tyres Vs Suspension

[tack]

Hi guys,

I'm new here and new to bikes. So g'day.

Anyway, my question relates to a discussion I had with a friend of mine regarding suspension tuning vs tyres. The thing is I've have had a heap to do with race cars with slicks and suspension but nothing to do with bikes. So I know nothing about 'em and any opinion/knowledge would be appreciated.


So here's the question:

If you were to take a brand new 2005 ZX10R to a race track just for example (with a steering damper fitted just for good measure). Any bike would do for the example, doesn't matter which one but as long as it isn't the worst handling bucket of bolts that ever shook its way down the road. Just choose a bike that's pretty mainstream and typical of current bike performance. ok.

The circuit would preferably be a tightish track that favours grip and handling. Ok. So.....

If you could spend a week at the track setting up the suspension on the standard tyres. Money isn't a problem so you can have your choice of brands and types including springs and lengths etc etc. You can even have data loggers and shock dyno's and technicians and engineers. The idea is that you have to set up that bike, using suspension only on standard tyres to go as fast as possible and clock the fastest lap. You have to set the fastest time possible using suspension only. Ok...got that...good

Now, if you were to take the same stock standard ZX10R (including steering damper), with its original stock suspension (obviously new and in good condition and excluding evil handling bikes that might be an exception to the norm). You have your choice of any size or construction or brand or compound of tyre available in the world today and you have a week to test tyres to find the quickest and best tyre for that track. The idea being that you use tyres only and not make any adjustments to suspension settings and your aim is to set your fastest possible time. ( and please the suspension isn't running out of travel or bottoming or anything silly...ok..and its not pogoing down the track either...its just nice normal everyday suspension)

ok...so the question is...which would be quicker..the suspension route or the tyre route??

please give your reasons and any examples as well.

And yes I do realise that good set up is important as well as good tyres and one compliments the other and you want both to be fantastic but this just a "what if" thing, just for the fun of it.

PS exclude as many other variables as possible..just compare one to the other.

thanks

ps please be nice too...lol

[paulthewitt]

[G]

Stock suspension on modern sports bikes is fairly good, so I'd go for tyres first.

It's not a problem keeping up with the fast group on trackdays; and even racers with stock suspension and decent tyres.

While stock tyres are fairly good these days, I think you'll still get more from the tyres.

[Hex]

If the zx10r was on decent road tyres, getting the suspension set up correctly would give the biggest gains in my opinion.

If the suspension is "tuned" to the rider it can affect everything from stability to quickness that it will turn. SO will give the largest gains.

Having sticky tyres is lovely but if the back ends bouncing all over as its too hard/soft etc whats the point of having a sticky tyre when its not on the road.
____________________
The BCF's very own Party boy! Though he's getting old and feeling it!
Monkey hanger, Born and bred
My little photo portfolio

[Black Knight]

Hmmm, interesting.

If the tyre choice allowed ANY tyre, I would say tyres.
Simply because racing slicks would be phenomonal.

Most sports bikes nowadays come with top end tyres anyway. Suspension is pretty good and certainly on the lastest bikes many come with Ohlins as OE.
____________________
Where does a turn end? 'Where you can do anything with the gas you want to, where you are brave again, where your attention is free from the turn, where you are sure you can do it better next time; that's the end' - Keith Code.

[craigs23]

I'd say tyres.

As already mentioned, stock suspension settings are very good on most new sports bikes - they've been set by the factory like that for a reason. (a lot of people, none-too-aware of suspension settings (I'm sure it's a dark art) make their settings worse by adjusting them incorrectly).

A good pair of hoops, once scrubbed in would give more of an immediate advantage. Long term, week of pro setup, I'd still say the tyres. Doesn't matter how good the suspension is, if there's no decent adhesion/damping rubber side, it won't act accordingly.

(I had a lot of problems when I got my new bike at the beginning of the year - a lot were down to crap, rigid, old tyres. No amount of suspension set up got rid of how bad they felt. Obviously new tyres won't be like that).

I think it's something that would be difficult to measure though, maybe not through lap times. How can you measure 'feel good' factor?

[Korn]

Tyres. You can work around suspension issues to a degree by adjusting your riding, but no matter what you do to the suspension if the grip isn't there it's a wasted effort - no matter how good OEM road tyres are getting these days. If it's a case of outright best time round a track, chuck some superglue compound qualifying slicks on there.
____________________
3516 Miles, 11 Countries

[tack]

thanks for replying and so quickly too

I wonder, do you guys generally feel that there is more time to be gotten out of correct tyre selection then out of correct suspension set up, if you could do both at a race track?

or is that really hard to answer!

[Kickstart]

Hi

Personally suspect it would depend on the choice of bike and the actual rider. Stick a light rider on a harshly sprung bike then the tyres are rarely going to be on the ground to have any effect (especially on a bumpy track), yet if the suspension is reasonably close for the rider / circuit then the tyres would have a great effect.

All the best

Keith
____________________
Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[craigs23]

I don't ride at the track, so all in all, track tests are interesting for me (to pick up advice/tips on a multitude of subjects) so settings/parts for road riding is key for my selection.

For that reason, selecting a good set of tyres is key before I start playing with suspension settings. (although settings are set to correct sag/approx settings before hand, i.e. factory settings) Selection is usually narrowed down to what kind of tyre I need (mostly an all rounded for a compromise between grip/feedback/durability/what roads I ride on) and also to what I have known works for me. I.e., I've always used Dunlops (have tried Michelins/Bridgestones before as well) and find them very well suited to what I like/comfortable with. Not saying that Dunlops are the best tyre out there, it's just what I feel comfortable with.

Once fully scrubbed in and I have ascertained confidence in the tyres, I can then determine (on a basic level) what needs to be adjusted on the suspension to further improve things/make me feel confident. Original settings are always taken note of in case things go a bit wrong with my fiddling.

[fuzz]

I reckon getting the suspension right would contibute to a better lap time. Ultra-sticky rubber may give you super lean angles but getting the suspension correct will make the bike much more stable, so you can get a perfect line in every corner.

All you can change with the tyres is the amount of grip available, all you can change with the suspension is how it reacts under braking/acceleration, turn-in rate, front/rear weight ratio...
____________________
https://www.bikepics.com/members/fuzzbcf/
Bikes: '99 NSR125R, '00 SV650S, K1 GSX-R600, '97 CB500, K3 SV1000S, '16 VFR800

[G]

I've ridden an r6 with stock suspension fairly competitivly in the fast group at trackdays. Seen it go even faster with someone else onboard; though unfortunately I never got the chance to use that one in a real race.

If I was to spend money on a modern sports bike, it would be tyres.

But that's partly because most come with pretty good suspension as standard.

Fuzz: note that tyres can change quite a bit more than just 'grip' - to the point you may have to change suspension settings to get the best out of a different brands sticky tyres from the 'normal' sticky tyres you might use.

[fuzz]

I agree so far as spending money on decent tyres over a new suspension set up. I meant that the job of the tyre is to stick to the road; create friction between itself and the tarmac and nothing more. Plus all the suspension set-ups in mags for different bikes are very rarely the sames as standard is what I was thinking about.
____________________
https://www.bikepics.com/members/fuzzbcf/
Bikes: '99 NSR125R, '00 SV650S, K1 GSX-R600, '97 CB500, K3 SV1000S, '16 VFR800

[G]

That is the job of suspension as well - to ensure the tyre sticks to the road. It's just that when you play with suspension a whole lot weirder side-effects can happen when it's not right .

[bish777]

If your concerned a good race tuner and preping outfit can sort you out on the suspension front.

Tim Blakemore in Bristol are an example of such an outfit.
____________________
GSXR1100J

[fuzz]

Well I've only got adjustable rear preload, so I think I'm OK for now
____________________
https://www.bikepics.com/members/fuzzbcf/
Bikes: '99 NSR125R, '00 SV650S, K1 GSX-R600, '97 CB500, K3 SV1000S, '16 VFR800