Bad instructor

[W.R.]

Jimster - your instructor was totally correct.

When you reach a junction where you are required to give way this applies equally to all traffic. In other words any potential traffic, cyclists included, would have to wait behind you before they took their turn in emerging from the junction. Hence no lifesaver is required. Anybody that attempted to go on either the inside (turning left) or outside (turning right) would be seriously endangering themselves as it would be unlikely given your presence that the could see to emerge safely.

When you turn from a main road into a side road you do perform a lifesaver. For turning left this is done as people on the pavement have right of way across the mouth of the junction (this does not include roundabouts), and it is perfectly possible that cyclist in designated cycle lanes can be going straight ahead. There is no contradiction between this set of circumstances and the minor to major above. When you turn right we do a lifesaver to anticipate the hopefully unlikely scenario where someone could be overtaking (couriers and emergency vehicles spring to mind).

This is covered fully in the Driving Standards Agency's Motorcycling - The Essential Skills. Moreover, Ian (the Oxford examiner who TC knows vaguely) would be very surprised if you did anything other than your instructor advised. In fact Ian is very clear that he likes lifesaver/observation done at the right time for the right reason rather than all over the place.

It is worth bearing in mind that there are so many possible permeations on the road of potentially hazardous situations that any training you receive can only at best be considered to be sensible guide lines. No instructor can see into the future and predict what may or may not occur, but what they can do (when people listen) is provide their students with a set of rules that will do for 99% of the time. No observation/lifesaver is mandatory if there is something more important to focus your attention on.

With respect to the roundabouts again there seems to be this overwhelming desire to provide a strict set of rules. Lifesavers on roundabout have and always will be VERY flexible as so much depends on the size of the roundabout, the number of exits, how busy it is etc. Essentially the guide here is to look where you feel the principal area of danger lies. Again an instructor can offer a guide, but ultimately the responsibility and judgement rest with you. The examiner will be looking for you to demonstrate good judgement, and not a blind adherence to a set of rules.

Finally hassling the training school would probably be fairly futile as this is what they do for a living and no doubt have hundreds of passes to their name every year. You, on the other hand, are a lay person in this respect, and while you have every right to question why things are done, have to ultimately concede that they probably know better and have seen more examples of the right and wrong sort of riding than you have. Much in the same way that telling a lawyer that their understanding of the law is flawed holds very little water when the judge rules against you.

Safe riding old chap.

[jimster]

[krebsy]

Do one to left when turning left at the end of the road in case someone is stepping off the kerb into your side.

Do a right-hand one at the end when turning right in case some Cnut decides to cut up the right of you. (Had that happen at some lights up in Bradford. A chav in a Honda Civic sped up my right as I was turning right and slid his heap of shit car around the corner because he was a cockless twunt.... )
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[paulyzf600]

Think everyone is forgetting that there is a "life saver" which is a full look over the shoulder for turning off a major road onto a minor and when pulling away (or before should I say) and a head check for everything else.

If you do a life saver when moving you are actually moving your outer shoulder which can cause the bike to turn slightly.

It's a Head check that you do every where else (changing position)

The round about thing if you are in the right hand lane and turning left then you signal left and head check left, you are in the right hand lane already.
To be honest I tend to check both on big round abouts just incase.

The minor for a life saver will be because of the effect a full over the shoulder check can do when the bike is in motion.
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Yamaha YZF600 Thundercat

[oxforddia]

Jimster has attributed quotes by "W.R" to Karl his Instructor.

This is false and misleading. An apology - written to my personal email - would be most appreciated.

I was his Instructor and have never posted on this forum until now. As a trainee lawyer, please get your fact right.

As for getting a little impatient with him... poor riding moments before test, then arguing with the instructor. All at the end of a long day without an adequate break ..... because someone not only turned up late, but did so with an invalid licence. This causing disruption to the other student and the days proceedings, leaving me to play catch-up with the time available.

........ frankly I think I was extremely calm.

........ calmer than I am now, that’s for sure.

[jimster]

Hi
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[paulyzf600]

To be honest if an instructor informs you of a mistake I think it should be with a firm voice otherwise you will not think it is serious.

Say you pulled out in front of a car (I use this as an example cos I did this in my training) my instructor proceeded to give me a right ear bashing. This made me realise the seriuosnous of the act I pulled (although I knew already).

It would be a very bad idea for an instructor to give you confidence if you had made mistakes as you will not know whats right from wrong!
kind of like training a dog, if you treat them after say biting something they will think it's a good thing and will carry on doing it.

I think all instructors should be a little agresive in their instructing as it will teach ppl to be more serous with the task in hand.
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Yamaha YZF600 Thundercat

[jimster]

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[paulyzf600]

Ah come on ok here is an example:

The trainee has just ran a red light and a car just swerves and misses him. The instructor has to say something.

firstly he/she are not going to ignore it and presume you have learnt your lesson.

and it would just not fit if they just said something along the lines of "oh well just don't do it again"

But it would really stamp it in your mind if they firmly told you what a dangerous stunt you have just pulled etc.

I did'nt say shouting down the mic to you I said a firm voice.

I am one with the opinion that ppl don't get enough training before riding a bike on the public roads and I'd say that having instructors that are not shy to say that you can't ride a bike is what the country needs. Ok they are not going to just say you can't ride but they should not be positive if you keep making mistakes.
Thats my point with the dog training thing (you obviously did not understand) If you keep making a mistake and the instructor is positive about such mistakes you will not learn though if the instructor actually says that you can't do something you will realise that you have to work on this and correct it.
It's like on U-turn if you stick your foot down the instructor should inform you that it's a fail whats the point in saying you are nearly there better luck next time!

My instructor was a very very good instructor but can judge a charactor straight away so will know how to talk to ppl. Some ppl would need more of an ear bashing for it to actually get through to them.

Back to the original post though mate if you are not sure of these points then the question has to be asked Are you ready for the test? ok so you may have past but does this make you ready for the roads?
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Yamaha YZF600 Thundercat

[fuzz]

I have to agree with paul here. The instructors I had were like this, and I think it makes you learn alot quicker. It's not anything like being a naughty schoolboy. You're paying them to teach you to pass/be safer, and if they need to tell you "That was F***ing shit!" then they should. When you stop off and talk about it, do they continue shouting? No, they talk to you on why it was appaling/dangerous person to person, not teacher to student.

If you get an ear bashing while riding, don't take it personal, set it as a goal. Think to yourself, 'Right, I'll show him!'

It can be annoying with a one way radio, but when you stop off and talk it through, you get the chance to explain why you did it, and get some friendly advice on how to do it better next time.
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[paulyzf600]

Cheers Fuzz thats exactly what I am thinking and how it should be.
You just explained it better....lol.
Specially the "making it a goal" bit thats what I used to do to all the time and now I always remember my training as I link situations back to what my instructor told me etc etc
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Yamaha YZF600 Thundercat

[jimster]

Well, maybe you learn best through firm "army style" training, but I don't.
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[VFR400UK]

In theory you only actually need to do a left lifesafer (don't confuse a life save with a shoulder check) if there is a very real chance of being undertaken such as if there is a cycle lane to your left. In that situation you wound need to do a left life saver when doing a major to minor or minor to major.

[Mim]

I totally agree with Jimster, I'm not the type of person who can take "a talking to". If an instructor was like that with me I would lose my temper . It would also give your confidence a bashing, is that not worse out on the road when inexperienced and nervous anyway?
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[jimster]

[paulyzf600]

Sorry I have to say but stop being soft! its a bloody serious thing and making a mistake can get you killed in seconds it's not something to sit around and have a light chat about congratulating you on everything you have done to keep your confidence up.
So long as the instructor explains after the lesson what should have been done etc.
You DON'T take it personally! you are there to learn not to have a nice time!!!
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Yamaha YZF600 Thundercat

[jimster]

[paulyzf600]

Ok we will agree to disagree. Don't get me wrong I do understand where you are coming from and in any other situation I my self can not stand beng spoken to in any abrupt manner.

I just think that being that there are so many important points to get across it should be done in such a way maybe that way we would'nt end up with so many 17 year olds acting like idiots on scooters etc. (not saying they all do).

Oh and it's Paul! The YZF600 is the name of my bike! hence paulyzf600

Peace
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Yamaha YZF600 Thundercat

[jimster]

Fair enough!
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[simonthepiema...]

Hi Jimster

Sorry to hear of all the trouble you've had following my erm....... recommendation. I feel bad you didn't get on with them (I guess sometimes instructors and pupils dont quit match) but at least you passed mate. Nice one!

[jimster]

Did anyone see Lord of the Rings?
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