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Gazz
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Joined: 19 May 2009
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PostPosted: 21:31 - 30 Jul 2015    Post subject: Top Box Advice Reply with quote
I've been given some gift vouchers for J and S which are about to run out of date soon, so have been looking at getting a top box. But don't know much about them?

I have a couple of bikes so I would like to take the box and mount it onto various bikes easily enough without too much hassle.

Will I need different mounting brackets for each bike?

How big would I need in volume to carry 2 full face (or flip) lids?

Can you get them with the spongy bit for pillions to lean against, or do you need to fit that separately? The other half reckons that a top box would make her feel more safe when riding pillion and the would like a bit of cushioning to make it more comfortable.

Any benefits from buying a decent make?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 21:40 - 30 Jul 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
There are two main types monolock and monokey.

They have specific plates

https://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t167/piccyhogger/MonoKey-MonoLock-case-bottom.gif

Kappa also fit givi monokey.

You fit these to arms which for on specific bikes.

For instance alloy CBR600 (1999 X to 2006)

https://www.brandedbiker.co.uk/Givi-Luggage/Givi-252F-Monorack-Arms-Honda-CBR600-1999-to-2009-7178?gclid=CIXYhe7ag8cCFaPnwgodxWMGDw

Steelie CBR600 (1997-1998)

https://www.brandedbiker.co.uk/Givi-Luggage/Givi-249F-Monorack-Arms-Honda-CBR600-1997-and-1998-7177?gclid=CNS05u_ag8cCFaISwwodRAcCsw

Quote:
Can you get them with the spongy bit for pillions to lean against, or do you need to fit that separately? The other half reckons that a top box would make her feel more safe when riding pillion and the would like a bit of cushioning to make it more comfortable.


The backrest is almost always an optional extra but loads on ebay have them fitted. Plus you can't really lean lean on them as the brackets which hold them on (for link 2) are only 2 bits of 3mm steel and two 4mm bolts through a fairing holder.

Hell GIVI always state no more than 3 kilos in a top box anyway. A person leaning back is going to put a whole load more force than 3kilos... granted on my NTV and the givi arms I'd put stacks of stuff in them.


Quote:

How big would I need in volume to carry 2 full face (or flip) lids?


48 or 52 litre boxes.
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 21:45 - 30 Jul 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Most are overpriced bollocks, there is no advantage of known brands, their mounting systems are rubbish and only rated 3kg...
The best ones are about 25 quid on ebay (marketed as 45-52-65 liters, all same size), in my opinion, and I've had a few (a Honda branded box, givi, and two cheapies).

The recessed handle area on most, especially branded ones, does seriously impede the storage space and is quite annoying.

Most are easily removed (single bolt locks it on) but I would recommend bolting through the box and having a removable rack, it will be much more secure.


Yes you can buy the spongy bit, but for a branded bx it will cost more than a whole cheap box. Instead buy a thick wedge of neoprene foam from ebay.


The givi arms linked above are also shite. A rentec rack is better Thumbs Up

Last edited by kramdra on 21:48 - 30 Jul 2015; edited 2 times in total
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bamt
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PostPosted: 21:46 - 30 Jul 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's worth pointing out that monolock is the heavier duty version - monokey tends to be smaller/flimsier (all relative - still OK) and not rated to quite as heavy loads or speeds. I've got both, and prefer monolock.

I wouldn't worry too much about the cushion either - I offered one to Mrs Bamt, she pointed out that with her spine-armour equipped jacket she couldn't feel the hinge on the box anyway (and rarely if ever leans back onto it). Having the box there does give pillions the confidence that they aren't going to fall off the back, however unlikely that is in practice.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 22:01 - 30 Jul 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
kramdra wrote:
The givi arms linked above are also shite. A rentec rack is better Thumbs Up


Until it snaps your subframe. Thumbs Up
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MCN
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PostPosted: 23:23 - 30 Jul 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
I mounted a Givi system on an 09 ER6F.
Bastart of a job as the bike has almost to be disembowelled to fit the mounting 'arms' to the frame.
A lot of the holes are awkward to line up and just a bit poor as far a 'Kits' go.

Instructions good not so. Clear not very photographs/drawings.

I guess if you fit them all the time then you get better and know the pitfalls but not an Easy Job unless you have time and patience.

I hoofed my tool box up the end of the garage twice. Mad
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:50 - 31 Jul 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
F800/700/650GS has mounts for a top box built right into it. You re-purpose the two rear bolts of the grab handles and remove a couple of plastic bungs to reveal the other two. Solid as a rock, weight is straight down onto the subframe rather than perched behind it on a lever. I've had 10kg+ of anchor chain in there, bags of cat litter, beer runs, all sorts, never a hint of a problem.

This isn't meant to be helpful, I'm just bragging. Razz
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MCN
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PostPosted: 09:03 - 31 Jul 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
F800/700/650GS has mounts for a top box built right into it.
I've had 10kg+ of anchor chain in there, bags of cat litter, beer runs, all sorts, never a hint of a problem.

This isn't meant to be helpful, I'm just bragging. Razz


Is that for the floods?
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Mudshark
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PostPosted: 10:03 - 31 Jul 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Hell GIVI always state no more than 3 kilos in a top box anyway.


Question

GIVI wrote:
B33NMK
33 ltr. Monokey® topcase (black)
MaxLoad 10KG


admittedly mine has bike specific fixing plates, and a backrest, and quite happy for the OH to be leaning back on it, it's as solid as a very solid thing that's solid
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GaryJM
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PostPosted: 10:13 - 31 Jul 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:

This isn't meant to be helpful, I'm just bragging. Razz

I'll beat that mine has 12V line built in and also moves from side to side on its carrier.
Like you had all sorts in it, just not anchor chain.
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Gazz
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PostPosted: 17:51 - 31 Jul 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just been onto the J and S website and they only seem to have 3 available.

https://www.jsaccessories.co.uk/luggage/top-boxes

Do you think the Dr. Bike one would be the best option to go for then? It is the 44litre one.

It will probably end up on my Honda Deauville first off.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:15 - 31 Jul 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
You might get 2 lids in that, if they're small shelled and there's nothing else in it. I went to 58 litres and it just barely fits a flip and a full face.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 21:25 - 31 Jul 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
That, is the ebay special that I recommended above

Cheapest uk seller I could find in 1 minute looking.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/371375174665

Ive bought and fitted a couple for other people, Im reasonably certain they are all the same size, but listed 40-60L.

The exception is this one, with a slightly different design.. might.. or might not be bigger, the difference might be just the ridges in the lid Laughing

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281730911778

sickpup wrote:
Until it snaps your subframe. Thumbs Up


Subframe rated 180kg and there is no significant difference in loading or leverage. 4x M8 bolts will hold a subframe and contents, so another 4x M8 bolts will have no issue securing 15-20kg of rack, box and contents on the end.

However, I am extremely sceptical of the long term durability of the plastic clips to which most boxes attach to the plate as standard.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:46 - 01 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
kramdra wrote:
However, I am extremely sceptical of the long term durability of the plastic clips to which most boxes attach to the plate as standard.

The big locating lip snapped off the small 1-lid box on my Enfield. I drilled and bolted through another two holes into the base plate, small drama.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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Dave_R
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PostPosted: 10:17 - 01 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
MCN wrote:
I mounted a Givi system on an 09 ER6F.
Bastart of a job as the bike has almost to be disembowelled to fit the mounting 'arms' to the frame.
A lot of the holes are awkward to line up and just a bit poor as far a 'Kits' go.

Instructions good not so. Clear not very photographs/drawings.

I guess if you fit them all the time then you get better and know the pitfalls but not an Easy Job unless you have time and patience.

I hoofed my tool box up the end of the garage twice. Mad


I had no trouble fitting Givi arms on my 09 ER6n which has the same rear end. I don't know what you did that I didn't, because I wouldn't call a bike with the grab rails and the rear seat removed "disembowelled".

For future reference; use a bit of mechanical sense and keep in mind this is an aftermarket part that's hand made in Italy. The bolt holes will be very difficult to align if you tighten the bolts too soon, leave everything loose and floppy until everything, including the plate has been attached.

On a related note, I've been very happy with my Givi V47 monokey box; it just about fits two lids, it's rated to 10kg and I've been loading 16kg in it daily for a few months.
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Snod Blatter
Crazy Courier



Joined: 21 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: 10:28 - 01 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
The big locating lip snapped off the small 1-lid box on my Enfield.


Mine did the same a few days after I started commuting by motorway, apparently 70MPH with a pair of work boots in it is asking too much. Makes it not fit for purpose in my eyes.

I then bought a small Krauser K1 top box off ebay from Riders Of Yeovil, it was much better made and far more secure but the top rattled about and made a terrible din. That lasted until a kind fellow knocked the lock inside while he was riding my motorcycle over waste ground at night and getting away with it. I'm not sure where to go next, it'll have to be yet another brand.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 13:29 - 01 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
kramdra wrote:
Subframe rated 180kg and there is no significant difference in loading or leverage. 4x M8 bolts will hold a subframe and contents, so another 4x M8 bolts will have no issue securing 15-20kg of rack, box and contents on the end.

However, I am extremely sceptical of the long term durability of the plastic clips to which most boxes attach to the plate as standard.


I hope you're not training to be an engineer.

Subframe may be rated at 180kg but it isn't rated as such at the extreme end of it.

Renntec's have a 4 bolt fitment where all the bolts are in close proximity at the end of the sub frame, normally where the grab handles fit. On a Givi rack the securing points are spread out spreading the load not just targeting it in one area.

As an aside the 3 kg load on a Givi rack isn't because that is all they can take it is because anything more could potentially adversely affect the handling.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 13:31 - 01 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
sickpup wrote:

As an aside the 3 kg load on a Givi rack isn't because that is all they can take it is because anything more could potentially adversely affect the handling.


C'mon aren't you going to tell us the story about carrying gold bullion in your top box?
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 00:12 - 02 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
sickpup wrote:
...


No, Givi arms use the pillion peg mount as a pivot but all of the load is through the 4x M8 grab handle mounts. However the givi arms are also weak as piss, bend easily and cost 2x more than a replacement used subframe. Replacement arms are not easy to find.

"potentially adversely affect the handling" = wheelies. My bike prefers the extra weight of pillion and full box when riding faster. Acceleration is adversely affected, but rear is less twitchy, front more planted.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 09:01 - 02 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
kramdra wrote:
No, Givi arms use the pillion peg mount as a pivot but all of the load is through the 4x M8 grab handle mounts.


No. The weight may not be spread evenly or even in the same plane but it is spread.

kramdra wrote:
However the givi arms are also weak as piss, bend easily


No they don't unless they are old and have internal corrosion. Regardless they are supposed to be weaker than the subframe to act as a sacrificial part.

kramdra wrote:
and cost 2x more than a replacement used subframe.


Two assumptions.

1. That the subframe can be replaced ie is bolt on.
2. Assumes you can find a used one.

kramdra wrote:
Replacement arms are not easy to find.


Yes they are. Try either Ebay or messaging Givi direct has always worked for me, surprisingly cheap as well Givi contact page.

kramdra wrote:
"potentially adversely affect the handling" = wheelies. My bike prefers the extra weight of pillion and full box when riding faster. Acceleration is adversely affected, but rear is less twitchy, front more planted.


No, potentially adversely affect the handling by raising the centre of gravity and placing mass behind the rear wheel axle as well as placing a box in the air stream creating odd air vortices and turbulence around the box.

The front isn't more planted, you have changed the front/rear mass ditribution towards the rear unless you compensate by leaning forward.

Don't quit the day job. Thumbs Up
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MCN
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PostPosted: 12:50 - 02 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Dave_R wrote:

For future reference; use a bit of mechanical sense and keep in mind this is an aftermarket part that's hand made in Italy. The bolt holes will be very difficult to align if you tighten the bolts too soon, leave everything loose and floppy until everything, including the plate has been attached.


Are you telling me how to suck eggs? Very Happy

I put all the bolts in but not in an Italian accent maybe.
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Dave_R
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PostPosted: 14:33 - 02 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
MCN wrote:
Are you telling me how to suck eggs? Very Happy


Asks the guy who disembowelled a bike to fit a top box rack Twisted Evil

Though as condescending as I am, that was mostly for the benefit of others who land here having searched "givi arms don't fit". srsly
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 17:05 - 02 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
sickpup wrote:
kramdra wrote:
No, Givi arms use the pillion peg mount as a pivot but all of the load is through the 4x M8 grab handle mounts.

No. The weight may not be spread evenly or even in the same plane but it is spread.


The givi arms convert the small lever force to a downwards force acting on the same place. Its irrelevant, even with a large multiplier the load is still within ratings.

sickpup wrote:
kramdra wrote:
and cost 2x more than a replacement used subframe.

Two assumptions.
1. That the subframe can be replaced ie is bolt on.
2. Assumes you can find a used one.


This does depend on the bike.. most bikes worth owning have a replaceable steel or aluminium tube subframe, which are very strong. Steel frame bikes they are welded on.

As subframes rarely ever break therefore there are a lot of them available and cheap. Hit a tree sideways or rear ended by car, that will break one. Topbox will not.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271809048620
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_&_nkw=cbr600+subframe&_sacat=0

Alu Diecast subframes on more recent bikes are cheap to make, but much more likely to crack, lower ratings.

sickpup wrote:
kramdra wrote:
Replacement arms are not easy to find.

Yes they are. Try either Ebay or messaging Givi direct has always worked for me, surprisingly cheap as well Givi contact page.


Years ago there were none available when I was looking, it was considered a discontinued part. Yes they are now available if paying 90 quid, which is twice what I paid last time.. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191623654268

sickpup wrote:
kramdra wrote:
"potentially adversely affect the handling" = wheelies. My bike prefers the extra weight of pillion and full box when riding faster. Acceleration is adversely affected, but rear is less twitchy, front more planted.

No, potentially adversely affect the handling by raising the centre of gravity and placing mass behind the rear wheel axle as well as placing a box in the air stream creating odd air vortices and turbulence around the box.
The front isn't more planted, you have changed the front/rear mass ditribution towards the rear unless you compensate by leaning forward.
Don't quit the day job. Thumbs Up


Under braking and leaning in, the front has much more confidence with weight on the back.
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