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RAF are useless.

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kawakid
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Joined: 15 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: 16:59 - 22 Sep 2006    Post subject: RAF are useless. Reply with quote
Pretty bad comments from such a senior soldier.

Makes you wonder, what the RAF are good for, if they can't support the infantry. Comments like we call in the americans because they offer better support, doesn't sound good to me.

Soldiers crying, because they've been abandoned by the flight boys.

They might be good for shooting down the odd mig, but what abount engaging ground targets.

Probably another daming account of our armed forces, being pushed to the limit.

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5371392.stm
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Mister James
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Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 18:24 - 22 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
The article doesn't say or appear to imply that the tears were anything but sorrow at the loss of comrades.

Plenty of other articles I have read have praised RAF contributions, including their close-in air support role, so this is less of a sensation than the BBC seem to want to make out.

I've no doubt that the RAF have made mistakes, as have the Army, but I don't think that you can damn a whole branch of the services (even the fookin' Crabs) on the basis of one selectively quoted email by a notoriously shifty news service.
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king kong
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Joined: 05 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: 19:04 - 22 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Harrier pilots are only as good as the Forward Air Controllers(FACs'). These are the guys on the ground who call in and direct airstrikes on possible targets, identified either by laser designation or smoke flare.
Also consider the fact that the Harriers time on target is limited to avoid surface to air contact, they're high up and travelling at 600 mph.

Consider also ordenance that the Harriers may have at their disposal at the time of request for air support, 25mm Aden canon, LGBs' etc. Did these incidents highlighted occur at night or day. The Harrier GR7, GR7A are equipped with FLIR (forward Looking Infra Red), but the images are no better than greyscale.

I would'nt be too hasty in knocking the RAF until the facts are known.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 19:53 - 22 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Is a Harrier really the best choice of aircraft for ground support against "infantry", or just chosen because they are available and can travel rapidly to where required (rather than using greater numbers of local and more suitable aircraft).

All the best

Keith
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carvell
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Joined: 05 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: 19:56 - 22 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
king kong wrote:
The Harrier pilots are only as good as the Forward Air Controllers(FACs'). These are the guys on the ground who call in and direct airstrikes on possible targets, identified either by laser designation or smoke flare.
Also consider the fact that the Harriers time on target is limited to avoid surface to air contact, they're high up and travelling at 600 mph.

Consider also ordenance that the Harriers may have at their disposal at the time of request for air support, 25mm Aden canon, LGBs' etc. Did these incidents highlighted occur at night or day. The Harrier GR7, GR7A are equipped with FLIR (forward Looking Infra Red), but the images are no better than greyscale.

I would'nt be too hasty in knocking the RAF until the facts are known.

Noone here is knocking the RAF.

A British Major is knocking the RAF, who presumably knows more facts than you or I.

Saying that they're only as good as the forward controllers is flawed too. If the forward controller calls in a target but the RAF don't make it to the target then that's not the RAF being "only as good as the forward controllers". That's the RAF not being any good.
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Mister James
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Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 20:16 - 22 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Is a Harrier really the best choice of aircraft for ground support against "infantry", or just chosen because they are available and can travel rapidly to where required (rather than using greater numbers of local and more suitable aircraft).

All the best

Keith


Longbows would be far more use, they are specifically designed to engage ground targets in a CAS role, whereas the Harrier's use is negated by its vulnerability if operated at low speeds.

Some good ol' Hind D's would do the trick, it was about the only thing the Russians had that scared the Mujihadeen back in the day. I'm sure we could buy some cheaply off a tin-pot ex-Sovbloc state and retrofit them for pennies.

Quote:

Consider also ordenance that the Harriers may have at their disposal at the time of request for air support, 25mm Aden canon, LGBs' etc. Did these incidents highlighted occur at night or day. The Harrier GR7, GR7A are equipped with FLIR (forward Looking Infra Red), but the images are no better than greyscale.


The article specifically mentions 25mil strafing runs and CR7's - both specifically carried for CAS, so there is no real excuse to be found there.
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king kong
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Joined: 05 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: 20:19 - 22 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Is a Harrier really the best choice of aircraft for ground support against "infantry", or just chosen because they are available and can travel rapidly to where required (rather than using greater numbers of local and more suitable aircraft).

All the best

Keith


Fraid so, the Harriers of 1 Squadron are based at Kandahar Airport which has limited runway for Tornado GR4. Both Harrier GR7 and GR4 serve the Ground Attack / Recon role.

The RAF is also stretched with heavy committments in the Gulf, coupled with the fact that the MOD has decided to scrap the Sea Harrier and Jaguar GR4s' from service, the later making way for the long overdue Eurofighter Typhoon.

The Americans launch airstrikes from aircraft carriers, notably the F18 Hornet, in either case air to air refuelling is required.

Friendly Fire is inevitable in the theatre of war.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 20:28 - 22 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
king kong wrote:
Fraid so, the Harriers of 1 Squadron are based at Kandahar Airport which has limited runway for Tornado GR4. Both Harrier GR7 and GR4 serve the Ground Attack / Recon role.


Point being using helicopters might be better, but rather slower to get from a central point to provide immediate support.

All the best

Keith
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zaknafien




Joined: 25 Mar 2002
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PostPosted: 22:03 - 22 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's about time we started backing up our troops with the money they require for the equipment to do the job properly. Just look at the pitiful increase in spending scheduled compared to the increase in need.

https://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/Organisation/KeyFactsAboutDefence/DefenceSpending.htm
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Mister James
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Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 22:17 - 22 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
For some time now, we have been operating our forces on a shoe-string budget that barely sufficed in peacetime. I don't think most people realise quite how shagged-out they are, nor how horrific the conditions they work under.
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Rovman
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Joined: 09 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: 05:13 - 23 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:

Longbows would be far more use, they are specifically designed to engage ground targets in a CAS role, whereas the Harrier's use is negated by its vulnerability if operated at low speeds.


Yeah, but the RAF can't do anything about that can they, since it's the Army that operate the Apache's.
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WildGoose
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Joined: 20 Mar 2002
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PostPosted: 12:32 - 23 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
The Harrier pilots are only as good as the Forward Air Controllers(FACs').


they can designate their own targets just as easily as they can pick up a designation from a FAC, that is to say if they are even using laser guided weapons

Quote:
25mm Aden canon,


was never fitted operationally to any harrier GR7 due to the composite construction of the GR7 over the alloy of the sea harrier, tests have shown that the canon (a design from the first half of the century) puts far too much strain on the airframe and basically rips it to pieces in the air

Quote:
Also consider the fact that the Harriers time on target is limited to avoid surface to air contact, they're high up and travelling at 600 mph.


they will be very very low to increase the effectiveness of the show of force, its been shown that often a low and loud flyby is enough to give the opposing force a kick up the backside and fuck him off

furthermore, you cant fire CRV-7 rockets effectively from altitude

regarding the best aircraft for the job, the harrier is all we have that can operate from dumps like kandahar and actually get to the target quick enough, doesnt mean it will be particularly good...as its probably the most susceptible aircraft in the fleet to foreign object damage causing great amounts of unserviceability, FOD is rife in places like iraq and afghanistan


pisses me off every ignorant fool will start bad mouthing the services because of one dodgy news bulletin from the bbc suddenly makes them an expert

there is no money, the harriers are dated and falling apart, there are no spares, no tools. aircraft are being cannibalised just to keep others in the air, serviceability as the airframes age is dropping to somewhere in the region of 50-60 hours on the ground for every 1 flying, and morale is rock bottom

and yet the government just continue taking more money out, whilst demanding longer tours of duty, excessive sorties, longer hours for pilots and groundcrew, and then one major gets the hump because the close air support wasnt quite close enough

by all means call in the americans, they have the money and equipment to sort you out Thumbs Up
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king kong
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Joined: 05 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: 15:03 - 23 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wildgoose I stand corrected about the Aden canon. Thumbs Up

The Harrier uses a variety of weapons such as laser and GPS-guided bombs against buildings (Paveway), infra-red missiles against tanks (Maverick), cluster munitions and general-purpose bombs. When required, the Harrier can also be fitted with a pod fitted with cameras to provide reconnaissance of the target and battle areas.
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Mister James
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Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 22:11 - 23 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
King Kong - Goose used to be a spanner monkey on them Wink
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king kong
Nearly there...



Joined: 05 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: 21:05 - 24 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:
King Kong - Goose used to be a spanner monkey on them Wink


I'll get me coat Crying or Very sad
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shaun_04
Brolly Dolly



Joined: 06 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: 19:33 - 26 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
it always amuses me how us males just love to show off about their plane knowledge.
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plugger147
World Chat Champion



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: 21:23 - 26 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
One of the guys who works with me is ex raf and if he's anything to go by useless would be a mojor compliment. Laughing
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killa
Won't Shut Up



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: 09:23 - 27 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Certainly that A-10 is something you wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of.
I'm not to up on the technicalities but helicopters surely are the better choice, especially in a small group. Confused

lol at Mr James, the Hind would scare the towel heads away even before it let off a round. Laughing
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bazza
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Joined: 27 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 13:09 - 27 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:
Some good ol' Hind D's would do the trick, it was about the only thing the Russians had that scared the Mujihadeen back in the day. I'm sure we could buy some cheaply off a tin-pot ex-Sovbloc state and retrofit them for pennies.


Assuming some toothless old mujahadeen gimmer didn't tell the n00bs about how in the good old days, they would tie signal wire to distress flares and fire them up through the Hind's rotor blades so that the rotors would jam up and the whole thing drops out of the sky...
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Mister James
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Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 21:47 - 27 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hopefully most of those canny fellows kicked the bucket in the resulting civil wars.......leave my cunning plan alone!
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colin1
Captain Safety



Joined: 17 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: 01:43 - 28 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
i sometime wonder if soldiers going around in landrovers wish they were in a humvee

a bit better protection i would have thought

america is always gonna have all the best toys
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Last edited by colin1 on 02:37 - 29 Sep 2006; edited 1 time in total
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 10:16 - 28 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Humvees are better protected than the Snatch LR's, but we are getting some other american kit which is even better.

https://www.forceprotectioninc.com/models/cougar/

Take a butchers, they're quite cool looking, in an ugly sort of way. Supposed to provide protection against IEDs and RPGs.
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killa
Won't Shut Up



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: 10:33 - 28 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Holy shit James, that's a monster!

I want one now Crying or Very sad
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colin1
Captain Safety



Joined: 17 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: 02:31 - 29 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:
Humvees are better protected than the Snatch LR's, but we are getting some other american kit which is even better.

https://www.forceprotectioninc.com/models/cougar/

Take a butchers, they're quite cool looking, in an ugly sort of way. Supposed to provide protection against IEDs and RPGs.


remind me of the old saracens that were used in northern ireland.

there is a bloke near where i live who has one parked outside his house, not sure if it runs

https://www.hants.gov.uk/museum/aldershot/collections/images/saracen.jpg

killa, wanna buy one ?

https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Alvis-Saracen-MK6-Double-Armored_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ80765QQihZ002QQitemZ120036534616QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD2V

or this ?

https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/4-wheel-drive-truck_W0QQitemZ140034347512QQihZ004QQcategoryZ80765QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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killa
Won't Shut Up



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: 08:10 - 29 Sep 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
That red truck is awesome! Twisted Evil Thumbs Up
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