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Speed camera doubles accidents

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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 19:14 - 03 Aug 2005    Post subject: Speed camera doubles accidents Reply with quote
Hi

https://www.people.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15800504%26method=full%26siteid=55768%26headline=speedcam%2ddoubles%2dsmashes%2don%2dm%2dway-name_page.html

Newpaper wrote:

SPEEDCAM DOUBLES SMASHES ON M-WAY Jul 31 2005

So naturally they've now put TWO more on same 1M stretch

By Nigel Nelson And David Brown


ROAD smashes doubled on a mile-long stretch of motorway AFTER a speed camera went up.

And now traffic chiefs have sparked fury by installing two MORE of the hated yellow traps in the same place.

There were only 10 accidents on the East London bend of the M11 in the three years before the first speedcam was installed in 2001.

Only five had anything to do with speed and only two people were severely injured.

But in the following three years - after a 50mph limit was introduced along with the trap - there were EIGHTEEN crashes, new figures reveal.

Eleven were linked with speed and FIVE people were severely hurt, the Transport Department disclosed.

Angry campaigners claim accidents on the stretch of road near the end of the motorway soared because drivers brake sharply when they spot the speedcam .

Motorist Pauline Caley, 42, said: "The speedcams make things more dangerous, not safer. You have to slow down really quickly from 70mph to 40mph and motorists slam on their brakes at the last moment."

Campaigners believe the statistics are yet more proof the devices are there to raise money for the Government rather than save lives. The first camera - which snares up to 2,000 drivers a day - notches up a staggering £840,000 a week in fines. And a big slice of that goes straight to the Treasury.

Local Tory MP Lee Scott said: "If the original camera isn't reducing speed-related accidents, why is it there?"

The Highways Agency said the new cameras enforce a 40mph limit to make it safer for work on new road lights.


All the best

Keith
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TOM M
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PostPosted: 20:40 - 03 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Siggi wrote:
Somebody needs to sue these mass-murdering scum.


soemthing needs to be done, im gettign pissed off with all these shitty little ideas from the bastards who feel the need to control every aspect of our lives all the time.

Will they be praising the introduction of new speed cameras if one of thier family is killed because of one?
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gimpy limp
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PostPosted: 12:27 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
doesn't matter what they do because they know full well they can get away with it!! they know how hard it is for people to leave the uk and emigrate - it's almost impossible to emigrate to the us (i've been trying) and they know people don't want to leave their families anyway so their going to do whatever they want.
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 12:47 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Steady gimpy limp. We're not forcing you to leave us. Just be a bit more responsible/mature in you driving manner.
Schools, busy streets and such need scamera enforcement coz some folks don't care for other people's safety.

I hate cameras so much I bought one of those scamera defector doodas. It works fine. Not had a ticket yet.
But I am driving a wheelchair.
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bazza
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PostPosted: 13:09 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Scameras are exactly that: a scam. For the cost of these things, it's quite possible to introduce changes to the road layout which reduces the speed of the traffic -which doesn't involve humps or potholes - i.e. chicanes.

Except for the fact that they like to put them on nice fast stretches of dually...
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 13:12 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
Schools, busy streets and such need scamera enforcement coz some folks don't care for other people's safety.


No they don't. Virtually nobody goes excessively fast, and you can bet that most of those who do are in nicked cars, or cars not registered to them, so they do not care about the cameras.

Speeding is a virtually irrelevant cause of accidents. Just that we have people whose pay is dependent on getting people to believe that speed kills so they will fiddle the figures as much as they can get away with.

All the best

Keith
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mchaggis
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PostPosted: 13:25 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
I imagine there will be a backlash given time, but I doubt the people responsible will suffer; they've got their pensions sorted out now (screw everyone else... Rolling Eyes ), and will just move onto sullying something else. Thumbs Down
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 13:32 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart, with respect. Hitting someone at 35mph plus will probably kill them. That's the reason we drive at 30mph in this country.
Speed kills.
Troo some shit head council wallies do find it amusing to skim profit from crime. But some cameras do help prevent accidents.
There not all bad.
Why do we need to speed through our towns?
If you have a nice looking bike is it not better to be seen, than be thought of as another arsehole driving too fast?
I'm in town for about five minutes before a 2hr run then 5mins to get home. No problems. I do go over but not mental.

Regards.
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biggerjohn
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PostPosted: 13:49 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
Kickstart, with respect. Hitting someone at 35mph plus will probably kill them. That's the reason we drive at 30mph in this country.
Speed kills.



sorry that bollocks

Quote:



The thirty-five mph lie
Examples

At 35mph you are twice as likely to kill someone as you are at 30mph. (official example)

At 20 mph 10% are killed
At 30 mph 50% are killed
At 40 mph 90% are killed
At 35 mph it takes an extra 21 feet to stop
Kill your speed or kill a child

Source

Ashton and Mackay 1979

Truth

It's a funny sort of lie this one. The figures and the claim are broadly true, it's just that free travelling speed and impact speed are almost unrelated to one another. Ashton's figures relate to vehicle speed at impact - but we're expected to assume that they refer to free travelling speeds.

We know from official figures from 2001 (for example) that 0.7% of child pedestrians injured in accidents with cars died. And we know that in 2001, 65% of cars at sample sites were exceeding the 30 mph speed limit. But the 0.7% of child pedestrians killed were in all speed limits. Clearly we would have expected more than half to be killed if the implied claim were true.



taken from SafeSpeed https://www.safespeed.org.uk/lie.html
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 13:54 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
Kickstart, with respect. Hitting someone at 35mph plus will probably kill them.


The reality is that people do not hit people at 35. Almost always they have braked and lost most of the speed. If the mantra about doing 40 you stand a 95% chance of killing someone had any basis in the real world then the number of deaths would be far higher than it currently is (or ever has been). Look at the numbers of pedestrians killed and compare that to those seriously or slightly injured and you will see that it is closer to 1% that are actually killed (and that is ignoring those who are not reported), which suggests the average impact speed is already way below 20mph.

Better idea is to prevent the accident in the first place, which can be done with decent road designs and seperating pedestrians from vehicles. Far more effective that making everyone drive slowly and half asleep, hoping that the increased number of accidents will be cancelled out by people going slowly.

Walloper wrote:
But some cameras do help prevent accidents.


Generally not, for various reasons. Some cause accidents by people concentrating on their speedos. Some cause accidents by pushing people onto less safe roads to avoid the cameras. Some cause accidents by allowing the police to ignore the roads (concentrating almost 100% on the causes of 5% of accidents while ignoring the cause of the other 95% is certainly going to increase deaths).

Deaths on the roads have barely changed for years. Last year was the first year they had dropped in ages, and that is despite massive improvements in vehicle design, harder driving tests, etc.

Walloper wrote:
Why do we need to speed through our towns?


Why do the town speed limits need to be rammed out into rural areas? Why are urban dual carraigeways with no pedestrian access getting 40mph speed limits? Why are people being done by camera for doing 32mph in a 30 limit?

Personally I try and keep to urban limits, but being honest it is very rare that I see anyone (now, or in the past before cameras were dumped on us) going excessively quickly, and those few would be better dealt with on the spot .

Walloper wrote:
I'm in town for about five minutes before a 2hr run then 5mins to get home. No problems. I do go over but not mental.


Around here we have rural trunk roads with 50mph limits covered in cameras. We have talivans on fast dual carraigeways. We have no traffic police at all (disbanded a few years ago).

All the best

Keith
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R4nger
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Joined: 05 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: 14:00 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
Kickstart, with respect. Hitting someone at 35mph plus will probably kill them. That's the reason we drive at 30mph in this country.


IF you hit them at 35mph. Remember, you have stopping distances and amazingly you can steer left and right unless your doing your makeup. I agree with the 30mph limit in some areas but not all. Soon there will be 20mph limits without traffic calming.
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 14:10 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
OK ya b4starts! Speed if you want.
But hit me any of my family or friends and I'll batter your fu(king heads in respectively.

Do not believe the tosh about 'It's OK to speed statistic shit.'
Same as it's OK to smoke tobacco and do weed.
Run into a wall at 15 miles an hour and tell me if it din't hurt.

YOU ARE THE REASON WE HAVE SPEED CAMERAS BUT YOU DON'T SEE IT!'

The coffee is brewing..!

I'm off out now
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MikeyC
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PostPosted: 14:12 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Siggi wrote:

"Lives matter...unless we can make a dollar, in which case fuck your lives."


I like that slogan Thumbs Up
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map
Mr Calendar



Joined: 14 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 14:26 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
R4nger wrote:
...Soon there will be 20mph limits without traffic calming.

I recall in an earlier thread I quotes the scamera line that speed reduction by 1mph will result in 5% less deaths.

So taking that to it's logical conclusion reducing speed limits by 20mph would result in 100% less deaths. If you don't think that would happen then you're obviously a fool as statistics don't lie do they Wink

Obviously for 20mph limits this would cause a problem. Having thought about this I think that for these zones these should be an entry area where you have someone to walk in front of your vehicle carrying a red flag through the zone. That'd be a win-win situation, no more accidents/road deaths and creating employment for the people carrying flags Thumbs Up Where's the contact details for my MP, I'll get in touch with him right away to suggest it - Oh, Doh! forgot, they're on holiday Rolling Eyes

<edit>To get around the problem just put to me, what happens if you live in a 20mph zone. The answer is easy, you'll call a number (premium rate obviously, to offset the administration costs of new red flags) to book your flag carrier before you can leave.</edit>

Oh, yes I nearly forgot, remember it's lies, damn lies and statistics.
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Last edited by map on 14:35 - 04 Aug 2005; edited 1 time in total
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G
The Voice of Reason



Joined: 02 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 14:26 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wallyoper wrote:
YOU ARE THE REASON WE HAVE SPEED CAMERAS BUT YOU DON'T SEE IT!'

But what if Keith doesn't hit anyone while speeding, because he can actually control a vehicle? While someone that isn't so focused is looking at their speedo, to ensure they don't get 'flashed'.
I would suggest that you are the reason we have speed cameras; you are quite happy to believe what you are told about them, without questioning the 'statistics' it seems.

Quote:
But hit me any of my family or friends and I'll batter your fu(king heads in respectively.

So if one of your family of friends was injured in an accident, you would get yourself sent to prison or seriously injured yourself, to help them out? Nice.
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biggerjohn
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Joined: 11 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: 14:32 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
OK ya b4starts! Speed if you want.
But hit me any of my family or friends and I'll batter your fu(king heads in respectively.

Do not believe the tosh about 'It's OK to speed statistic shit.'
Same as it's OK to smoke tobacco and do weed.
Run into a wall at 15 miles an hour and tell me if it din't hurt.

YOU ARE THE REASON WE HAVE SPEED CAMERAS BUT YOU DON'T SEE IT!'

The coffee is brewing..!

I'm off out now


Aw sorry I dint realise you worked for a scamera partnership but at least I now understand you.

You don’t want less people to die on the roads
You don’t want people to question the inaccurate statistics spouted by the scamera partnerships
You don’t want the money to stop flowing into the pockets of the partnerships
And you don’t want a P45 handed to you

Even so still I hope none of your family or friends are hit by a driver that’s had it drummed into him your safe if you stick to the speed limit even if you are driving like a twat or god forbid a driver that’s so concerned about going past a camera at 2mph over the speed limit so is watching the Speedo more than the road.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 14:36 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
OK ya b4starts! Speed if you want.
But hit me any of my family or friends and I'll batter your fu(king heads in respectively.


So if I am doing 35 when one of them runs out in front of me, but manage to slow down to 10 resulting in barely any injuries you will batter me, while you are quite happy for Joe Bloggs doing 30mph half asleep to run them down and 30 with a good chance of killing them?

Walloper wrote:
Do not believe the tosh about 'It's OK to speed statistic shit.'


The statistic shit is what we have been fed by the speed camera partnerships for years.

Walloper wrote:
Run into a wall at 15 miles an hour and tell me if it din't hurt.


Try running at 15mph into the back of a non moving van, then try the same into the back of a van that is accelerating away and doing 14mph because they saw you coming.

Walloper wrote:
YOU ARE THE REASON WE HAVE SPEED CAMERAS BUT YOU DON'T SEE IT!'


Why, do they want me to drive half asleep, with the remaining attention on the speedo, and run someone over?

All the best

Keith
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 14:44 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm wasting precious time and type here.
The Earth is indeed flat OK I will swallow.

Who ever said drive a vehicle looking at the speedo you twats?

You are meant to 'Glance' (That's a quick look to those who didn't know.) at the speedo.
Not to continue driving whilst trying to accertain current velocity.
If you can't judge what speed you are doing whilst driving then it's obvious you must have cheated in the driving test.
Oh Oh! I know what's comming next:
"Why do we have to sit a driving test?"
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R4nger
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PostPosted: 14:48 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you can judge your speed, why do you have a speedo?
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G
The Voice of Reason



Joined: 02 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 14:54 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
I'm wasting precious time and type here.
The Earth is indeed flat OK I will swallow.

Seems you have already.

If you wish to prove your point, coming back with some decent arguments would be a good start.
For instance corroberating evidence for the 'facts' you use.

Quote:
Who ever said drive a vehicle looking at the speedo you twats?

People do this. They shouldn't do, but they do.

They won't get done for dangerous driving because the gatso can't tell they aren't looking at the road when they are doing the speed limit.
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biggerjohn
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PostPosted: 14:55 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:


Who ever said drive a vehicle looking at the speedo you twats?



The government
All the speed cameras
All the inaccurate SPEED KILLS advertising on
TV
Radio
In the papers
In magazines
On posters
Road side flyers



And if you don’t you may lose your licence and you job if you need to drive for it
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 14:58 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
I'm wasting precious time and type here.


If you work for a camera partnership as suggested above, wasting time is your job.

As it is I have seen very little evidence to support cameras, except a sheep like mantra of "Camaras good, speed baaad", and cries of "what about the chiildreeen".

If deaths had continued to drop at the same rate as they were before the introduction of cameras thousands of people would still be alive today.

Walloper wrote:
Who ever said drive a vehicle looking at the speedo you twats?


Those who do not want to get done for 2mph over the limit. And there is no way you will keep to within 2mph without looking at the speedo (not that Gatso brand equipment is very accurate).

People do look at speedos when there are cameras around, far more than is necessary. Effects of paranoia (well, not paranoia really as they are out to get us) means people will look at their speedo regularly. Each glance is time when they are not looking at the road or concentrating on what they are doing. If it takes 1 second to going from looking ahead, read the speedo and refocus in the distance then that is the time it takes to loose around 20mph when braking hard.

Added to which if you force people to drive / ride much below their natural speed then their concentration will rapidly disappear. Lack of stimulation will just result in them ISFing*.

But if you are happy to see unnecessary deaths on the roads just to keep camera partnerships in business and pay the speedophiles who work there then I suppose that is your choice.

All the best

Keith

*Indulging in Sexual Fantasies
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mr jamez
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PostPosted: 15:19 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:

Schools, busy streets and such need scamera enforcement coz some folks don't care for other people's safety.


Have you driven around a school lately when they are all pouring out? they don't need cameras they need to educate the fucking kids on how to cross a road, because they have not got a clue. Can't say I have EVER seen anyone speeding round a school, funny how all the near misses are at low speed due to people not paying attention, telling their kids off in the car etc Smile though I guess if they do the limit they are safe.

There is a stretch on the A4155 (henley road), beside it is shiplake college, one of the teenagers that goes there was killed on the road. The limit was reduced to 30 from 60 and a camera was plonked their, I believe this kid was killed by a joyrider in a nicked car. They now have a scamera van just up the road catching people coming from the 50 - 30, it is hidden on the corner of the road just over the crest of a hill, some nice 'slamming on brakes action'.

Just some random things that came into my head, come up with some decent opposition to what Kickstart has said and perhaps somebody will listen, but what you say (at best) is total lies.
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colin1
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Joined: 17 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: 15:36 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
If everyone was paying attention when driving and had good reactions, we could have speed limits of 60mph in town and 120 mph on motorways.

Unfortunately some people would mistakes and people would get more hurt than they do at the moment.

Most speed cameras are successful at reducing speed. There are all sorts of side affects and some cameras may cause more accidents than they reduce, but on the whole I think they are good for the country. Keeping speeds down means more time to react and less damage on impact. Sometimes locations for cameras need to be better thought out and signs warning of speed cameras should always give the speed limit on that road. People often slow down to 30 on a 40 just to be sure as they arent certain what the speed limit is at that point.

I might not always ride within the speed limit but Id like everyone else to and so I'm willing to have to ride within the speed limit.

Having said this, i enjoy the fact that a bike only has one number plate so if a camera flashes towards you, they have nothing.

I know that without speed cameras, I for one would get into the habit of riding fast everywhere knowing it was unlikely I wd ever get stopped. I know some people ae worse than me.

speed cameras may tax slight speeders, but they also stop speeding lunatics.

If people cant react safely to a speed camera, they wdnt be able to react safely to a hazard in the road. If they were going at the right speed in the first place, they wdnt need to slam on the brakes.
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TOM M
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PostPosted: 15:36 - 04 Aug 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:

I'm in town for about five minutes before a 2hr run then 5mins to get home. No problems. I do go over but not mental.

Regards.


Walloper wrote:
YOU ARE THE REASON WE HAVE SPEED CAMERAS BUT YOU DON'T SEE IT!'


haven't tou just contradicted yourself?
blaming us and how we speed for the introduction of scameras when you have admitted you speed yourself,

Even if it is just a bit over, it is still speeding and them extra few miles an hour could make the difference between someone living and dying.
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