What to do with a helmet in a crash?

[VTR SP1]

Following Andys crash and some recent first aid training I thought I would ask you all what you would do if you, a mate or someone you don't know was in a bike crash.

All of the training in this country has told me not to take the helmet off incase of spinal injury as you could make it worse. I was on a course in Germany last year and before we could start we had to do some first aid which involved taking off a helmet.
They insisted that if you came accross an accident regardless of the victim being conscious or not the helmet was to be removed.
The reasons being that it is easier to monitor the patients breathing, easier to maintain an airway and check if it clear, easier to put them into the recovery position if need be and if they do stop breathing then you can commence CPR straight away.
If you stop breathing your fucked so I would not care about neck injury and I don't think you would be criticised for doing so.

Taking off the helmet involves one person kneeling behind and supporting the neck while someone else removes the strap, tips the chin back and then roles it off pivoting around the chin and rolling it forward. As the lid comes off the other person moves their hands back and supports the head. Try not to twist the head and neck.

SP1
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I rode the Nurburgring backwards.

[.....]

I think this is stepping on dangerous ground. Doing this without proper training would be very unwise.

Only do it if the accident victim has stopped breathing and will die if you don't take it off and give them mouth-to-mouth.

[White Noise]

[VTR SP1]

[Teaman]

i dont think it should be part of a cbt,
If flip helmets were better (like the kbc ones) Id rather have them,, just in case,
but as it is there mainly heavy and ugly
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[stinkwheel]

You also need to tilt the head right back to give mouth to mouth in order to open the airway or the tongue will just get in the way.

There is an old fashioned device called a brooke airway that would do the job. My mum keeps one in her car after a colleague contracted hepatitis B from giving someone CPR at the road side (saved their life).
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[VTR SP1]

[Tarmacsurfer]

I'm a first aider, albeit lapsed. No way in hell would I consider removing a lid unless it was absolutely necessary. The interface of the spine and skull will likely have been seriously traumatised (can happen in even a minor spill, Christopher Reeve, anyone?) let alone any further damage to the spine itself. Breathing is fairly easily visible, particularly if laboured. Getting a pulse is not too hard at all, if the wrists aren't at all available then the throat is easily seen/reached in most cases (although I personally will always go for the wrist where possible, too easy to disturb other things when trying to manhandle clothing around the neck).
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I'm immortal. Well, so far.

[Jack_Cheese]

[landy.s11a]

Not too sure if it has been updated but as a marshall on the TT we were trained to remove the helmet to monitor breathing and/or administer mouth to mouth or ensure the tongue is not in a position to be swallowed.

I havent marshalled for a couple of years so not sure if it is still in practise.
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[White Noise]

[Reevo8]

Haha, mine ovalled and came off, preventing others the need to remove it!
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05 ZX10R, (**05 WKR)

[NSR-Rulez]

I wouldn't ever even if i was a first aider, leave it to the professionals, think what the consequences would be if the person who's helmet was removed died (worst case) or got paralysed as a result of the helmet being removed.


NSR-Rulez
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Past: 1985 Suzuki GS 125 + 2002 Honda NSR 125 R-2 + Ford Fusion
Present: Honda CBR 600 RR-5 + Suzuki SV650S-K4 + Mitsubishi FTO GPX

[Mister James]

Although a qualified First Aider, I'm still unsure on the exact procedures regarding helmets. I did ask on my last refresher course, but the paramedics wouldn't be drawn on the matter, as our riot helmets at work have flip-down face-shields, allowing access to the face.

The most I could get out of them was that the basic intention of First Aid is to stablise and avoid further damage to the casualty. As a result, if you can maintain their condition without resorting to fiddling with things, then all well and good.

However, if you feel that the only way you can keep them alive is by removing the helmet and commencing CPR, then so be it. As long as you feel you can justify yourself, go ahead. Like use of force, it can be a potential minefield, as if you don't take an action that you could reasonably have been expected to, they could consider charges against you.
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[DEN MONKEY]

Did my first aid training a few months ago for work and this thread prompted me to grab the book out and have a quick look.

Says only to remove the lid if the injured person is either unconcious or vomitting.

I guess the unconcious thing lends to being able to check their vitals etc. They suggest doing this while the person is in the recovery position. With a second person supporting the neck and head.
Obviously if they are concious and responsive then they have no immediate issues that require its removal.

The one thing that sticks in my mind that our instructor said is "even if you do just a little then you're still doing something" and that is why if I was in doubt of the persons breathing etc and suspected issues then I would do it in a heart beat.

I was the first on a nasty vehicle accident once and had to make a decision to pull the old guy out of the car since smoke was pissing out from under the bonnet.
Turns out the battery just exploded and the acid was causing the smoke.
The ambulance guys gave me a hard time over it too.
I personally thought the car was going to go up, as did the guy who helped me and there was no way in hell I was leaving the guy in there.
I'd do the same again if there was any doubt in my mind for the persons immediate saftey.
Immediate future surely has to outway the distant future or well being. Since without it the other simply does not exist.

It is a pity though that it can come back and bite you in the arse just for doing your best to help someone. Shame that.

For future reference if anyone here spots me on the side of the road. Do what ya feel is right and I'll be greatful what ever the outcome.

And no that doesnt mean going through my wallet either
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meh

[FreshAL]

You can support the airway with the helmet still on.

If the casualty is unconcious, but breathing and you are concerned about their tongue blocking their airway ( you can hear a 'slurping' sound as they breathe) you can improve their airway with a modified JAW THRUST

A standard jaw thrust looks like this
https://www.starmed.co.il/Images/Content/FirstAid/19.jpg

The helmet makes this tricker, but it's still possible. Push the lower jaw forward by using a finger on each side behind the jaw. It's best to have someone support the helmet whist you do this.


I'm not a doctor, only a first aider, and this is what I was taught on one of my courses.

[nrml76]

It takes a minimum of two people who know exactly what they are doing, and a co-operative patient to get a helmet off safely.

If the victim is talking, dont do anything. Just keep talking to him / her.

Never attempt to put patients with suspected spinal injury (read trauma) in the recovery position, unless they have a mouth full of vomit or blood which they cant spit out.

If the victim is unconscious check wether he / she is breathing, by observing the chest movement, and feeling their breath on your fingers (by opening the visor, without moving the head). If the victim is breathing, and not blue in colour, dont do anything apart from checking the pulse, and applying direct pressure to stop major bleeding.

If the victim is definitely not breathing, and is turing blue, then the risk of them dying before help arrives is greater than the risk of aggravating spinal injury. In such a situation, it would be acceptable to remove the helmet and provide breathing support.

The risk of being sued by the victim is not great, as most countries have a 'good samaritan act', which provides immunity to people providing first aid. in fact, in some countries (france), you can be prosecuted for not stopping and helping.

Removing a helmet safely, requires at least two pairs of hands. It is not an easy technique to carryout, unless you have regular practice. Seeing a demo does not enable you to do it slickly, eventhough it looks easy. Besides, once the helmet is off, the neck needs to be immobilised immediately; which requires special equipment.

Certain types of pelvic fractures, long bone fractures and injuries to the spleen can bleed massively if displaced. It is best to move victims as little as possible.

[colin1]

I wouldnt remove a helmet unless i thought the rider had stopped breathing.

Im not quite sure what the best way to tell this would be as if someone is breathing shallow breaths softly, I might think they werent breathing.

Even if I did think they had stopped breathing, I would only remove the helmet if I had decided that I was gonna try mouth to mouth resucitation even though Ive had no training and just have a vague idea how to do it.

I would open the visor though as that might make it a bit easier to breathe.

its been interesting to read about moving the head to open the airway, and clearing out vomit or blood though, so i might try that

i wdnt be too keen moving the head to open the airway though as you are moving the neck which could be damaged
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[Born2bVile]

See this thread
https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=30821&highlight=first+aid+motorcyclists

Cheers,

Byrnie.
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[Itchy]

going off on a small tangent but do these things?

https://www.hatsoff.info/

work? , they are supposed to be a balloon put into the top lining of your helmet which paramedics inflate so the helmet is forced off via pressure on the top of the skull rather than the neck when yanking your helmet off normally

£35 though , an essential piece of safety gear (like armour back protectors etc) ? , or something that might not work?[/code]

[beast rider]

All i know on this is that the paramedics that turned up after my accident went mental when they saw me sitting up with my lid off , sucking on a smoke.

It was only when i told them that i had taken all my gear off that they calmed down!

So im guessing that you ain't supposed to take the lid off.

[Whitey]

[BorderHooner]

if your arm gets ripped off, or if you have a lump fo anti tank shrapnel in your thigh, have been shot thru the chest with a 7.62mm or any such serious event then airway, breathing and circulation is still the way to go. No point cloggin up a gaping artery if the casualty isnt breathing or has no pulse.

so the point is?

yes the helmet could & would come off but only if absolutely totally necessary.
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[Jaz]

Just did my First Aid refresher and asked the same question.

As he put it, the only way you would do something like this is if you had been trained to do it or in a last ditch attempt to maintain life.

If you did it for any other reason, because you had seen it on Casualty, without training and it went wrong then it's your ass if they decide to take you to court.

Basically as a first aider (or not ?) you should only do what you are trained to do. Anthing else when not in extreme conditions will get you in deep trouble unless you can prove otherwise.

[syl]

We've been over this ground before. See:

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=74478
https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=74545
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