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froggy128
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Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: 09:00 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: fuel protest Reply with quote
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4221296.stm
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innominate This post is not being displayed because it has a low rating (Confusing). Unhide this post / all posts.

bigdazz
Borekit Bruiser



Joined: 21 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: 09:38 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Good on them while the disruption will be a pain we need to take a stand against these crazy prices £1 a litre is taking the piss.
I will be filling up all of my spare fuel cans> Wink
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Mr.Everready
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PostPosted: 10:10 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
innominate wrote:
If any of these retards try and do a slow down in front of me they will lose their mirrors.


So are you happy about paying the government 70p for your litre of fuel ? Rolling Eyes
At least these guys are standing up and fighting. They are fighting for everyone not just themselves.
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innominate
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Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 10:34 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tbh I don't want to pay anyone for my fuel...



As far as I see it the price of petrol will keep going up whatever happens, as it is a limited resource.
The government should lower taxes only to stop the price raising by massive amounts, ie keep the upward price movement slower.


& the protesters can fuck off.
If they cause me problems then I have no sympathy for them.
Like they did last time, it was just a pain.
Hopefully the refinerys will just accidentally blow up when they are outside, solve the protest very quickly :p
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I, as a responsible adult human being, will never concede the power to anyone to regulate my choice of what I put into my body, or where I go with my mind. From the skin inwards is my jurisdiction, is it not? I choose what may or may not cross that border. Here I am the customs agent. I am the coast-guard. I am the sole legal and spiritual government of this territory, and only the laws I choose to enact within myself are applicable.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 11:03 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

They have my support. Those who want to be ripped off can object to the protests, but they might like to send a check for, say, £1000 to the treasury to pay for the tax rises prevented by the last protest.

A £1 litre of fuel is 63p tax.

For once the sharp rise in price is not due to tax, but prices should go down soon as the supply situation sorts itself out. However accept the current high prices and Gordon Brown will just take that as a sign to shaft us with higher fuel duty.

All the best

Keith
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map
Mr Calendar



Joined: 14 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 11:13 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
...A £1 litre of fuel is 63p tax....

Question what's the working on that. I thought tax on petrol was about 50p/litre plus VAT on the total selling price. My thinking is that would make it a bit more than 63p.

Kickstart wrote:
...prices should go down soon as the supply situation sorts itself out....

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy that's the funniest thing I've read in a while. Can I ask what colour the sky is on your planet. Do you also believe in Father Christmas and the tooth fairy? I do hope they let you out of the asylum sometime soon Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Thumbs Up
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froggy128
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PostPosted: 11:15 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
they put prices up at times like these but forget to bring them back down.
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innominate
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Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 11:16 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
I honestly don't think that £1 is a rip off.
Considering the unforunate detrimental effects petrol has when used :/


Anyway you should look on the bright side.
@ £1 per liter its easy to work out how much it will cost to fill your tank :p
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I, as a responsible adult human being, will never concede the power to anyone to regulate my choice of what I put into my body, or where I go with my mind. From the skin inwards is my jurisdiction, is it not? I choose what may or may not cross that border. Here I am the customs agent. I am the coast-guard. I am the sole legal and spiritual government of this territory, and only the laws I choose to enact within myself are applicable.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 11:18 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
map wrote:
Question what's the working on that. I thought tax on petrol was about 50p/litre plus VAT on the total selling price. My thinking is that would make it a bit more than 63p.


49p duty plus the VAT (which in a £1 gallon is 14~15p), making it about 63p tax

map wrote:
Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy that's the funniest thing I've read in a while. Can I ask what colour the sky is on your planet. Do you also believe in Father Christmas and the tooth fairy? I do hope they let you out of the asylum sometime soon Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Thumbs Up


Why, we are a long way from running out of oil, and the main reason that fuel prices have just jumped up 10p~20p is due to the hurricane in the USA that took out a large amount of refining capacity.

All the best

Keith
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 11:20 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
innominate wrote:
I honestly don't think that £1 is a rip off.
Considering the unforunate detrimental effects petrol has when used :/


What, forward motion?

All the best

Keith
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0ddball
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PostPosted: 11:28 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lets say there was going to be a protest starting on monday which blocked all tanker movement, what would you all do on Sunday night?

Exactly, you'd all go and fill your tanks to the top and probably a fair few jerry cans too. So instead of buying, for example £30 worth of fuel over the course of the week you'd spend £30 in one day then none for the rest of the week. Achieving nothing!

Fair enough, the government will lose money in other ways during the protests but so will Joe Public. With protests we cause ourselves as much trouble as we cause the government.

Somethine needs to be done but i can't see what this will acheive.
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map
Mr Calendar



Joined: 14 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 11:32 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
...we are a long way from running out of oil...fuel prices have just jumped up 10p~20p is due to the hurricane in the USA that took out a large amount of refining capacity...

A bit of a history lesson. Back in the 70s crude prices tumbled to about $10 a barrel. That meant the oil companies had over capacity. So they shut down and sold off the land to a good few refineries (talking worldwide here). So fast forward to the present day. No oil company has built any new refineries for 30 years. Demand for oil is increasing as economies like China grow and the higher standard of living makes more cars and consumer products. So petrol is delivered following a just in time philosophy. There are no reserves of refined products. So any blip in the supply chain causes panic and generates a fear of running short. If one country is willing to pay more to prevent this then prices for everyone else rises. Once a retail level has been set it's too easy to see an increase in profits should the supply side return to the norm and lower costs. Did you know that Europe has said it will sell oil to the USA. This is to prevent the panic reaction and fear that there will be loss of supply. So to say the price hike is just because of a hurricane is a bit lame.

Countries like France and Spain, who have to import all their petrol, have lower prices than the UK. That's because the UK has one of the lowest prices for petrol before tax in Europe. So any protest about the rate of tax on UK fuel has to be valid.

Thumbs Up
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innominate
Brolly Dolly



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 11:32 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:


What, forward motion?



I was referring to the Environmental effects of petrol combustion, which are in a word, bad. Something that does concern me.


That aside.
This may give people a better idea of the price breakdown for petrol.
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I, as a responsible adult human being, will never concede the power to anyone to regulate my choice of what I put into my body, or where I go with my mind. From the skin inwards is my jurisdiction, is it not? I choose what may or may not cross that border. Here I am the customs agent. I am the coast-guard. I am the sole legal and spiritual government of this territory, and only the laws I choose to enact within myself are applicable.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 11:40 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
SpannerMonkey wrote:
Fair enough, the government will lose money in other ways during the protests but so will Joe Public. With protests we cause ourselves as much trouble as we cause the government.


Very true, but what other choice is there. Personally I would regard the short term costs to me as an investment resulting in far greater gains in longer term. None of the other political parties will do anything different on fuel tax as they all regard it as easy money because they do not think road users have a voice.

However the government are likely to try divide and conquer tactics. Expect farmers and truckers to be bought off with tax rebates, and expect to pay more tax to subsidise these rebates.

I have no problems with paying taxes, as long as those taxes are fair. Getting ripped off on fuel while other forms of transport are subsidised is what really winds me up.

All the best

Keith
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byke95
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PostPosted: 11:44 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm all for action against such injustices but do blockades really do anything apart from disrupt ourselves?

The books always have to balance, if duty on petrol is frozen again or even decreased, tax on something else will just go up!
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 11:45 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Map - Fail to see how your quote disagrees with anything I said. Merely supports the point that this is a short term problem and not caused by oil running out. All that is happened is that to be profitable the refining capacity is marginal and when disrupted it has a large effect. The disruptions are not perminant, and supplies will return to normal in the non too distant future. (not today or next week, but in a couple of months)

innominate wrote:
I was referring to the Environmental effects of petrol combustion, which are in a word, bad.


They are also massively overstated.

byke95 wrote:
The books always have to balance, if duty on petrol is frozen again or even decreased, tax on something else will just go up!


Thumbs Up . So why not tax on a fair level, such as income tax, rather than randomly on private fuel useage (while public transport receives massive subsidies).

All the best

Keith
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Last edited by Kickstart on 11:47 - 07 Sep 2005; edited 1 time in total
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innominate
Brolly Dolly



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 11:48 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
innominate wrote:
I was referring to the Environmental effects of petrol combustion, which are in a word, bad.


They are also massively overstated.

All the best

Keith


Well from your point of view mby.
From my PoV they are not.

Agree to disagree?
____________________
I, as a responsible adult human being, will never concede the power to anyone to regulate my choice of what I put into my body, or where I go with my mind. From the skin inwards is my jurisdiction, is it not? I choose what may or may not cross that border. Here I am the customs agent. I am the coast-guard. I am the sole legal and spiritual government of this territory, and only the laws I choose to enact within myself are applicable.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 11:55 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
innominate wrote:
Well from your point of view mby.
From my PoV they are not.

Agree to disagree?


Fair enough.

All the best

Keith
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map
Mr Calendar



Joined: 14 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 11:59 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Map - Fail to see how your quote disagrees with anything I said. Merely supports the point that this is a short term problem and not caused by oil running out....

No disagreement, just wasn't talking about oil running out. Blaming the price hike only on a hurricane is wrong. Ok, some refineries in the USA are not producing but action has been taken to compensate for that. So why are they still high and likely to rise further?

When supplies return to normal I don't see petrol prices failing that much, certainly not to anything significant below 90p mark. IMO the oil companies will take the decision that we can stomach over 90p for unleaded and stick to that range, give or take the odd 0.9p.

I think you're right on the rebate for truckers and farmers. Heard on the radio this morning red diesel is 44p/litre. A farmer said that was double what it was a year ago and his tractor has a 200 litre tank and that can be used in a day.
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bigdazz
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Joined: 21 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: 12:05 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
only 20% of the revenue generated by road uses is actually spent on transport.



https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/business_petrol_pricing/html/1.stm
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 12:09 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
map wrote:
No disagreement, just wasn't talking about oil running out. Blaming the price hike only on a hurricane is wrong. Ok, some refineries in the USA are not producing but action has been taken to compensate for that. So why are they still high and likely to rise further?


Action has just been taken to compensate (US strategic reserves accessed), but not much action, and further action will not be taken for a week or 2 until a scheduled OPEC meeting. Prices will drop again, but the exact level they will drop to is not really known.

The oil companies are global. They do not care what UK consumers will accept. They are dependent on the prices for oil. Trying to overcharge will land up causes them massive legal problems in both the USA and Europe for price fixing. Found guilty and the fines are quite hideous (something like 10% of global turnover).

All the best

Keith
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Dan 4RR
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Joined: 02 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: 12:44 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Siggi wrote:
Good on them! Feck the govt where it hurts. Thumbs Up
I love You. Very Happy
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map
Mr Calendar



Joined: 14 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 12:53 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
...The oil companies are global. They do not care what UK consumers will accept.....

Very Happy I'm well aware what the oil companies are. They say they don't operate a cartel. They'll all say that at the same time. They also put up (and maybe down) prices at the same time. They don't operate as a cartel though Wink Rolling Eyes (and besides if anyone tried to prove they did don't you think with so much money sloshing around there wouldn't be any corruption/bribes?).
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 13:02 - 07 Sep 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Internationally OPEC is a cartel. However they just sell the oil to the highest bidder, and manipulate production levels to try and maintain a reasonable price for the oil. However those actually selling the oil to us are not a cartel, and the profit levels are tiny at any one stage. Adding 10p to a litre of fuel (which is about what you are suggesting) would probably be a 10 fold increase in their profits. Rather noticeable.

All the best

Keith
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