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Easy-X
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 Posted: 01:02 - 22 Oct 2021  Post subject: Rule of Two - Rise of the Twins |
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So I got this through the mail:
https://www.honda.co.uk/motorcycles/range/touring/nt1100/overview.html
The fully automated Dad bike that is the Honda NT1100  1,084cc parallel twin?! Seems like everything's going this way.
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| trevor saxe-coburg-gotha |
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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| Posted: 05:49 - 22 Oct 2021 Post subject: Re: Rule of Two - Rise of the Twins |
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You mean manufacturers maximising the number of chassis / styles of machine they put the same engine in? I.e. in this case the africa twin? Or DCT tech? Or the use of parallel twin engines?
If the first, this has of course been going on for ages. If mean DCT tech, well, that's just because this is the CRF1100 engine. If you mean more twins everywhere, I don't know about that. I suppose though it is true that with adventure bikes being so popular, the il4 config seems to have been relegated.
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xX-Alex-Xx
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Posted: 05:52 - 22 Oct 2021  Post subject: |
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Yamaha has ruined the name of the R7 by putting a parallel twin in the new version. The original version is still to this day one of the best looking bikes ever, but making a new version and sticking a low powered parallel twin in it? 
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ThunderGuts
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Polarbear
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A100man
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| Posted: 08:23 - 22 Oct 2021 Post subject: |
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| xX-Alex-Xx wrote: | Yamaha has ruined the name of the R7 by putting a parallel twin in the new version. The original version is still to this day one of the best looking bikes ever, but making a new version and sticking a low powered parallel twin in it? |
Huh the OW02 race bke? according to wiki they only made 500 so does that count??
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xX-Alex-Xx
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| rpsmith79 |
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rpsmith79
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| Posted: 09:55 - 22 Oct 2021 Post subject: |
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| xX-Alex-Xx wrote: | Yamaha has ruined the name of the R7 by putting a parallel twin in the new version. The original version is still to this day one of the best looking bikes ever, but making a new version and sticking a low powered parallel twin in it? |
It's not just Yamaha though is it
Ford are doing a stirling job of ruining their car history, what with the new Puma being a bloated SUV Cross heap of shite, not the original small sporty warm/hot hatch
And then the Mustang Mach-e abonination, lets not even go there
I do see the point of the Yam R7 so, even if it shares zero DNA with it predecessor, in a similar way to the Aprilia RS/Tuono 660,
Supersports of old are dead, no one was buying them, yet everyone seems to morn their passing, hopefully these will be either a stepping stone to a litre superbike, or a happy medium for a proper road-biased fun bike
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 10:47 - 22 Oct 2021 Post subject: |
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| Polarbear wrote: | I've never been keen on parallel twins except in the guise of the old 2 smokes.
I have to say modern ones leave me totally cold. |
Same here, but Honda seem to me to be generally good at taking the fun out of bikes, whatever configuration they are, with a few notable exceptions. And before the advent of 'proper' race reps, I actually can't recall; did they do a stroker to compete with RDs, the X7 or even KHs through the 70s and early 80s? Has my memory just gone blank on that (quite possible  )?
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MarJay
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Posted: 10:52 - 22 Oct 2021  Post subject: |
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| rpsmith79 wrote: |
It's not just Yamaha though is it
Ford are doing a stirling job of ruining their car history, what with the new Puma being a bloated SUV Cross heap of shite, not the original small sporty warm/hot hatch
And then the Mustang Mach-e abonination, lets not even go there
I do see the point of the Yam R7 so, even if it shares zero DNA with it predecessor, in a similar way to the Aprilia RS/Tuono 660,
Supersports of old are dead, no one was buying them, yet everyone seems to morn their passing, hopefully these will be either a stepping stone to a litre superbike, or a happy medium for a proper road-biased fun bike |
At first I was going to dismiss your post as irrelevant to my answer, but then it got me thinking. The REAL reason why there has been a switch in engine configuration with bikes is a change in focus, and that change in focus has happened in a very similar way with cars. What is that change in focus you may ask? Well, it's very simple.
20 years ago, the biggest selling flagship bikes from any manufacturer were fully faired sportsbikes. You can argue whether they were sports tourers or supersports bikes or hyperbikes or whatever, but the focus was on a bike with speed and handling, with clip on handlebars and a relatively low weight, good chassis, strong brakes etc. The obvious engine to make these bikes work well is a multi, usually a four cylinder. Once you've set your focus on this type of bike, all the secondary supporting bikes in your range are based on the flagship engine which costs a fortune to develop. Take Yamaha for example, they made the R6, so their less focussed budget middleweight the FZ6 was a four cylinder based on an R6 engine. People complained of this because of the peakiness and revviness of the engine when supersports bikes became more focussed.
Fast forward 20 odd years, and now the flagship bike, the one everyone wants to own, the one the manufacturers put their focus on is no longer a sportsbike. It's an adventure bike. We can see a similar trend in the car world with the SUV with the crossover, with the soft roader. Fashion has changed, and now people want to fantasize that they live in Uzbekistan in a yurt and they somehow need enormous wheel articulation, high driving position and four wheel drive to live. This is clearly not the case, but it is nevetheless the fashion.
The trend with motorcycling does make a touch more sense as an upright bike with good visibilty and a squishy seat makes infinitely more sense for the road than a flat seated bike with clip ons whose bar postion is level with your backside. I still think that they are pointless, and a good sports tourer would do the job better, but that's a bit of a digression.
The reason why all new bikes seem to have 'dull' engine configurations now, is that all the R&D money goes into 'adventure' engines and not engines suitable for winning WSB races. They need to get their development money back by putting those engines into as many bikes as possible. I'm sure there is also an emissions angle too, with perhaps longer stroke twins being easier to pass Euro 5 than an oversquare four. Even so, I still think the answer is to do with what bikes the manufacturers are currently focussing on, and what development effort they've put in to those engines. Sportsbikes don't sell, and sports tourers aren't that popular. If you want to make one and have it make a profit, make one with an existing engine, or an engine you can put into a bike that WILL sell (in the case of the RS660). This new Africa Twin engined sports tourer is just a logical extension of that.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 10:52 - 22 Oct 2021 Post subject: |
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| rpsmith79 wrote: |
And then the Mustang Mach-e abonination, lets not even go there |
There's a bright orange late model Mustang that drives around here, and from a looks and sound point of view, I have to say, I'm quite smitten with it. What's the problem with them? (sorry, I went there!  ).
| Quote: | Supersports of old are dead, no one was buying them, yet everyone seems to morn their passing, hopefully these will be either a stepping stone to a litre superbike, or a happy medium for a proper road-biased fun bike |
I think they just got too good, too sharp and powerful for most riders (which would include me, even if my injuries didn't stop me from taking advantage of them anyway). I loved it when they were all developing in the 80s and 90s. Each new one blew you away with what they could do, and mostly, they were still everyday usable.
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MarJay
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 10:57 - 22 Oct 2021 Post subject: |
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| MarJay wrote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | Same here, but Honda seem to me to be generally good at taking the fun out of bikes, whatever configuration they are, with a few notable exceptions. And before the advent of 'proper' race reps, I actually can't recall; did they do a stroker to compete with RDs, the X7 or even KHs through the 70s and early 80s? Has my memory just gone blank on that (quite possible )? |
Sochiro Honda HATED two strokes. The MX engineers got a two stroke MX engine past him by saying it was a ditchpump engine... |
So I'm right that they never competed on that front in the heyday of the smokey 250s? Funny how I never really gave it a thought before.
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| Posted: 11:24 - 22 Oct 2021 Post subject: |
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Hmm, just looks like any other car. Alright as far as everyday cars go, but doesn't look like anything to write home about. Doesn't look like it should be wearing a Mustang badge, that's for sure. A Honda badge maybe
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 11:45 - 22 Oct 2021 Post subject: |
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| rpsmith79 wrote: |
Haven't Vauxhall recently reintroduced the Viva or something |
Dunno, I don't really 'do' cars.
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| trevor saxe-coburg-gotha |
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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Posted: 12:13 - 22 Oct 2021  Post subject: |
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| MarJay wrote: | At first I was going to dismiss your post as irrelevant to my answer, but then it got me thinking. The REAL reason why there has been a switch in engine configuration with bikes is a change in focus, and that change in focus has happened in a very similar way with cars. What is that change in focus you may ask? Well, it's very simple.
20 years ago, the biggest selling flagship bikes from any manufacturer were fully faired sportsbikes. You can argue whether they were sports tourers or supersports bikes or hyperbikes or whatever, but the focus was on a bike with speed and handling, with clip on handlebars and a relatively low weight, good chassis, strong brakes etc. The obvious engine to make these bikes work well is a multi, usually a four cylinder. Once you've set your focus on this type of bike, all the secondary supporting bikes in your range are based on the flagship engine which costs a fortune to develop. Take Yamaha for example, they made the R6, so their less focussed budget middleweight the FZ6 was a four cylinder based on an R6 engine. People complained of this because of the peakiness and revviness of the engine when supersports bikes became more focussed.
Fast forward 20 odd years, and now the flagship bike, the one everyone wants to own, the one the manufacturers put their focus on is no longer a sportsbike. It's an adventure bike. We can see a similar trend in the car world with the SUV with the crossover, with the soft roader. Fashion has changed, and now people want to fantasize that they live in Uzbekistan in a yurt and they somehow need enormous wheel articulation, high driving position and four wheel drive to live. This is clearly not the case, but it is nevetheless the fashion.
The trend with motorcycling does make a touch more sense as an upright bike with good visibilty and a squishy seat makes infinitely more sense for the road than a flat seated bike with clip ons whose bar postion is level with your backside. I still think that they are pointless, and a good sports tourer would do the job better, but that's a bit of a digression.
The reason why all new bikes seem to have 'dull' engine configurations now, is that all the R&D money goes into 'adventure' engines and not engines suitable for winning WSB races. They need to get their development money back by putting those engines into as many bikes as possible. I'm sure there is also an emissions angle too, with perhaps longer stroke twins being easier to pass Euro 5 than an oversquare four. Even so, I still think the answer is to do with what bikes the manufacturers are currently focussing on, and what development effort they've put in to those engines. Sportsbikes don't sell, and sports tourers aren't that popular. If you want to make one and have it make a profit, make one with an existing engine, or an engine you can put into a bike that WILL sell (in the case of the RS660). This new Africa Twin engined sports tourer is just a logical extension of that. |
I feel like I said that in one sentence.
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stinkwheel
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| Posted: 12:19 - 22 Oct 2021 Post subject: |
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So on paper, pretty much a VFR750 from 30 years ago with slightly better fuel consumption.
Paralell twins CAN be entertaining. The old GPZ500s had a whole lot of character and the dying gasps of MZ had a litre twin that packed a punch.
TRX800 behaved more like a v-twin with its 270 degree firing order, Enfields new twins do a similar thing and sound fantastic. I notice this also has 270 degree crank. Oversquare engine too.
I wouldn't totally write it off, it might be more entertaining that you'd think. A few more ponies wouldn't go amiss, 100bhp out of an 1100cc sports tourer seems a tad on the anaemic side.
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redeem ouzzer
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 13:14 - 22 Oct 2021 Post subject: |
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| redeem ouzzer wrote: |
...a range of 2T roadbikes in the early 80's. They did make the NSR250 which is the best of it's type, not bad for a company that a few years earlier wouldn't touch a stroker. |
That's what I meant by the advent of 'proper' race reps, and I did acknowledge there were a few notable exceptions to their lack of fun-factor bikes. Was more talking about how I perceive them when I hear the Honda name generally.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 13:24 - 22 Oct 2021 Post subject: |
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| stinkwheel wrote: |
Paralell twins CAN be entertaining....the dying gasps of MZ had a litre twin that packed a punch. |
I'd never heard of that, so had to go and have a look:
https://mcn-images.bauersecure.com/upload/996/images/01287500.jpg
Come on, you can hardly call that an MZ!
Doesn't change my overall view when I hear that name.
| Quote: | TRX800 behaved more like a v-twin with its 270 degree firing order |
This is one that actually does pique my interest a bit. Seen some lovely modified ones too.
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MarJay
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 3 years, 199 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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