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Is This Justice?

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headlamp
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Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: 12:54 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Is This Justice? Reply with quote
Picked up my local paper to read a story about a young motorcyclist who was knocked off his bike by a drunk woman driver with a previous conviction. The young lad spent Christmas in hospital suffering multiple injuries, collapsed lungs (and is still in a coma). He will need ongoing therapy.

The driver received a £600 fine and three year ban and tried to get away from the scene of the accident.

The mother of the victim said "It's a disgrace that she has been let off so lightly. Is this justice? I don't think so."

Do you Question
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Robby
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PostPosted: 12:59 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
I do. More or less.

3 year ban is a lot. £600 fine isn't, but she can expect some hefty charges coming her way when the boy who got knocked off and her insurance company start sueing her.

Its hard to judge without knowing the full story - was she 5% over the limit or too pissed to walk? Was he at any fault? Was he drunk too?
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LustyLew
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PostPosted: 13:04 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Not at all. My personal opinion of these sort of circumstances is a total farce.

Your driving licence is a priviledge, not a right. Drink drivers, people who cause death by dangerous driving (this is all encompassing, not just car drivers) should have harsher penalties.

Drink drivers should have their licences removed permanently. Not given back after 12 or 24 months. They shouldn't be given the chance to 'have another go'. Explain that to this guys parents.

Drinking driving is not a mistake. Shunting someone in a que of traffic is a mistake.

The CPS are a bunch of pussies when it comes to driving offences.

But then of course, if someones banned, they cant get caught by cameras and generate revenue... Interesting...
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Retro-Man
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PostPosted: 13:04 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Justice is fucked

My mum died because some twat could not control his car, (going well over the speed limit, blind bend and ended up on the wrong side of the road) the inquiry recomended that no action be taken as the likely resulting custodial sentence would cause his family grief.
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dainesefreak
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PostPosted: 13:08 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's absolutely absurd that some motoring offences are processed completely differently to a normal criminal conviction. In my eyes this sort of offence is nothing less than attempted murder or manslaughter.
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Retro-Man
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PostPosted: 13:11 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
In my case the cps deemed the case unlikely to succeed and hence not worth pursuing because of the recorded comments at the enquiry Rolling Eyes
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.....
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Joined: 15 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: 13:14 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
robby wrote:
I do. More or less.

3 year ban is a lot. £600 fine isn't, but she can expect some hefty charges coming her way when the boy who got knocked off and her insurance company start sueing her.

Its hard to judge without knowing the full story - was she 5% over the limit or too pissed to walk? Was he at any fault? Was he drunk too?


What if you were the person she hit? Would you still think the same then?

I think the sentencing of motoring offences of this nature are a complete farce. If you were drunk and battered someone into a coma with a baseball bat then you would be sent to prison. I know it was a mistake on her part but the end result is the same - she wasn't in total control and because of this some innocent bloke is in a coma in a hospital bed.

I think custodial sentences are required for offences with results like this.
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JeffT
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PostPosted: 14:07 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Joe wrote:
robby wrote:
I do. More or less.

3 year ban is a lot. £600 fine isn't, but she can expect some hefty charges coming her way when the boy who got knocked off and her insurance company start sueing her.

Its hard to judge without knowing the full story - was she 5% over the limit or too pissed to walk? Was he at any fault? Was he drunk too?


What if you were the person she hit? Would you still think the same then?

I think the sentencing of motoring offences of this nature are a complete farce. If you were drunk and battered someone into a coma with a baseball bat then you would be sent to prison. I know it was a mistake on her part but the end result is the same - she wasn't in total control and because of this some innocent bloke is in a coma in a hospital bed.

I think custodial sentences are required for offences with results like this.


I agree with what ya saying although I'm not sure you could class it as a mistake. Anyone old enough to drive is also old enough to know if you have had too much to drink in order to drive. I just can't see there is ever an excuse for it.

Just my 2 cents.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 14:08 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Tend to agree with Robby on this one. I would say we certainly do not know enough to make a major judgement either way.

Joe wrote:
What if you were the person she hit? Would you still think the same then?


Is it appropriate to put yourself into the shoes of someone who will have a skewed opinion?

Joe wrote:
If you were drunk and battered someone into a coma with a baseball bat then you would be sent to prison.


Similarly if you were sober and ran over someone putting them in a coma in an accident that was the pedestrians fault (not saying it way, just an example) then you would probably have no penalty at all.

Joe wrote:
I know it was a mistake on her part but the end result is the same - she wasn't in total control and because of this some innocent bloke is in a coma in a hospital bed.


Where do we know that from? We do not know how drunk she was, let alone if it had any effect on the cause or outcome of the "accident".

Joe wrote:
I think custodial sentences are required for offences with results like this.


Sentences relate to the offence, not to the outcome of the offence which is highly random.

All the best

Keith
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map
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PostPosted: 14:28 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Re: Is This Justice? Reply with quote
headlamp wrote:
...Is this justice?...

IMO the law and justice are two different things that rarely come together.

The law is a devious entity in that it is interpreted. That means two people can come to different answers. Not good when someones future can depend on it.

Justice is what the majority of people deem as fair and, excuse the pun, just. A law is the supposed to be the embodiment of this idea. However, the law is only administered by a few. They also use their own language. So that's why the law and justice become skewed.

So, not justice, just following the law. Rolling Eyes Brick Wall
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headlamp
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Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: 16:40 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Sentences relate to the offence, not to the outcome of the offence which is highly random.


But surely a fine and a three year ban is just not good enough? Here was woman, who knowingly drove over the limit and clearly was not in control of her vehicle. She had done it before so knew the consequences if she got caught. The outcome, in this instance, was a motorcyclist left in a coma. The sentence in this instance is no deterrent to anyone - however a more punitive sentence (Not necessarily custodial) would act as a deterrent to stop people from drinking and driving. Why not more 'imaginative' sentences - like 10 year bans, confiscation of the motor vehicle (to pay for the hospital bills), community sentences etc. Unfortunately the quality of reporting in the local press (Barnet Press) ain't great so the facts aren't all there but prima facie I agree with the mother - the punishment does not fit the crime.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 16:53 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Possibly, but where do you draw the line. She had been drinking, but from the reporting we do not know if that was relevant to the accident. We have no idea if the accident was caused by the motorcyclist or not.

Short of "they are guilty, string em up", not sure how you can make the random consequences tie in with the specific crime.

To put it another way, rider x has a speeding ticket for doing 35 in a 30 limit. Several years later they run over a pedestrian while a little over the speed limit. Should they automatically be strung up for the offence?

All the best

Keith
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headlamp
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PostPosted: 17:27 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
To put it another way, rider x has a speeding ticket for doing 35 in a 30 limit. Several years later they run over a pedestrian while a little over the speed limit. Should they automatically be strung up for the offence?


Well again it depends on the circumstances - if one were to assume that the motorcyclist was not speeding, and just going about his business - likewise the old lady was just minding her own business and her actions had no bearing on the accident i.e she wasn't jay walking then the offence should be punished punitively. I broadly agree with you that what has occurred in the past should have little bearing on the sentencing - however I do think that £600 & three year ban is not enough - assuming the motorcyclist had no bearing on the accident other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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extreme3d
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PostPosted: 17:42 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
A 3 year ban is a long time and she would most likely loose her job because of it. Don't forget that this would also go on her criminal record and would not help her in trying to gain another job and/or future promotional prospects. In short her life has been altered for the worse due to her actions and she won't be able to forget it in a hurry.

Don't forget that whilst under the influence of alcohol she wouldn't have been deemed as being entirely responsable for her actions and this MUST be reflected.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 17:45 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
headlamp wrote:
however I do think that £600 & three year ban is not enough - assuming the motorcyclist had no bearing on the accident other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.


So what would be an appropriate sentence for being caught drink driving for a second time? And how does this relate to sentences for offences you have commited more than once?

As mentioned a 3 year ban will seriously screw up her life, even without the guilt of knowing what she was involved in.

All the best

Keith
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numark1
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PostPosted: 17:46 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
extreme3d wrote:
A 3 year ban is a long time and she would most likely loose her job because of it. Don't forget that this would also go on her criminal record and would not help her in trying to gain another job and/or future promotional prospects. In short her life has been altered for the worse due to her actions and she won't be able to forget it in a hurry.

Don't forget that whilst under the influence of alcohol she wouldn't have been deemed as being entirely responsable for her actions and this MUST be reflected.


What he said, it will screw her life up. No transport then unlikely she will be able to keep her job, criminal record so it will be difficult to get a new one.
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ashley_46
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PostPosted: 21:27 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Hi

Joe wrote:
I think custodial sentences are required for offences with results like this.


Sentences relate to the offence, not to the outcome of the offence which is highly random.



Just wanting to clear one thing up then. If you punch someone and they are fine afterwards then its assault, if they die its manslaughter. to me that seems to be punnishing someone on the outcome of the offence and not just the offence itself.
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T1z3R
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PostPosted: 21:32 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
its certainly not justice IMO and makes me angry.

a 3 year ban isn't a lot ( as mentioned above) considering if someone is likely to drink and drive (amounts don't matter IMO either...if you drink and drive then your a drunk driver end of story) then they're also likely to drive whilst banned.

she shold have been locked up for a period and banned from driving for life.

justice system sucks!
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 21:38 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
markcatate wrote:
extreme3d wrote:
A 3 year ban is a long time and she would most likely loose her job because of it. Don't forget that this would also go on her criminal record and would not help her in trying to gain another job and/or future promotional prospects. In short her life has been altered for the worse due to her actions and she won't be able to forget it in a hurry.

Don't forget that whilst under the influence of alcohol she wouldn't have been deemed as being entirely responsable for her actions and this MUST be reflected.


What he said, it will screw her life up. No transport then unlikely she will be able to keep her job, criminal record so it will be difficult to get a new one.


Or at job interviews on the job application form on the bit that asks if you've been convicted of anything she'll lie and say no (who ever checks this anyway? other than government jobs?) ,

and will live somewhere like London where there isn't an overwhelming need for transport unlike somewhere like cornwall , where life isn't easy sans transport.

OR she'll emigrate and start with a clean slate lying inthe application process
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 22:31 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
ashley_46 wrote:
Just wanting to clear one thing up then. If you punch someone and they are fine afterwards then its assault, if they die its manslaughter. to me that seems to be punnishing someone on the outcome of the offence and not just the offence itself.


But it isn't murder. By the way, assault is not hitting someone, it is putting someone in fear of being injured. The hitting someone is a different offence.

I take it those who are advocate harsh penalties would be happy with similarly harsh penalties if they are commiting an offence at the time they have an accident, irrespective of whether the offence had any impact on the cause or outcome (eg, riding an unrestricted bike on a 25kW at 25mph when a pedestrian steps out).

All the best

Keith
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ashley_46
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: 22:46 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
ashley_46 wrote:
Just wanting to clear one thing up then. If you punch someone and they are fine afterwards then its assault, if they die its manslaughter. to me that seems to be punnishing someone on the outcome of the offence and not just the offence itself.


But it isn't murder. By the way, assault is not hitting someone, it is putting someone in fear of being injured. The hitting someone is a different offence.

I take it those who are advocate harsh penalties would be happy with similarly harsh penalties if they are commiting an offence at the time they have an accident, irrespective of whether the offence had any impact on the cause or outcome (eg, riding an unrestricted bike on a 25kW at 25mph when a pedestrian steps out).

All the best5

Keith


Fair point but surely you agree that the majority of punishments for most crimes are totally ridiculous.

On a side note are your headlights moving in your avatar or are my eyes playing up.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 23:09 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
ashley_46 wrote:
Fair point but surely you agree that the majority of punishments for most crimes are totally ridiculous.


They are all over the place. Road offences seem to be treated very severely compared to those offences that always have a victim.

ashley_46 wrote:
On a side note are your headlights moving in your avatar or are my eyes playing up.


Shifty .

All the best

Keith
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MattyB
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PostPosted: 23:21 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
drink driving, reckless driving, (is he dies or had died) manslaughter, leaving the scene of accident

she should do time. atleast 6 months in jail, it's a disgrace.

go figure - drug related crimes get 21 years jail in some cases - yet this chick almost kills a guy and it's damn well her own fault - and she gets to drive again. shocking
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DrJustice
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PostPosted: 23:50 - 10 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
robby wrote:
I do. More or less.

3 year ban is a lot.


you and Mr Flip are having a laugh , she was drunk with a previous conviction for DUI , hit and run the victim has a collapsed lung !

A prison sentance of at least 6 months with a 10 year ban
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mattsmith95
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PostPosted: 00:00 - 11 Jan 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
No prison?

I got six months for road rage, how come the woman driver got off
with a slap on the wrist?
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