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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 13:29 - 20 Jul 2005    Post subject: M4 Speed cameras Reply with quote
Hi

Found this press release from Safespeed about the M4 cameras. Seems that Wiltshire scamera partnership are using dodgy figures to justify getting more cash from the M4 (possibly because they got caught of with a dodgy camera and need to get the profits up before the end of their financial year).

Safespeed wrote:

PR217: M4 Cameras: Accident causation data confirms Wiltshire lies

Accident causation data obtained by the Association of British Drivers from Wiltshire Constabulary confirms that speeding was not a serious problem on the M4 Motorway.

Recently Wiltshire and Swindon Camera Partnership claimed that their camera vans had reduced crashes on the M4 by over 60% - yet examination of crash causation data reveals that excessive speed was a factor in just 14% of crashes.

"Excessive speed" in these terms is NOT the same as exceeding a speed limit - it includes speed inappropriate for the conditions as well as speed in excess of the speed limit. Sample data from Avon and Somerset, Durham and Canada (the only such data we have been able to find) all put the split at 70/30 with 30% in excess of a speed limit. So our best estimate is that (30%*14%=) 4.2% of M4 crashes involved exceeding a speed limit.

Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign
(www.safespeed.org.uk) said: I would very much like to hear the Camera Partnership explain exactly how it is supposed to be possible that their cameras reduced crashes by over 60% when only about 4% of crashes involved exceeding a speed limit. It does not make sense. There is absolutely no mechanism by which their claims could be true."

Paul continues: "Speed cameras create vested interests and the vested interests repeatedly mislead the public about the nature of road dangers. UK road safety cannot get back on track until the vested interests have beendismantled and the truth is admitted."

Paul concludes: "The Government will now have to admit that they were entirely wrong about speed cameras - and the sooner the better. Far from making the roads safer they have damaged the foundations of British road safety by squandering massive resources on a minor safety factor."


All the best

Keith
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 00:49 - 21 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Follow up to that. Here is the reason why they need to rake some cash in from the M4 to avoid making a loss.

Safespeed wrote:

PR218: Folly Bottom: all fines to be refunded (at last)

News: for immediate release

The CPS have called for all fines issued for speeding at the road works at Folly Bottom on the A303 in Wiltshire to be refunded. This follows a drawn out battle where many motorists were wrongly fined for allegedly exceeding a speed limit they couldn't know was there.

As far as we can tell around 6,200 motorists are affected, with the fines amounting to more than £372,000.

The speed limit laws are strict - if a speed limit isn't properly signed, then no one can be convicted for exceeding it. Safe Speed points out that this aspect of the law is fair and necessary, because no one can reasonably be expected to observe a speed limit if they didn't have any way of knowing that it existed.

Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign
(www.safespeed.org.uk) said: "I hope any motorist who has suffered any loss as a result of this wrongful application of the law will be able to obtain proper compensation without too much difficulty. Of course, if anyone lost their driving licence and their job as a consequence then the compensation could be considerable."

Paul continues: "It was soon after the court cases exposing the Folly Bottom 'folly' that the Wiltshire and Swindon Camera Partnership announced that they would be placing camera vans on the M4 motorway. I wonder if they have made up the deficit yet?"

Safe Speed recommends that motorists should ensure that any alleged case against them is accurate, complete and legal BEFORE they pay any fixed penalty. There are far too many errors being made by greedy camera partnerships.

The partnerships may not 'recover costs' from court fines - only from fixed penalty tickets.


All the best

Keith
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 00:53 - 21 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Few more details about the dodgy facts used by Wiltshire scamera partnership to justify the cameras. Note how one of the accidents that was used to justify cameras was a pedestrian falling off a bridge!

ABD wrote:

New research undermines M4 cameras

New research from road safety group the Association of British Drivers today damned the M4 speed cameras as "a massive mistake". The Association was also charged £111 for access to vital information about the causes of crashes which, it believes, should have been made public.

In data provided by Wiltshire Constabulary, driver inattention topped the list of accident causes, followed by poor lane changing and careless/reckless behaviour. In fact, not one single accident had excess speed as the sole cause.

But included in the crashes that allowed the Partnership to use speed cameras were:

- an accident where a pedestrian fell from a bridge
- an accident where a gust of wind pushed one lorry into another
- several tyre blowout accidents
- a crash where a car drove the wrong way up the motorway

"Excess speed" came fifth on a list of accident causes along with driver fatigue. "Excess speed includes accidents where vehicles were travelling within the speed limit but too fast for the conditions - e.g. fog - where cameras could have no effect.

Mark McArthur-Christie, the ABD's Road Safety Spokesman, said "These statistics show clearly that speed is far from the most significant factor in crashes - but no matter what the causes, the Partnership still thinks cameras are the solution. These figures show that cameras on the M4 will do absolutely nothing for road safety. They should be withdrawn immediately."

In investigating the causes of M4 crashes, the ABD found that hard data was next to impossible to acquire. The camera Partnership even initially denied that they held data on the causes of crashes. After requesting information from a range of departments and organisations, a request under the Freedom of Information Act was also turned down. The ABD was finally forced to pay £111 to Wiltshire Constabulary for the data.

McArthur-Christie continued, "This data - now we've forced it into the public domain - raises very serious questions about the use of speed cameras on the M4. It also raises questions about why the data has not been made public before."

Brian Gregory, the ABD's Chairman, said "This work shows clearly that we need to get away from the whole "the answer's a speed camera, now what's the question?" approach to road safety. We also want to see them forced to publish the causes of crashes they use to justify cameras."


Notes for editors

The major causes of M4 crashes, 1999-2004 were:

Inattention - a factor in 28% of crashes Failure to judge others' path or speed (ie - poor lane changing) - a factor in 28% of crashes Lack of judgement of own path - a factor in 17% of crashes, Fatigue - a factor in 14% of crashes Careless, thoughtless or reckless behaviour - a factor in 14% of crashes Excess speed - a factor in 14% of crashes

"Excess speed" is speed which is too fast for the conditions as well as speed in excess of the posted limit. As such, it is impossible to find out how many crashes were caused by drivers exceeding the limit and how many by simply too fast for the conditions.

Significantly, the causes of crashes are given rankings by accident
investigators. They class causes as definite, probable and possible. "Excess speed" was ranked as a "definite" cause in just one fatal crash - less than 1% of all accidents.

*Data from Wiltshire Constabulary, M4 crashes 1999-2004


All the best

Keith
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bazza
World Chat Champion



Joined: 27 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 00:59 - 21 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Few more details about the dodgy facts used by Wiltshire scamera partnership to justify the cameras. Note how one of the accidents that was used to justify cameras was a pedestrian falling off a bridge!


Yeah, but he was accelerating at 9.8 m/s/s...
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ian_s
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Joined: 20 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 01:44 - 21 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
I take it your against the cameras Keith?!

They have some working 24hrs a day don't they? I also hear rumours that they were planning some fixed ones on the bridges.

The other thing annoying me about the M4 is the roadworks. I travel from Bristol to London most weekends and pass three sets of roadworks. How many times do you think I see any evidence of any work having been carried out or people working?

Cheers

Ian
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 02:32 - 21 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
bazza wrote:
Yeah, but he was accelerating at 9.8 m/s/s...


Low terminal speed though.

ian_s wrote:
I take it your against the cameras Keith?!


Could say that. While I think there is the odd reasonable one I think that they are abused so much these days that the only solution is to tear them all out.

ian_s wrote:
The other thing annoying me about the M4 is the roadworks. I travel from Bristol to London most weekends and pass three sets of roadworks. How many times do you think I see any evidence of any work having been carried out or people working?


Very rarely. It is too much like hard work to apply for seperate local speed limits for road works, so they just tend to apply for one 40 / 50 limit over a few miles and then just occasionally work on the off 100 yard stretch.
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foxbat
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 09:34 - 21 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Interesting read! I couldn't agree more with their findings - poor driving , not excessive speed in isolation, is almost always the problem.

I have to say i've not seen any of the mobile cameras in action on my trips down the M4 (From J11-15) for ages - are they still in force?
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