot things where Fyfield Barrow crosses the A4146. I suppose there must be some sort of security on them, I'm surp-rised they aren't heaved off bridges or into canals.


I must admit that surprised me as well.

The things must weigh a tonne, have a rape alarm or a security firm following them because I've never heard of them being nicked or vandalised.

What young kids do though is jump in front of them to confuse them and make them stop. Not that that causes any real harm, they soon get bored. (the kids, not the robots).
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 07:29 - 10 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
My inner child would love to chuck petrol on 1, light it and see if it continues trundling along on fire.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 08:18 - 10 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
wr6133 wrote:
My inner child would love to chuck petrol on 1, light it and see if it continues trundling along on fire.


If I did that I would probably find it's the one time wifie has ordered stuff through them and it would trundle up and burn my house down. Laughing
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MCN
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PostPosted: 20:04 - 10 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Skudd wrote:
If it has a motor on it, electric or other it should be registered, taxed, insured and MOT'd. Two wheels should all have the same minimum safety gear, helmet. Restrictions too like a 50cc or 125cc machine such as restricted speed, restricted road use. Age limits should also be introduced too.
If you don't like it...... tough.


Motor power output has to be considered.
I've bothered to read what the reasoning is but assume power that exceed that of an 'average' human needs to be legislated.

Where powered vehicles cannot be used is on pavement. Any powered Carriage. The carriage word is employed for a reason.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 23:33 - 10 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
MCN wrote:
I've bothered to read what the reasoning is but assume power that exceed that of an 'average' human needs to be legislated.


Just to put that in perspective a reasonably fit cyclist can output ~700W and the largest eBike motor you can legally have is 250W.
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G
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PostPosted: 21:47 - 11 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:

Just to put that in perspective a reasonably fit cyclist can output ~700W and the largest eBike motor you can legally have is 250W.

That isn't the maximum power output.
That's the maximum rating for the motor.
Which are typically considered over an hour period I think - so heat dissipation etc.
The top end off the shelf mid drives rated at 250w get to around 700w peak I believe. And of course that's added to whatever the cyclist is putting in themselves - definitely enough to to confuse cars that think they're going to be ahead of you by the time they've reached the other side of the junction, especially when it's going through 8 to 12 gears so you can make the most use of it.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 00:29 - 12 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
G wrote:
Easy-X wrote:

Just to put that in perspective a reasonably fit cyclist can output ~700W and the largest eBike motor you can legally have is 250W.

That isn't the maximum power output.
That's the maximum rating for the motor.
Which are typically considered over an hour period I think - so heat dissipation etc.
The top end off the shelf mid drives rated at 250w get to around 700w peak I believe. And of course that's added to whatever the cyclist is putting in themselves - definitely enough to to confuse cars that think they're going to be ahead of you by the time they've reached the other side of the junction, especially when it's going through 8 to 12 gears so you can make the most use of it.


Really? Well I know that cheeky Chinese motors are marked as 250W but often act more like >350W but I'd not thought of the peak power Thumbs Up

And yes, a mid drive 250W vs hub drive is the equivalent pitting a 2-stroke 125 vs. 4-stroke. The gear cassettes don't help that much though, an 3-gear IGH is more than sufficient.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 08:11 - 12 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
MCN wrote:
I've bothered to read what the reasoning is but assume power that exceed that of an 'average' human needs to be legislated.


Just to put that in perspective a reasonably fit cyclist can output ~700W and the largest eBike motor you can legally have is 250W.


A human can't produce one horsepower for very long - seconds not minutes. Your average leisure cyclist - the person that electric bikes are used by - will produce probably a quarter of that.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 10:45 - 12 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pete. wrote:
A human can't produce one horsepower for very long - seconds not minutes. Your average leisure cyclist - the person that electric bikes are used by - will produce probably a quarter of that.


Why would they need to? You only need that peak power to get up to speed then you just pedal hard enough to overcome wind and rolling resistance.
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