Hydrogen Fuel Cells, Why they dont work.

[jay12329]

Stolen from another forum, its long but i found it interesting. Not sure how accurate it is.

'Hydrogen fuels cells aren't the answer either. As of 2003, the average fuel cell costs close to $1,000,000. Unlike other alternatives, hydrogen fuel cells have shown little sign of coming down in price.

Even if the cost is lowered by 98%, placing the price at $20,000 per cell, hydrogen fuel cells will never power more than a handful of cars due to a worldwide shortage of platinum:

A single hydrogen fuel cell requires 20 grams of platinum. If the cells are mass-produced, it may be possible to get the platinum requirement down to 10 grams per cell. The world has 7.7 billion grams of proven platinum reserves. There are approximately 700 million internal combustion engines on the road. Ten grams of platinum per fuel cell x 700 million fuel cells = 7 billion grams of platinum, or practically every gram of platinum in the earth.

Unfortunately, as a recent article in EV World points out, the average fuel cell lasts only 200 hours. Two hundred hours translates into just 12,000 miles, or about one year’s worth of driving at 60 miles per hour. This means all 700 million fuel cells (with 10 grams of platinum in each one) would have to be replaced every single year.

Thus replacing the 700 million oil-powered vehicles on the road with fuel cell-powered vehicles, for only 1 year, would require us to mine every single ounce of platinum currently in the earth and divert all of it for fuel cell construction only.

Doing so is absolutely impossible as platinum is astonishingly energy intensive (expensive) to mine, is already in short supply, and is indispensable to thousands of crucial industrial processes.

Even if this wasn't the case, the fuel cell solution would last less than one year. As with oil, platinum production would peak long before the supply is exhausted.

What will we do, when less than 6 months into the "Hydrogen Economy," we hit Peak Platinum? Perhaps Michael Moore will produce a movie documenting the connection between the President’s family and foreign platinum companies while following the plight of a mother whose son died in the latest platinum war?

If the hydrogen economy was anything other than a total red herring, such issues would eventually arise as 80 percent of the world’s proven platinum reserves are located in that bastion of geopolitical stability, South Africa.

Even if an economically affordable and scalable alternative to platinum is immediately located and mined in absolutely massive quantities, the ability of hydrogen to replace even a small portion of our oil consumption is still handicapped by several fundamental limitations:


1. Hydrogen is the smallest element known to man. As such,
it will leak out of any container.

2. A hydrogen economy would require massive retrofitting of
our entire global transportation network. How such a
capital intensive endeavor will be accomplished in the
midst of massive energy shortages is anybody's guess;

3. As mentioned previously, solar, wind, or nuclear energy
can be used to "crack" hydrogen from water via a process
known as electrolysis. The electrolysis process is a simple
one, but unfortunately it consumes more energy than it
produces.'

J

[mr jamez]

Good

Petrol > hydrogen electric rubbish

Then again.

Hydrogen electric rubbish > diesel

[feef]

to quantify some of the requirements...

what is the "average fuel cell"?

targets are for 0.2grams of platinum per Kw (by 2015)

Research has been done since the 1930s using nickle instead of platinum as a catalysit

As it's a catalyst, the platinum isn't consumed and can be reused at the end of a fuel cells life. Comparing platinum production with that of oil is short-sighted.

Current research expects the cost of a fuel cell to reduce to $30 per Kw by 2015

The (US) National Academy of Sciences/National research Council studied this question. Data provided in the NRC report show that the cost of hydrogen per mile driven ought to be between 27% to 52% lower than the cost of gasoline at $1.80/gallon in a conventional car, and between 3% more to 32% less than the cost of gasoline used in a hybrid electric vehicle2

Even if hydrogen ultimately is more expensive by weight or volume, hydrogen cars are much more efficient than gasoline cars, thus making hydrogen very competitive on a cost per mile basis. Fuel cell vehicles are 50 percent efficient, compared to perhaps 15 percent for gasoline combustion engines. On this basis, the per-mile costs for fuel cell vehicles are comparable to gasoline vehicles even with today’s prototypes.

there are indeed problems with Hydrogen storage, but it's not insurmountable to overcome. the "size" of the hydrogen atom doesn't mean it can slip thru every structure. The density of the atomic structure can make a HUGE difference.

just some thoughts on the matter

I can supply resources for my figures if intersted.

a
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[Bendy]

[cunni]

Electric Eels in all engines, it's the future I tell you!
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[Kickstart]

Hi

While a fuel cell itself might be fairly efficient compared to a petrol engine (although from memory the petrol engine is around 30% efficient), you have losses from extracting the hydrogen from water (energy intensive) and further losses converting the electricity from the fuel cell into motion.

Everything has a down side.

All the best

Keith
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[VFR400UK]

I believe that the idea was not to make a more efficient engine but just to get away from the dependence on fossil fuels.
A hydrogen fuel cell car would use hydrogen created from water and electricity (no doubt electrolysis or similar procedure) so the cars create no pollution and effectively run on stored energy created by electricity.
Efficiency would come with time and mass production.

Granted most of our electricity supplies still come from fossil fuels but efforts are being made to change that.

Ultimate goal is:

Electricity produced by safe nuclear power stations, solar, geothermal, and wind.

Car's made from 100% recycled materials with the car's being recycled completely for platinum and other such materials at the end of their usefulness

[mr.z]

The vast majority of diesel engines will run off vegitable oils with verry little or no modification... there are slight problems but with addatives and better purification of the fuel which can be GROWN in fields. Emissions?... water.

The brazilan cg125s (those produced and sold there, the impports to the uk couldn't say) was intended, can and does run of alcohol from processed sugar cane.

Working technology exists now, the big companys makeing plenty of money allready will drag their feet as long as they can, if they can be seen to be doing somehting its good press for them..

If it was wanted the world could be produceing significantly less emissions from their vehicles winin 20 years or so..

Fact is money is still being made.
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[Kickstart]

Hi

Wind power is hideously expensive and only makes sense with subsidies and companies being forced to source some of their electricity from "green" sources. Solar power is in a similar situation. Nuclear is a fair enough idea, but too many years of scare stories have frightened people off the idea.

Both petrol and diesel engines can run on bio fuels. Diesels are easier as they need little change, but petrol engines have to cope with using a fuel with a far lower energy content (so a greatly reduced range for the size of fuel tank, and probably needing modifying with larger injectors to supply enough fuel). The problem is the cost, although we are probably now getting to the point where it is financially worthwhile.

Using bio fuels in petrol or diesel cars still leaves you with pretty much the same emissions.

All the best

Keith
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[mchaggis]

Burning ethanol will produce only CO2 and H2O. EGR and the cat will get rid of any NOx and CO. It would be nice to get rid of the cat converter all together (as a big plug in the exhaust), and EGR should make that possible, in theory at least. Sulphur compounds and unburnt HC emissions are the worst polluters if you're not talking about greenhouse gases.

Engine design has been at its peak for a decade or more, the only way we're improving is with electronic control and injection. Once we have infinitely variable valve timing widely available (either pneumatic desmodronic or electro-magnetic) that will likely be as far as engine design will go imo.

Anyway, biofuels are the only viable way forward once it will produce more profit for the oil companies. They'll simply move som of their focus to massive farming instead. If there was enough demand for bio-fuels, suitable crops to ferment could be grown at a profit, and no doubt the government would yield suitable tax breaks etc. It is carbon neutral growing fuel crops too. You burn a load of fuel and release CO2, then grow some more and reabsorb the CO2.

Electric vehicles are kind of neat, but electricity generation is very wasteful unless it is nuclear/ tidal/ geothermal/ wind/ solar. We are too dependent on foreign energy. We buy too much electricity from the French, and rely too heavily on the Russian gas pipeline for our power stations. Did anyone see the programme on 'If the lights go out' a while ago? Was very interesting.
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[bish777]

Bio diesel is the way forward!

When they finally sort out the small high power diesel engine for bikes, i'll get one! There is already a 38 horsepower diesel single in production for the KLR frame as developed by USA and UK for NATO. Im waiting for a nice 1000cc turbocharged diesel twin. 110hp, and 90mpg? yes please.
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[ZaphodBeeble]

That article was a bit pessimistic. There's always alternatives.

https://www.newstarget.com/004578.html

I didn't like the dig at Michael Moore either, seemed a bit off-topic.
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[mchaggis]

I'd not place too much credence on an article like that myself. It makes some rather large jumps in logic, some rather glaring errors and doesn't explain/ offer sources of any of its assertions.

700 million IC engine powered cars on the roads does not mean 700 million fuel cell powered cars. Obviously every one of those 700 million will be able to afford to buy their $20,000 fuel cell powered $40k+ vehicle. Their hydrogen economy seems to be global. I know Americans often seem to think they are the entire world, but that is stretching it just a little.

Then they mention them dying after a year of driving. Some fuel cells can use gasoline or natural gas etc instead of pure hydrogen, which reduces their life cycle significantly and doesn't solve any problem at all. Their number one problem is not a problem at all. We've been successfully storing hydrogen in containers for half a century or more.

What would be the point in cracking water with conventional fossil fuel generated electricity? Use a renewable/ emission free source ffs. That energy is free, mainly from the sun. You're not trying to save energy anyway, so whether it produces less energy than it uses to produce it is immaterial. What you're trying to do is store chemical energy for mobile use later.
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[colin1]

im for biofuels such as ethanol in petrol engines and vegetable oil in diesel engines

maybe not pure biofuel but as a mix with fossil fuels

i read somewhere that some states in america are introducing it by law so that all petrol at the pumps has to have a certain percentage of ethanol in it (maybe 20%)

and ethanol is a higer octane rating than normal petrol which is why it is used by drag racers so you wouldnt be losing out

i think its daft that if you run your diesel car on modified chip oil the government expects you to pay tax on it !

i'd love to have a diesel car that i ran on chip oil i had begged of the local chippies. They have to change their oil so it just gets chucked anyway

and you'd drive to the smell of chips
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[Mister James]

[Kickstart]

Hi

[feef]

[Zen Dog]

Jay, where did you find this article? The "facts" contained in it seem dubious to say the least, and thats only the ones i can verify myself.

As mchaggis mentioned, their number one problem, "Hydrogen...will leak out of any container", is just plain wrong. You can store it in any non-porous container, just like any other liquid or gas (although if you want hydrogen to be a liquid, it needs to be pressurised). Dunno where the hell they got this idea.

And the number three problem, "The electrolysis process is a simple one, but unfortunately it consumes more energy than it
produces", just shows that the writer has no idea what he's talking about. Electrolysis doesnt produce any energy at all. It simply converts energy from one form to another. In electrolysis you simply use electrical energy to split water into hydrogen. When the hydrogen is then burnt and becomes water again, the energy is released. There is a certain amount of energy loss in the process of electrolysis (i.e. not 100% of the energy put in becomes hydrogen), but thats the same in all chemical reactions.

Makes me kind of suspicious about the rest of the claims being made in this article. Anyone got a pinch of salt i can borrow?

Zen Dog
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[cagiva gezzer]

Bugger, why does it always lose stuff?!?

Attached is a pdf document (rename it from mp3 to pdf) looking at future fuel propulsion systems. In short, the final findings were: