Temperamental gear changing on an old Sportster

hellkat · Super Spammer Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :

What is it that makes gears really difficult to change?

The Snarley has recently spent more time in the workshop than it deserves. Its becoming increasingly v.difficult to get into gear (and also to get back out, into neutral). Although I managed to ride it home, and then ride it down to Wiltshire, I'm not really sure what's wrong with it.

It didn't used to be that difficult, even by agricultural Harley standards. I used to be able to ride it regularly through London commuter traffic but I wouldn't dare do that now, its too difficult to change gear.

The mechanics (a very old-school firm) have been perfectly competent in the time I've been taking it to them (10+ years) but they did have it for a very long time (slowness of parts delivery, mostly - but also including an unexpected oil leak).

They know the bike better than anybody, its been in and out of there for all its regular services etc and I have a good relationship with them in general, but I've somewhat lost confidence in their ability to fix it, and took it home anyway.

My mate who is storing it for me takes it out for a run every couple of weeks and is pretty sure its got worse instead of better. He has little experience of Harleys - indeed mine is the only one he has ridden, but he knows how differently they handle from jappers and has had little goes on it during the whole time I've owned it - and he knows the gearbox feels "not right" compared to before. He is a biker so he knows how bikes handle, but not all that mechanically minded.

The only thing I can think of is that the gearbox has become borked due to the fact that apparently that the 20/50 I have been putting into it with reasonable regularity is car oil and not motorbike oil (I didn't know there was a difference until quite recently ... Shifty

)

would that have made a difference, and if so

how expensive of a difference is it going to cost me?

Or is it possible that the workshop guys have put something back together incorrectly,

or is it something as simple as clutch lever adjustment?
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hellkat · Super Spammer Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :

Another question:

I really don't fancy riding it back to London.

Any recommendations of old-school Wiltshire/Dorset/Hampshire Harley mechanics (non-dealership ) ?
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stinkwheel · Bovine Proctologist Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :

I use car oil in all my bikes and when harleys were designed, there wouldn't have been such a thing as different oil for cars and bikes. Only issue I'm aware of you might run into is if modern friction modifiers cause excessive clutch slip with some oils. That shouldn't cause problems selecting a gear though.

I'll lead by saying I'm not ver familiar with how Harleys are put together but I'm going to imagine it's a fairly agricultural sequential gearbox with a multi-plate clutch on the end and probably has a lot in common with the museum-piece gearbox on my Enfield (which is still the same general idea as a modern japanese one, just much less refined).

Is it stiff to move the selector or is it that the selector moves as usualy but doesn't select the gear? Grinding when you try to shift, hit a flase neutral or nothing happens?

Some thoughts of possible causes.

Insufficient clutch release. Does it crab when you're stationary and in gear? Could be caused by worn out plates, warped plates, notched basket, bent pushrod, cable on its way out.

Chain too loose/tight/worn.

Gear selector not returning fully. So leaving your foot on it slightly between shifts is quite common. I've seen a few gearbox problems which were actually new boots. Foot needs to come totally off the shifter between shifts. Can also be a weak/broken return spring.

Bent/worn internal selector. There is a little thing on the end of the selector shaft with a couple of sprung hooks on it that grab a notched plate/drum and move it along/round one position when you change gear. If that's not engaging properly, it will feel like you've done a gear shift but wont have selected a gear. So not stiff but not selecting.

Bent selector fork. There are a couple of forks inside that slide the next gear into place, usually running on a thin shaft. If one of these is bent, it can make gear selection very stiff or ineffective.

Damaged gears. The teeth on the side of one gear (called dogs) engage with a hole in the next one so they both turn together. If these are chipped, worn or broken, the gear wont select. Usualy accompanied by some grinding noises when you try for the gear then staying in the current one or dropping into a flase neutral.

Bent gearbox shaft(s). Usually caused by an "incident" so it would have happened suddenly.

Worn gearbox shaft bearings causing a lot of slop in the shafts.

Worn shims on the gearbox shafts making side-to-side play in the gears so they don't engage properly.

Because they are easier to do, I'd make sure you aren't leaving your foot on the lever first. Then I'd check the drive chain is all as it should be. Then I'd make sure the clutch is doing clutch release things. If that's all ok, I'd look at the external selector forks next because they are nearer the outside. The rest can be a bit involved...
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doggone · World Chat Champion Joined: 20 May 2004 Karma :

I'd suspect worn linkage between shifter and box or the selector forks inside which basically push the cogs from one position to another, general wear slightly bent or just sticky build up of greasy gunk.
If it's not being used much and not getting properly hot it might be pretty yucky in there so good long run and new oil won't hurt.

MarJay · But it's British! Joined: 15 Sep 2003 Karma :

Ooh ooh ooh! I know this! (I think, anyway!)

Right, so Harleys work in a different way to the majority of bikes. Like the old retro British pre unit bikes, they have a separate gearbox that is connected to the engine via a 'primary chain' which sits inside the left side engine cover. it's a triplex chain with a tensioner that sits on the bottom run and is adjusted via a locknut adjuster under (as in on the bottom of, on the outside of) the left side primary case. There is an inspection hatch on the top run just above where the gear shift shaft comes out of the engine. I think that's where you look to see the chain tension when adjusting it. It can be done with oil in the bike because only the bottom run sits in the primary oil, and the inspection hatch is above the level of the primary oil. The primary cover does NOT need to be removed to do it, just the inspection cover as the adjuster sits on the outside on the bottom of the primary area.

Adjusting this chain is something that needs to be done every so often, but lots of modern bike mechanics won't know to do it, and may in fact leave it. I have done it on my Buells a few times, and it's not particularly difficult, but it can be transformative for the feel and change action of the gearbox. Loads of people in the press and who have generally test ridden Buells in the world at large bang on about how shite Buell gearboxes are. This is not my experience. Why? Because I know to adjust the primary chain and did it every couple of years. My Buell gearchange (s) was better than some of the Hondas I've had.

Is this definitely the problem with Hellkat's bike? No, of course not but does it fit the description of the issue? Absolutely.

I found some relatively poorly illustrated instructions here:

https://www.harley-davidsonforums.com/threads/primary-chain-adjustment.31869/

There are bound to be youtube videos too.

With respect to the gearbox oil, I doubt you'd have done any damage by putting car oil in there, but it might feasibly make the action 'sticky'. It's also true to say that the engine oil and gearbox oil are separate, and are different types of oil. I think I've got some HD primary oil in my garage somewhere, along with the posh HD engine oil. There was a time when Buell people said that you should ONLY use HD oil, so that's what I did. I didn't really mind too much because it was fairly cheap mineral based oil, and is much cheaper than Jap bike standard Fully synth.

So, change the primary oil for HD primary oil. Change the engine oil for HD engine oil, and get that primary chain adjusted to spec, then test again. You may see a significant improvement. If not, then it may be something else.

It's also worth lubing the joints on the gearshift linkage, checking the clutch cable freeplay too as they are cheap/free things that might help.

The primary takeaway from this is as follows: Do not panic, it's probably not bent selector forks or a destroyed gearbox. Start with the cheap and simple stuff first, and then only panic if that stuff makes no difference. Either way you'll want to take it to a HD specialist if these suggestions don't work anyway I guess.

You'll get it sorted, those Sportsters are so understressed and long lasting I doubt it's anything serious. As I said, it probably just needs primary chain adjustment.
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Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.

MarJay · But it's British! Joined: 15 Sep 2003 Karma :

to v or not to v · World Chat Champion Joined: 24 Nov 2020 Karma :

gears selection gets stiff when the chain needs tensioning on the Jap bikes that ive owned.
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MarJay · But it's British! Joined: 15 Sep 2003 Karma :

BanditsHigh · Worse than a woman Joined: 21 Mar 2005 Karma :

Forgive me for being stupid, but could it be that the clutch lever pivot point is worn and is not properly disengaging the clutch ... I had that on my 1200 Bandit ... new clutch lever and all was well again Thumbs Up

hellkat · Super Spammer Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :

Sorry, forgot I posted this.
Thank you for all the opinions and advice

OK so now I have to think about answers to those questions Laughing

First off (Stinkers)
It doesn't have a chain, it has a belt drive.
The mechanics think it may have been converted - from a ?shaft (or perhaps they said chain Thinking

) and offered to convert to back but for now I have said No Thanks.

Thank you for the reassurance about the car oil thing. I did think that it might be old enough to take any old oil and indeed at one point several years ago, a friend who used to be a MOD aircraft mechanic had a spare tin of something that was given to him by some woman flying some plane that landed on his airfield once, he was soiling himself with excitement at the retelling of the story, so I suppose it wasn't Amelia Earhart but it was someone that aeroplane geeks would have appreciated.
As he was pretty skilled at bike mechanics (as well as high spec jet mechanics), I believed him that the oil would be okay.

Sorry got sidetracked there Laughing

When riding, it moves okay from one gear to the next easily - when you eventually get it out of gear, which often requires too firm a tip of my boot.
I need to really concentrate on getting my foot under the gear changer and PUSH it up or down out of the gear, which is not a great look in fast moving traffic - so its the getting it into gear and getting it back out again that seems to be the problem.

I think it might be easier to change on the higher gears but its been a while and I can't remember. Its only a four-speed.
In and out of first is REALLY bad.

I have steel toecap boots and even with those its a proper faff to get it in gear, whereas before (when I was younger and lived dangerously) I could ride it just fine in trainers.

I have to literally bang it in, which I am not happy about.
It doesnt seem to grind.
When parking up, I had resorted to holding the clutch in and switching it off, and then attempting to get it out of first into neutral.

When you say "crab" - do you mean wiggle itself forwards without me doing anything whilst its in gear and stationary?
If so, no.
If not, what does "crab" mean?

Is the primary chain the one inside the engine*?
As opposed to the drive chain, which (if I had one, I would need to oil and adjust regularly) - I know how to do that, at least.
*If so, what does it do/drive?

I need to stop a moment. I have Teflonitis.
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stinkwheel · Bovine Proctologist Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :

hellkat · Super Spammer Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :

hellkat · Super Spammer Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :

hellkat · Super Spammer Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :

I love you all, actually.
Equally and intensely.
Wub

Thank you.
I may need to return when I have digested all this.
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MarJay · But it's British! Joined: 15 Sep 2003 Karma :

I will summarise:

Primary chain (inside the engine) needs adjusting

It can be done without dismantling the engine

Check the clutch lever freeplay

Engine and gearbox oil are separate and use two types of oil

I recommend changing both the engine and gearbox oil for HD oils as they work best

Check gearchange linkage is lubricated
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Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.

hellkat · Super Spammer Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :

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