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Advancing timing = power increase?

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knockout_bar
Scooby Slapper



Joined: 06 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: 23:13 - 24 Jul 2005    Post subject: Advancing timing = power increase? Reply with quote

The timing on my 125 at the moment is wayyyy out. When it's idle-ing (1,500 rpm) if you leave it, the engine just dies and it boggs out when you try and open the throttle. You have to open the throttle slowly for it to rev up.

I know the above problem does NOT lie in the carburettor! I had the carb off two days ago, cleaned the jets put it back on and it didn't make any difference.

If I get the timing to the standard, is there any way I can advance it to get a slight power increase? You can get ignition advancing kits, but I don't really want to fork out £60 for one of those.

I'm thinking of getting a smaller back sprocket and a bigger front sprocket to get a bit more speed (I don't really like cruising at 7,000 rpm on a 4 stroke...). I really want to squeeze as much power as I can out of this beast. I think the bike has a lot more potential than it does a the moment (restricter in the downpipe which is going).

Anything I can do to the bike to give it a bit more kick? (It's embarrasing, my friends CG125 has more acceleration than mine, please help! Embarassed )
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 23:17 - 24 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Advancing the timing does give you more power (generally), right up to the point you burn a hole in the piston.

Depends on the bike. Older RS125 then you just adjust the timing by moving the stator slightly. Most bikes you need to more the rotor. Believe you can get slightly offset woodruff keys to do this.

All the best

Keith
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knockout_bar
Scooby Slapper



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PostPosted: 23:27 - 24 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks,

The bike runs off the magneto, not the battery (the bike starts and runs with the battery disconnected). I think (hope) I can advance the timing by the stator.
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 14:12 - 25 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it is a copy of a Japanese 125 and has a CDI rather than points ignition, you will probably find there is an advance curve built in anyway. Even 1970's hondas had an auto-advance built in to their points systems.

If it were me, I would set the ignition timing to bang-on standard (assuming it is a points ignition, CDi ones are usually fixed timing anyhow). You'll just land up with the engine pinking and burning a hole in the top of your piston by advancing the ignition much more than they aready are advanced.

My last small honda 4-stroke used to redline at 11,000rpm so I wouldn't be overly concerned at a 7,000 rpm cruise. I sat my 1981 CB125 at between 9-10k rpm for a solid 250 miles a wee bit back and it never missed a beat. They tend to have a pretty short stroke which means high revs.

One more thing. Your problem sounds to me more like there is an air leak round the inlet manifold. Try spraying some EZ start over the rubbers when the bike is ticking over. If it revs up, you have an air leak.
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knockout_bar
Scooby Slapper



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PostPosted: 19:34 - 25 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks,

There is a rubber link/tube between the carb and the head, but the inside of the link/tube is metal.

My 1978 Kwak KE175 has electronic ignition (CDI), but the timing is set by the pulser coil (on the stator, under the magneto). So I figured that since my engine starts and runs with the battery connected, then you should be able to move the stator plate to advance/retard the timing.

When I put the carb back on the other day, I sealed the join with gasket glue. The bike misfires even sometimes at high rpm, not just at tickover.

Do you think the restrictor in the downpipe could be causing this? (I know it's there, I've had the pipe apart and seen it with my own eyes)
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knockout_bar
Scooby Slapper



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PostPosted: 20:24 - 25 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thing I should mention is that when I first got the bike, it started from cold (choke fully open) first kick. It now takes about 6/7 really hard kicks (choke fully open) to start from cold...
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



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PostPosted: 21:19 - 25 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way to 'dial in' the ignition timing on a fixed CDI ignition that I have seen is to first make a mark across the stator plate and the crankcase to allow you to identify the 'standard' position later.

Then take off the stator plate and slot out the screw holes that are used to hold it in place. When you put it back on, you should be able to rotate the plate around its axis to advance or retard the ignition using your mark as a datum.

The more you say, the more I think there is something more fundamental wrong with your bike. If it was running fine before and is now running crap, you want to sort that first before attempting to 'tune' it.

If I were you I would get the manual out and do everything listed under a major service. Restore everything to factory settings. I would also do a compression test.

Tuning an engine that is not running sweet as a nut to start with is a recipe for disaster, you will only exaggerate any problems you had when it was in a lower state of tune.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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knockout_bar
Scooby Slapper



Joined: 06 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: 21:36 - 25 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
The way to 'dial in' the ignition timing on a fixed CDI ignition that I have seen is to first make a mark across the stator plate and the crankcase to allow you to identify the 'standard' position later.

Then take off the stator plate and slot out the screw holes that are used to hold it in place. When you put it back on, you should be able to rotate the plate around its axis to advance or retard the ignition using your mark as a datum.

The more you say, the more I think there is something more fundamental wrong with your bike. If it was running fine before and is now running crap, you want to sort that first before attempting to 'tune' it.

If I were you I would get the manual out and do everything listed under a major service. Restore everything to factory settings. I would also do a compression test.

Tuning an engine that is not running sweet as a nut to start with is a recipe for disaster, you will only exaggerate any problems you had when it was in a lower state of tune.


There is pleanty of compression, haven't tested it but it aint easy to kick over! I don't actually have a manual for the bike (I don't think there is one...)

I honestly don't know what is wrong with the bike. It's a 2004 copy of a honda XL125, so brand new. It seems to have gotten worse since I got the bike. The only thing I can think of is a tiny hole in the downpipe (I closed it up as much as possible, but you can hear it blowing...). The bike was getting gradually worse even before the hole in the pipe appeared.

Could piston/barrel be shagged (please don't be)? When you start the bike from cold, you have to have a bit of throttle (rev it up to 3,000 rpm) to keep the engine running. My mate has a CG125 (same engine as my bike) and hardly uses any choke when starting his bike from cold, revs it up really high, but his bike's performance hasn't deteriorated. Confused
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Last edited by knockout_bar on 22:16 - 25 Jul 2005; edited 1 time in total
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 22:05 - 25 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I presume you have checked the following:

Fuel filter.
Fuel line.
Air filter.
Oil level.
Sparkplug.
Tappets.
Carb settings.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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knockout_bar
Scooby Slapper



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PostPosted: 22:14 - 25 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
So I presume you have checked the following:


stinkwheel wrote:
Fuel filter.

Doesn't have one.

stinkwheel wrote:
Fuel line.

Yup, no problems.

stinkwheel wrote:
Air filter.

Again checked and no problems.

stinkwheel wrote:
Oil level.

Pleanty, but I will replace soon. Hasn't been changed for about 2,000 miles... Embarassed

stinkwheel wrote:
Sparkplug.

Changed it the other week.

stinkwheel wrote:
Tappets.

I presume you mean the fuel tap? If so then yes, and both settings work fine.

stinkwheel wrote:
Carb settings.

The mixture screw is in a real awkward position, but i'll have a tweak with it tomorrow.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 11:18 - 26 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Possible that the problem is just something like a dodgy coil.

The XL125 does not use the same engine as the CG125. The CG is a pushrod lump, the XL an OHC engine.

Often a starting problem is down to a weak mixture, sometimes caused by an air leak. Also possibly caused by carb adjustment of just rubbish in the carb.

By tappets he means adjusting the valves. If the valve clearances are too tight them you will have problems starting the bike, although it will probably get worse as it gets hotter.

All the best

Keith
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knockout_bar
Scooby Slapper



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PostPosted: 11:24 - 26 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:
Hi

Possible that the problem is just something like a dodgy coil.

The XL125 does not use the same engine as the CG125. The CG is a pushrod lump, the XL an OHC engine.

Often a starting problem is down to a weak mixture, sometimes caused by an air leak. Also possibly caused by carb adjustment of just rubbish in the carb.

By tappets he means adjusting the valves. If the valve clearances are too tight them you will have problems starting the bike, although it will probably get worse as it gets hotter.

All the best

Keith



I don't really feel up to taking the head off (i'm used to two strokes).


Oh, is there anything that should be tightened in the engine after the 1,000 mile mark? (The bike hasn't had any services since I got it new)
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 13:30 - 26 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

knockout_bar wrote:



I don't really feel up to taking the head off (i'm used to two strokes).


Oh, is there anything that should be tightened in the engine after the 1,000 mile mark? (The bike hasn't had any services since I got it new)


You should adjust the tappets (valve clearances). Ten to one shot the valve clearances have closed up and this is something you should check at every main service...definatley at the first service.

It is not a head off job, you just need to take off the rocker cover to check the tappets with a feeler guage. They usually adjust with a locknut and adjuster screw on the rocker on small bikes like that.

Be warned, small hondas use a very tight valve clearance. If the clearance tightens up too much, they will burn out the exhaust valve and seat which would be a major pain in the arse. At worst it would mean a new head.

I recommend you get yourself a workshop manual for your bike, or at least an XL125 one. This will tell you how to adjust the tappets, it isn't hard.

You do have a fuel filter, or it is the first bike in history to be made without one. It is probably on the inside of the tank sitting over the top of the fuel tap.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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sudds
Borekit Bruiser



Joined: 14 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: 12:20 - 27 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:
Hi

The XL125 does not use the same engine as the CG125. The CG is a pushrod lump, the XL an OHC engine.




Most Cg's under around 10 years old are OHC and the new ones defiantly are. I checked on the honda site.
Sudds
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 15:16 - 27 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

sudds wrote:
Most Cg's under around 10 years old are OHC and the new ones defiantly are. I checked on the honda site.
Sudds


Just checked the Honda site and they are still not OHC engine. Still the old pushrod OHV engine.

All the best

Keith
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sudds
Borekit Bruiser



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PostPosted: 15:41 - 27 Jul 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoops mistake on my part sorry, But my friend does have a newer Cg with a OHC engine must have been swapped with a XL's engine.
Sudds
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