Ford eco thingy 1 litre petrol engine.

[Easy-X]

It's definitely the end-of-life for battery packs that concerns me. There's a few YouTubers (tiny number compared to the petrolheads) that rebuild electric cars and from what I've seen the labour time to replace a battery pack is comparable to engine swaps i.e. not something your average Joe would fork out for.

Much as it feeds "you will own nothing and be happy" I would say it would make more sense if EVs were only ever leased and then the manufacturer can do the refurb work at scale and punt out old packs as home energy storage.

What could be done is exciting. The harsh reality is we don't have a ruling class with the breadth of vision to join up all the dots before imposing impossible eco-crap on people
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Royal Enfield Continental GT 535, Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[Robby]

I probably watch some of the same youtubers, but I draw different conclusions.

A battery pack swap-out is certainly a job for a ramp and a heavy duty trolley to put it on, but it's just sat on the bottom of the car and held in with 6 or so chunky bolts, and a small number of chunky electrical connector plugs. Labour time should be comparable to a clutch change - a couple of hours in a properly fitted out shop, or all day and always dangerous to do it on your driveway.

For something that will only need to happen once at most in the lifetime of the car, it is comparable in frequency to an engine change. It is worth noting that I'm excluding first-gen Nissan leafs from everything, they were a lesson in how to get batteries wrong.

Repairing the battery packs in a whole different thing. I look at that in the same light as gearbox repair. Best done by a specialist who knows what they're doing, because any mistakes will be expensive and dangerous.

EV battery packs are not some ticking time bomb that's going to be a massive problem. They lose a little capacity over time, and the amount they lose and the rate they lose it is improving with each new generation. At the same time, battery packs are getting bigger so a loss of capacity is less of a problem.

Early Nissan leaf with a tiny battery and awful degradation is an outlier, the battery management was shit. The following generation - which includes my car - can expect to get down to 80% around 100k miles/10 years. The generation after that, more or less current gen, will do better still.

You have the option to lease an EV, or to buy one. If you're concerned that the battery will fail, lease one and make it someone else's problem. Just because you think that doesn't make it true, and doesn't mean everyone else has to think it. So the option is also there to buy one.

[Easy-X]

An interesting diversion, as BCF threads often end up, but relating back to the original engine (3cyl, turbo, wet timing belt) the "whole of life" is pretty bad.

Short term the engine is quieter and more efficient to conform with the various regulations but not only is this benefit offset by later maintenance costs these costs were actively concealed from customers by the manufacturer
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Royal Enfield Continental GT 535, Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[UncleFester]

And yet not everyone keeps a car longer than 3 to 5 years. The car can be under MFR warranty for at least 3 of those 5 with a possible extension.

I've had mine since mid December last year, stuck about 9k miles on it so far and it has been faultless and that includes the supposedly awful DSG gearbox.

Equally wet belt thing is the reason i bought a new one and will have it under warranty with Ford for the period I own it for. Two years on 0% - nothing else i wanted to drive was available with that at the time and by the time the two years is up, there'll be more choice / different stuff / different offers and if there isn't then i'll extend the warranty and keep it another year.
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2017 Z1000SX

[Shaft]

[Easy-X]

I think my ideal car would be a 1990~1991 Mk2 Golf, the 1.8 litre 8-valve as that's mechanical fuel injection (plus all the 16-valves would be thrashed to buggery anyway by now.) Of course an R60 or Synchro would be nice but they're silly money.

Barring corrosion there's fuck all to go wrong (if properly maintained.) I've had a lot of Golfs but there are loads of other solid old cars people will swear by.
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Royal Enfield Continental GT 535, Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter

[tinkicker]

Capri 2.8 injection for me.

Not that new PoS " Capri" tin box that ford just released.

Back in the day as a mobile fleet service engineer, I used to change at east one ford escort 1.8 endura cambelt a week, conducting a 30,000 mile service on my back at the customers premises.

I could do it in 35 minutes. None of this change the water pump and tensioner malarkey at the same time either.

What chance with a wetbelt... Zero. Modern cars are absolute garbage filled with "features" you never asked for or need and hardly anything you want.

Was once valeting wifeys ford ka. Jumped out the passenger side and closed the door. Whirrrr click. The fecker locked the doors with the key still in the ignition....

Apparently a "safety feature". Fecking idiot designers.
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Wading through the thick tapestry of life one day at a time.

[blurredman]

I like my '91 Peugeot 205 and my '79 Buick LeSabre. Just carbs and distributors. However, they are contactless ignition.... People think only recent vehicles have microchips in them.
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CBT: 12/06/10, Theory: 22/09/10, Module 1: 09/11/10, Module 2: 19/01/11
Past: 1991 Honda CG125BR-J, 1992 (1980) Honda XL125S, 1996 Kawasaki GPZ500S, 1979 MZ TS150.
Current: 1973 MZ ES250/2 - 18k, 1979 Suzuki TS185ER - 10k, 1981 Honda CX500B - 91k, 1987 MZ ETZ250 (295cc) - 40k, 1989 MZ ETZ251 - 51k.

[UncleFester]

[Fat Angry Scotsman]

Lease on my Tesla is coming to an end within the next 12 months so I am on the look-out for something to replace it with.

My two minds of thought are:

1. Something cheap that does good economy and can take moon miles but isn't all that comfortable like a 2014 VW Passat 1.6 TD - circa £2,000.00, or,

2. Something that depreciated like a stone but still does good economy and is a luxo-barge like a 2019 BMW 730d - circa £18,000.00.

The only way I am going to keep electric is if BiK remains low and I do it through the company. In that case, I got my eye set on an Audi Q7 e-tron.
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PRESENT: 2018 BMW S1000XR SE Sport.
PAST: 2009 Kawasaki ER-6F. 2021 Zontes ZT-125U.

[lingeringstin...]

[quote="Easy-X"]The problem is the metrics are all wrong. Instead of "at the roadside" emissions, cars (and probably lots of other things too) should have a "whole of life" value with regards to emissions - manufacture, use, disposal. Unfortunately that might reveal the sham of EVs if one factors in replacing the batteries every 5 years or so :think:

What even is the lifetime of a car? 10 years / 200,000 miles?[/quote]



The problem seems to be in people's definition of a "lifetime". I've not seen the lifetime of electric vehicles go much past a few years. Consequently they will have to get replaced which incurs whole new manufacturing and shipping pollution not to mention the problems with toxic battery manufacture and disposal. Yes over it's "lifetime" of a few years an electric vehicle MIGHT on paper produce less "pollution" and contribute less to "climate change" (and I won;t even go into why that whole assumption is complete bullshit here) but a vehicle manufactured decades ago will have minimal guilt in that whole charade.

For instance my car has a 999cc petrol engine and is about 25 years old but at the last MOT they actually said they were amazed at how good (clean) the emissions were. That's probably because long ago I denuded the engine compartment of everything I saw as unnecessary. Loads of shit went into the bin and now I just run a little motorcycle pod filter for a breather. No vacuum lines or other bollocks, just engine. Compared to the current trend of giant retarded cars with enormous wheels and eyesore design my "shitty old car" is a lightweight, economical work of art on cheap 13" tyres.

My bike is so old it's even tax exempt so that means there's been no manufacturing and shipping costs associated with it for over 40 years. Admittedly the engine on it at any given time can date from pretty much all over the place, but I guarantee you that my bike does not cost the environment anywhere near as much as a new electric fashion statement vehicle.

In short, the whole virtue-signalling electric thing is new age wokery bullshit at this point but it is inevitable if for no other reason than changes in technology, it's just that for electric vehicles to wear the halo they think they deserve a lot of things still need to change and be improved. It's still the early stages but I have no doubt that eventually electric vehicles will become the norm, but they're not miracle machines "saving the planet" from fucking anything.

[to v or not to v]

[Fat Angry Scotsman]

[Polarbear]

Seven years Shaft, for the life of the car Im sorry but I cant see that. My Jag before Mr Lorry tried to shag it was 12 years old, 60000 miles and had just past its MOt with only a tyre advisory. I see plenty of cars in the 2000 to 2010 range every day.

Back in the days of my youth, 100000 miles seemed to be the expected life. It was more body work that killed the cars. Remember Alfasuds.

Surely we are well past 100000 and 10 years now, let alone seven.
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Triumph Trophy Launch Edition

[Polarbear]

[Polarbear]

OK, sorry to resurrect this thread but this wet belt lark, being an engineer by trade has got me interested.

OK so I bought my diesel pug under the missapprehension that all wet belts were petrol engines, I have now found out later ford transit diesels have wet belts WTF, Everyone and the ships cat knows diesels fuck oil for a passtime. One of the cardinal rules on diesels at sea was oil and filter changes and when the oil changes are measured in tonnes rahter than litres at a phenomonal cost, well you get my point. it's a serious issue.

So panic stations as wifie has a Ford Tourneo Connect, 2016. But thankfully (presuming my reasearch is correct,) they have dry belts because I would have to pay for it to be done. (I have to put her in stocks and whip her soundly just to get her to pay for a service each year).

So what other modern horror stories have the motoring and bike industry tried to sweep under the carpet? I know of BMW's shitting shaft drives on their 1200 twins. Some older bikes had camshafts made of something softer then they should be but nothing springs to mind to compare with the wet belt saga or the issue with tiny engines made to push out stupid power as Robby said.

It seems bikes have gone the other way, big cc's for less power but that my be down to how emissions are measured for bikes and cars.

Anyway, I'm just interested from anyone in the know what manufacturers have got their fingers burnt over.
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Triumph Trophy Launch Edition

[jeremyr62]

The famous chocolate camshaft problem Honda had with the first VF engines way back in the early to mid eighties. All were affected 400, 500, 750 and 1000cc bikes but the 750 got the most attention. KTM now seem to have a similar problem with the current 790/890 parallel twin.

[Robby]

One that affected me. Hyundai Ioniq electric and Kia Niro electric were both affected. They used a new type of low-conductivity coolant, which is a good idea when it's cooling a 400 volt battery and a motor that will hit 250 amps at peak. You don't want a coolant leak to kill people.

The problem is that the new coolant was shit. After a few years, it forms jelly and crystals.

It never got to the point of being a recall, but was/is a huge service bulletin thing, free for customers. The job involves connecting up a specially made pump with a filter to pump coolant around the system until it runs clear, then draining and refilling with a different coolant that seems to work. About half a day of work per car.

The workshop in my local dealer is busy.

[Polarbear]

And modern coolant isnt cheap. Is the stuff in elecric cars the same as what goes in ICE cars?
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Triumph Trophy Launch Edition

[mentalboy]

US specific but from a company we all know for bombproof vehicles. Toyota's newly remodeled big pickup, the Tundra (think HiLux on growth hormones). Poor QC at manufacturing stage has resulted in machining swarf in the oilways, not something you want to see in an $80k vehicle.

Toyota have ignored the issue for two years and only recently issued an engine recall. 102,000 replacement engines is not going to amuse their bean counters!
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Make mine a Corona.

[Robby]

[to v or not to v]

my 2019 Seat Leon had a teabag type thing in the coolant that gradually released ingredients. the idea being that the coolant wouldnt need changing for many years.
unfortunately, after several thousand miles, the teabag had a habit of splitting open, releasing all its contents and destroying the entire coolant system.
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current bike Yamaha Thunderace.
Moto Guzzi V7.