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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 11:55 - 08 Sep 2008    Post subject: Bikes and congestion charging Reply with quote
Hi

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2008/09/03/mnlottery103.xml

Note the line that It will also include seven different classes of vehicle from motorbikes, to cars to heavy goods vehicles..

Aeems we will be hit for it.

All the best

Keith
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LuckyDip23
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PostPosted: 12:09 - 08 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is completely disgusting - but i really cant see the government putting it into force.

For a start - which ever government puts this in WILL be voted out immediately - whereupon the one after will remove it seeing the trouble its caused.

If they really try and go through with this the country will grind to a halt as there will be mass protests everywhere - fuel protests & go slows etc will be nothing and i could seriously see london getting completely blockaded by truckers, driver untill its removed etc.

If you think the poll tax riots were big, then wait untill this comes in.

This government has to realise (and very soon) that it needs to stop taxing people to death because this countrys going to hit breaking point soon.

At least we'd all hope that sense prevails.
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muzzy
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PostPosted: 14:35 - 08 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Is it just london ?
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 14:49 - 08 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
muzzy wrote:
Is it just london ?


No, this the proposals / trial runs for the national road pricing scheme/s.

All the best

Keith
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ms51ves3
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PostPosted: 15:06 - 08 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Trials will be in 2010, if things go to plan I'll be in a different country by then.
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muzzy
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PostPosted: 15:14 - 08 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lucky you Smile
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 15:52 - 08 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
ms51ves3 wrote:
Trials will be in 2010, if things go to plan I'll be in a different country by then.


I think you are being a tad optimistic

Have a look at some of the online points calculators:

https://www.workpermit.com/australia/point_calculator.htm

https://www.visabureau.com/australia/immigration-points-test.aspx
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 16:19 - 08 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
404_NotFound wrote:
This is completely disgusting - but i really cant see the government putting it into force.

For a start - which ever government puts this in WILL be voted out immediately - whereupon the one after will remove it seeing the trouble its caused.
.


says who? Zanulabour have purposely made tax systems complicated and have purposely increased the public payroll (including quangos) , and purposely destroyed the traditional family unit.

These people are MUCH more dependent on the state...

Take for example tax credits,

The most sensible option is to increase personal allowances for each person who qualifies for tax credits, easy as pie cost = very little , except for a fall in tax revenue.


but no they decide to make it complicated so that people get taxed and have to beg for it back... this makes them more dependent on the state, the tax credit officers also are dependent on the state for their jobs, etc , thus they create ineffect a huge voting block that will ALWAYS vote labour , if they don't vote Labour they pretty much lose their jobs..

If Labour had managed a critical mass of 8-12 million people on the public payroll , Labour would be the government of the UK forever.


A similar system exists in Sweden where the socialists are entrenched and nothing bar nukes will get them out , as they each out socialist/bribe each other, thus no party can get in without bigger bribes, the government their got their critical mass.
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ms51ves3
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PostPosted: 18:13 - 08 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
ms51ves3 wrote:
Trials will be in 2010, if things go to plan I'll be in a different country by then.


I think you are being a tad optimistic

Have a look at some of the online points calculators:

https://www.workpermit.com/australia/point_calculator.htm

https://www.visabureau.com/australia/immigration-points-test.aspx


There's more than 1 country in the world Wink I might not go to Australia straight away but I will hopefully end up there.
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paulcdb
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PostPosted: 21:14 - 08 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Members of the public will be invited to join the pilots in June 2010. Such is the sensitivity of the trials that contractors will have to abide by the Official Secrets Act.


wonder how many people will sign up for it then? and secrets act?
seriously, anyone supporting this needs there head seen to. Every computer scheme the goverments come up with ends up massively overbudget, insecure and useless. Thats before even touching on privacy stuff...

Lets see how many people blindly support it until it's too late though Rolling Eyes
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 06:18 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
paulcdb wrote:
Quote:
Members of the public will be invited to join the pilots in June 2010. Such is the sensitivity of the trials that contractors will have to abide by the Official Secrets Act.


wonder how many people will sign up for it then? and secrets act?
seriously, anyone supporting this needs there head seen to. Every computer scheme the goverments come up with ends up massively overbudget, insecure and useless. Thats before even touching on privacy stuff...

Lets see how many people blindly support it until it's too late though Rolling Eyes


people signed up for the ID card trials willingly, people will sign up for this willingly...

They'll be bribed or bullied into it, ie the DVLA will pay big incentives and the billing will be virtual with people being short term greed motivated they'll probably take the £1000 'expenses' (tax free) and install it.

Huò Yuán Jiǎ, the hero of China in the early 1900s was poisoned by his chef for money, this was thought to have crushed nationalism in 1900s China and allowed other powers to move in.
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boredatwork
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PostPosted: 08:15 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:

Huò Yuán Jiǎ, the hero of China in the early 1900s was poisoned by his chef for money, this was thought to have crushed nationalism in 1900s China and allowed other powers to move in.


anyone know gordon's cook?

i think there is an inevitability about this - i can already see how this will be sold, cutting down on crime especially TERRORISM, saving the environment, more money for public transport

of course none of it will happen.

as for moving - unless you go somewhere pretty far behind us - it will only be a matter of time before other countries introduce it. it gives THEM to much power for them to resist...
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 10:20 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
boredatwork wrote:

as for moving - unless you go somewhere pretty far behind us - it will only be a matter of time before other countries introduce it. it gives THEM to much power for them to resist...


Depends, HK in 1989 had a terrible traffic problem , it still does, so they built the mid level escalators it went 400% over budget and was considered a failure,

These were built as a 800 metre long escalator up the mountain side covered to reduce the need for cars and taxis, you stand and watch it at 6am and it is packed for 4 hours with people going down to the central areas to work.
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Pernig
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PostPosted: 11:46 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
So they're going to retro-fit these satellite tracked 'boxes' to all the millions of vehicles already on the road? How is this economically viable? I think it would be cheaper to pave all the roads in the country with shellgrip, but that wouldn't benefit their coffers in the long run, would it?

Tax is cheap on bikes because they don't cause congestion and emissions and fuel consumption are relatively low. The physical footprint and weight of bike are much less than say a lorry or even a car, therefore wear and tear of the roads themselves is a lot lower than wear from other vehicles.

Sure, satellites will be able to track all the vehicles that have this system installed, so why not leave it in the back garden, they can't track us if we don't take it with us Laughing.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 12:02 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pernig wrote:
So they're going to retro-fit these satellite tracked 'boxes' to all the millions of vehicles already on the road? How is this economically viable?


It will probably just be a cost passed on to the driver. Want to use then road then you must fit a £x00 box.

Pernig wrote:
Tax is cheap on bikes because they don't cause congestion and emissions and fuel consumption are relatively low.


Same applies to cars. Flowing traffic the difference in road space used by a car compared to a bike is nominal (as most of that space is the "2 second rule").

Pernig wrote:
The physical footprint and weight of bike are much less than say a lorry or even a car, therefore wear and tear of the roads themselves is a lot lower than wear from other vehicles.


From memory the wear on the road is proportional to the axle weight of the vehicle to the power of 4. Hence why a bus does ~5000 times the damage to the road of a car.

Pernig wrote:
Sure, satellites will be able to track all the vehicles that have this system installed, so why not leave it in the back garden, they can't track us if we don't take it with us Laughing.


I expect that is one of the things being trialed. Expect the boxes will be "pinged" occasionally from the roadside and those that fail to respond correctly will result in the car being pulled (or they will just compare numberplates recorded by SPECS with the data from the tracking devices and check for discrepancies). And the driver probably hit with charges based on some OTT estimate of their mileage (ie, similar to how those caught with red diesel in their fuel tanks are treated).

All the best

Keith
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Pernig
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PostPosted: 12:27 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Same applies to cars. Flowing traffic the difference in road space used by a car compared to a bike is nominal (as most of that space is the "2 second rule").


On congested roads this kind of changes the balance though. When you're filtering not only are you cutting the queue yourself, you're not adding to the congestion by being there.

Kickstart wrote:
From memory the wear on the road is proportional to the axle weight of the vehicle to the power of 4. Hence why a bus does ~5000 times the damage to the road of a car.


A double decker bus can carry 90 people though, whereas a car can (but rarely does) take five.

Kickstart wrote:
I expect that is one of the things being trialed. Expect the boxes will be "pinged" occasionally from the roadside and those that fail to respond correctly will result in the car being pulled (or they will just compare numberplates recorded by SPECS with the data from the tracking devices and check for discrepancies). And the driver probably hit with charges based on some OTT estimate of their mileage (ie, similar to how those caught with red diesel in their fuel tanks are treated).


I never thought of it like that, plus if the satellites are tracking what roads the vehicles have been on they will be able to at least estimate the distance travelled. If mileage indicated on say the MOT doesn't match the miles actually recorded, someone will be asking you questions. Right am going to go out for a ride and enjoy it while i still can Razz.
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ncrn
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PostPosted: 12:33 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
But as with most electronic devices I'm sure you could mess around with them to make them look like they are functioning fine when in fact they are massively under reading or similar.

However I can't see a system such as this ever working properly, it'd be riddled with flaws and I just can't see it being chosen over taxation per car, an existing system that works.

Really they'd be better off removing road tax and adding slightly to fuel duty, I know fuel costs are high but at least that way high level road users will pay for high use, and low level users will pay for low use.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 12:38 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pernig wrote:
On congested roads this kind of changes the balance though. When you're filtering not only are you cutting the queue yourself, you're not adding to the congestion by being there.


It does to an extent, but you will still delay other traffic, certainly when you get to a T junction at which you need to turn left. With no junctions traffic flows well anyway.

Pernig wrote:
A double decker bus can carry 90 people though, whereas a car can (but rarely does) take five.


A double decker very rarely carries 90. The average for the UK is 9 people on a bus (12 in London). So nationally a bus carries about 6 times the number of passengers for 5000 times the damage of a car.

All the best

Keith
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ms51ves3
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PostPosted: 16:41 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Pernig wrote:
On congested roads this kind of changes the balance though. When you're filtering not only are you cutting the queue yourself, you're not adding to the congestion by being there.


It does to an extent, but you will still delay other traffic, certainly when you get to a T junction at which you need to turn left. With no junctions traffic flows well anyway.

Pernig wrote:
A double decker bus can carry 90 people though, whereas a car can (but rarely does) take five.


A double decker very rarely carries 90. The average for the UK is 9 people on a bus (12 in London). So nationally a bus carries about 6 times the number of passengers for 5000 times the damage of a car.

All the best

Keith


Why do the government not get rid of buses, give every household a 4 stroke moped and make the world a better place?
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muzzy
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PostPosted: 17:03 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pollution maybe Smile
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 17:14 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
ms51ves3 wrote:


Why do the government not get rid of buses, give every household a 4 stroke moped and make the world a better place?


The government could do plenty of things to make the world a better place ie:

If they bought a 50p (15p wholesale) tyre pressure guage & £2 foot pumps and sent one to every licence holder in the UK, the UK would consume probably 10% less petrol (my sister drives around on nearly flat tyres). because the government has massive buying power it could get huge discounts.

but they won't...

In that control is an important part of governments , mobile independent populations are harder to control...

The most extreme example is in Orwell's 1984 where people of the 3 states, erm Eurasia, Oceania & Eastasia, are never allowed to interact. Winston later goes on to conjecture that the citizens of each nation are not allowed to meet as they would probably find out they are no different from each other.

You see this in prejudices, ie French people are considered to be rude snooty and arrogant, but then people go touring there and the preconception is changed.


Labour is particularly bad at this rationing was continued post WWII till I think 1953 or 1954, to control and coerce the population into its bidding.
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iooi
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PostPosted: 18:33 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
ms51ves3 wrote:
Why do the government not get rid of buses, give every household a 4 stroke moped and make the world a better place?



Nooooo..... Twisted Evil


You really want this country to end up like the far east with city roads clogged up with 30mph 2 wheeled things.....
You would kiss good by to filtering then.

Now that really would kill off biking Shocked

Even if this 2010 trial, is hailed as workable, it certainly won't hit the mass market for another 10 years after that. Even then that is at best if all the IT work goes to plan.... And have you ever known a government backed IT project to come in on time and on budget... Laughing

Might work fine on a 1000, but to make it work with millions, is a different ball game altogether.

Quote:
If they bought a 50p (15p wholesale) tyre pressure guage & £2 foot pumps and sent one to every licence holder in the UK, the UK would consume probably 10% less petrol (my sister drives around on nearly flat tyres).


Even if they did would she use it to check the pressures and get them to the correct pressure. Rolling Eyes I bet not.....

Far better to give it to car makers and get them to fit self inflating tyres that are kept at the correct pressure. Thumbs Up
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Last edited by iooi on 18:36 - 09 Sep 2008; edited 1 time in total
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ms51ves3
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PostPosted: 18:36 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
iooi wrote:
ms51ves3 wrote:
Why do the government not get rid of buses, give every household a 4 stroke moped and make the world a better place?



Nooooo..... Twisted Evil


You really want this country to end up like the far east with city roads clogged up with 30mph 2 wheeled things.....
You would kiss good by to filtering then.

Now that really would kill off biking Shocked

Even if this 2010 trial, is hailed as workable, it certainly won't hit the mass market for another 10 years after that. Even then that is at best if all the IT work goes to plan.... And have you ever known a government backed IT project to come in on time and on budget... Laughing

Might work fine on a 1000, but to make it work with millions, is a different ball game altogether


I just want a free moped Laughing
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boredatwork
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PostPosted: 09:23 - 10 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:

Depends, HK in 1989 had a terrible traffic problem , it still does, so they built the mid level escalators it went 400% over budget and was considered a failure,

These were built as a 800 metre long escalator up the mountain side covered to reduce the need for cars and taxis, you stand and watch it at 6am and it is packed for 4 hours with people going down to the central areas to work.


i went on it when i was there- it was brilliant...but i am easily pleased...

maybe we should puit one in london - i quite fancy croydon to aldgate on an escalator...it cant be any worse than a tram
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 19:21 - 10 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Actual tender document:-

https://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/introtoroads/roadcongestion/roadpricingdemoproject/invitationtotender.pdf

Page 136 has notes about the scheme integrating with other European road charging schemes.

All the best

Keith
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