Help & FAQs    Search BCF    Members    Groups    Events Calendar
Resend my activation email : Register : Log in 
BCF: Bike Chat Forums


How come...

 Reply to topic
Bike Chat Forums Index -> Random Banter
 Topic moved: from Dear Auntie BCF... to Random Banter by G (26 Feb 2006 - 01:24)
 View previous topic : View next topic  
Author Message

MementoMori
World Chat Champion



Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 22:55 - 25 Feb 2006    Post subject: How come... Reply with quote
... you can breathe hydrogen and oxygen in but not water?
____________________
The tiger who came for a pint
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Rookie
World Chat Champion



Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Karma :
PostPosted: 23:16 - 25 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Because the alveoli in your lungs can only absorb oxygen is its gaseous form. I'm no biologist, but it may also be because as water, oxygen and hydrogen are bonded, but as a gas, they are seperate elements.

Fish must use a different system to absorb oxygen, which is why they can 'breathe' underwater. There bodies must be able to syphon out the oxygen from the hydrogen.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

haGGard
Nearly there...



Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 00:15 - 26 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
The alveoli have water on their surface though to help the transfer of gases though... (something i actually remember from a-level biology lol)

EDIT: But that thing you said about them being bonded elements sounds like a good point...
____________________
chaff mans random tingz on loot Razz
"Why dont you go and weld your face to a moving train, you sack of pus" - tobyr
"ROFL MY TOFFLE I AM TEH 1337 SPELLING MISTAKE FINDER!" - BikerBen
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Craggles
Traffic Copper



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 01:36 - 26 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rookie wrote:

Fish must use a different system to absorb oxygen, which is why they can 'breathe' underwater. There bodies must be able to syphon out the oxygen from the hydrogen.


The fish do not break the bonds between the Oxygen and Hydrogen atoms in the actual water (H2O), they merely seperate the free Oxygen (O2) molecules which are present in the water.

Even if they could break the bonds, they would probably need to then bond two Oxygen atoms together to get O2. This would take a lot of energy!

This is why it's good to have plants in your fish tank or pond (as plants produce Oxygen)

If the fish seperated the Oxygen from the Hydrogen in the actual water (H20) molecules, fish tanks and ponds would quickly become quite explosive!

Edit: In summary, life in general requires O2 for respiration to happen. Fish have the tools to extract free O2 molecules from water (the fact this is made up of Oxygen bonded to Hydrogen is irrelivant). We have the tools to extract free O2 molecules from air (which is made up of a lot of random gasses). No bonds are broken at this stage.

Of course, I'm no biologist and may be completley off track/wrong!

Craig
____________________
If this signature is blue, you're riding too fast
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website You must be logged in to rate posts

syl
World Chat Champion



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Karma :
PostPosted: 03:04 - 26 Feb 2006    Post subject: Re: How come... Reply with quote
MementoMori wrote:
... you can breathe hydrogen and oxygen in but not water?


You never been in a steam room?
____________________
Current bike: Kawasaki Z750S
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Suzuki
Roger



Joined: 03 May 2005
Karma :
PostPosted: 09:06 - 26 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
As Craggles said, fish don't breathe water, they breathe oxygen.

Water has dissolved oxygen in it, which they filter out from the water and absorb into their bodies. That's what the little bubble pipe does in all fish tanks - allows more oxygen to dissolve into the water. Plants help too.

Your lungs are designed to absorb oxygen in it's gaseous form. Fish gills are designed to absorb oxygen which is dissolved in water. Completely different system.
____________________
<Simple> no I'm shaven Jon Razz
<Simple> it is a big enough hole.. I'll leave it now
Ride: 1999 Suzuki GSXR600 (yellow/black) IRC: Stats - Relationship Map
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website You must be logged in to rate posts

The Old Geeza
Back in my day...



Joined: 25 May 2005
Karma :
PostPosted: 18:19 - 26 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
H2O

2 Hydrogen, 1 Oxygen.

The concentration of oxygen is not high enough in water to be produced as a gas.

Try this...

Put a pan of water on the stove and boil it. Long before the water reaches boiling point you will notice air bubbles accumulating on the inside of the pan and rising through the liquid. But, these air bubbles never reach the surface and there will be no bubbles on the top of the water. This is because the air bubbles don't yet have sufficient energy to overcome the hydrogen, and are absorbed back into the liquid before they can rise to the surface as a gas.

However, once the water is hot enough, the oxygen has sufficient energy (volume) to overcome (separate from) the hydrogen and bubbles start to appear on the top of the water.

Therefore, you could actually breathe under water if you could swim in boiling water, because there would be a high concentration of oxygen air bubbles within the liquid Shocked

Wanna' try it ?

Is any of this making any sense to anyone Question Confused



____________________
Horse Power was safer when the Horses had it!
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 18:54 - 26 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Old Geeza wrote:


Put a pan of water on the stove and boil it. Long before the water reaches boiling point you will notice air bubbles accumulating on the inside of the pan and rising through the liquid. But, these air bubbles never reach the surface and there will be no bubbles on the top of the water. This is because the air bubbles don't yet have sufficient energy to overcome the hydrogen, and are absorbed back into the liquid before they can rise to the surface as a gas.

However, once the water is hot enough, the oxygen has sufficient energy (volume) to overcome (separate from) the hydrogen and bubbles start to appear on the top of the water.

Therefore, you could actually breathe under water if you could swim in boiling water, because there would be a high concentration of oxygen air bubbles within the liquid Shocked

Wanna' try it ?

Is any of this making any sense to anyone Question Confused


Not really. When you boil water it does not split into hydrogen and oxygen, it is changing state from a liquid to a gas, the structure of the water is unaltered. The bubbles you see are gaseous water (steam) rising to the surface but they cool again and return to their liquid state before reaching the surface.

Maybe you are getting mixed up with hydrogen BONDS which are a form of electrical attraction between the oxygen and hydrogen atoms of the water molecules. These occur due to the difference in size between the hydrogen and oxygen, the electyrons spend comparatively longer orbiting the oxygen part making the oxygen slightly negative and the hydrogen slightly positive.

This has the effect of 'sticking' the water molecules together as a liquid. When you apply heat to them, the molecules start to vibrate, they are vibrating enough at 100C to break these hydrogen bonds, the molecules seperate and become a gas (steam).

You can't breath water because it would take a massive amount of energy to break the strong covalent bond between the hydrogen and the oxygen, more than you would gain by using the oxygen to process glucose into energy.

There is also a good mechanical reason, you are asking a pump that normally runs on a gas (your lungs) to pump a liquid. It just doesn't work, gas is compressable, liquid is much less so (if your bike engine draws water in it fluid-locks and bends the crank).

Assuming you weren't going to be scalded by the heat, you could breath pure steam in and out, I doubt you would get any oxygen out of it so you would asphyxiate. As you would if you breathed pure hydrogen.

EDIT: I may be getting hydrogen bonds and van-der Walls forces mixed up but the mechanism I described is correct. It is some time since I did molecular chemistry and water has some peculiar properties as it is.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

The Old Geeza
Back in my day...



Joined: 25 May 2005
Karma :
PostPosted: 19:32 - 26 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Not really. When you boil water it does not split into hydrogen and oxygen


Never said that, did I ?

stinkwheel wrote:
...it is changing state from a liquid to a gas, the structure of the water is unaltered.


I hope that was what I was talking about Confused

stinkwheel wrote:
The bubbles you see are gaseous water (steam) rising to the surface but they cool again and return to their liquid state before reaching the surface.


No, gaseous water is not steam. Steam is what you see as the gaseous water starts to cool. Gaseous water in it's true form is invisible. I thought that was the basics of what I mentioned. Just because you have elaborated on the subject doesn't change the content I wrote about Confused

stinkwheel wrote:
Maybe you are getting mixed up with hydrogen BONDS which are...


No, I'm not getting mixed up with anything - I hope. I already explained the difference between hydrogen and oxygen concentrates within water in the very first lines of my post.

Now I'm really confused Embarassed


____________________
Horse Power was safer when the Horses had it!
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Karma :
PostPosted: 19:47 - 26 Feb 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
However, once the water is hot enough, the oxygen has sufficient energy (volume) to overcome (separate from) the hydrogen and bubbles start to appear on the top of the water.


You said that, which gave me the impression you thought the hydrogen and oxygen were splitting in the boiling water. At no point does the hydrogen seperate from the oxygen. They are tightly bound and it takes a fair whack of electrical current to split them.

Or were you talking about the oxygen (and chlorine in mains water) that is dissolved in the water being released as you heat it?
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts
Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 19 years, 348 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
  Display posts from previous:   
This page may contain affiliate links, which means we may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. By clicking on an affiliate link, you accept that third-party cookies will be set.

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Bike Chat Forums Index -> Random Banter All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
 You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum

Read the Terms of Use! - Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
 
Debug Mode: ON - Server: birks (www) - Page Generation Time: 0.08 Sec - Server Load: 1.18 - MySQL Queries: 16 - Page Size: 73.42 Kb