|
|
| Author |
Message |
| Blue_SV650S |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Blue_SV650S
World Chat Champion
Joined: 27 Nov 2008
Karma : 
|
 Posted: 09:46 - 24 Nov 2009  Post subject: Oil filters - a bit pricy - which do you use? |
 |
|
Did an oil change on my WR250F yesterday, I was shocked at the price of the filter ...
It was £6.99 for a PATTERN (Vesrah) filter ... now my KLR GENUINE Kawasaki filter was ~£3.50 ... he said to me that the genuine Yamaha one was ~£14 
The Yam filter looks no different than the Kawasaki filter BTW (obviously different dimensions, but same 'idea' - paper filter, fairly small) ...
Anyhoo, what filters do you buy - yamaha owners in particular.
I am going to look up how much a genuine one really is (I'll be well p1ssed if it is <=£6.99) ... there are lots of filters available on eBay as a box of (3 or 4) ... but I don't want something cheap and plops, but if it is cheap and good/ok, then I'd much rather that.
I have had Vesrah brake pads before and they were plops ... I hope their overpriced filters are better than their pads!! 
____________________
The purpose of life is to fight maturity. |
|
| Back to top |
  |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
 |
| Itchy |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Itchy
Super Spammer
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Karma : 
|
| Posted: 09:53 - 24 Nov 2009 Post subject: |
|
|
on me XT I took 3 of those paper type ones they cost me £1.75 each at Halfords,
Course the XT is ancient technology that predates the dinosaurs but thats part of its charm.
I have two spares but since the XT was taken they are now useless.
____________________
Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching. |
|
| Back to top |
 |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| supZ |
This post is not being displayed .
|
supZ
World Chat Champion
Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Karma : 
|
Posted: 10:13 - 24 Nov 2009  Post subject: |
|
|
when i first saw this thread i thought 'what the hell filters are less than a tenner what on earth can he be moaning about?!'
seems you're just a tight git! 
____________________
CBR954RR - Daily toy
CBR600RR - Trackbike |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Blue_SV650S |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Blue_SV650S
World Chat Champion
Joined: 27 Nov 2008
Karma :
|
| Posted: 10:28 - 24 Nov 2009 Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Kickstart |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Kickstart
The Oracle
Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Blue_SV650S |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Blue_SV650S
World Chat Champion
Joined: 27 Nov 2008
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| tatters |
This post is not being displayed .
|
tatters
Exxon Valdez
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Karma : 
|
| Posted: 11:54 - 24 Nov 2009 Post subject: |
|
|
There are companies that make re-useable/washable oil filters from stainless steel, would,nt trust one though as with both oil and air paper filters are superior.
____________________
Past:NRG50,AF1125(x2),NSR125RR,ZZR250,CX500,VFR400,KR1S,ZZR600(x2),CB400N,YZF1000(x2),KH125,Z200,FX400R,CBR954RR(x2)GPZ500S,GT550,VFR750F(x2),RD350N,XR650R,CBR600F,CB250,KDX250,YZF750R,CRM250,400EXC,KLR650,TTR600RE,DR350S,R100GSPD,RGV250,VMAX1200,DL650,KZ750 Present:G650XC,C12,CRF450X,1190ADV |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Blue_SV650S |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Blue_SV650S
World Chat Champion
Joined: 27 Nov 2008
Karma :
|
| Posted: 12:06 - 24 Nov 2009 Post subject: |
|
|
| tatters wrote: | There are companies that make re-useable/washable oil filters from stainless steel, would,nt trust one though as with both oil and air paper filters are superior. |
That was my initial thoughts too ... but there is a rather valid argument that may make you re-consider ...
and I quote (found via google on thumpertalk.com):-
"Paper and mesh filters take a fundamentally different approach to filtering. Mesh filters filter down to a certain size, and for practical purposes, no smaller than that. They do, however, only require a single pass to filter to that level. They work by simply having a very strictly controlled mesh size, through which a spherical object larger than that size cannot pass. They are rated in "absolute" terms, as with the Scotts (35μm "absolute"). This rating tells you that nothing larger than 35μm (35 microns) will pass through it. (1 micron, or micrometer more correctly, is 1/1,000,000 of a meter, or 0.001 mm, or 0.000039")
Mesh filters are able to achieve this level of filtration with remarkably low resistance to fluid flow, as well, which in the case of the Scotts means that the bypass valve will not open on cold starts, and there will be no appreciable pressure loss across the filter.
"Paper" filters are different. They can stop even finer debris than mesh filters, but they also allow some larger debris to pass. They filter somewhat the same way a thick shrub catches objects thrown into it. Most tennis balls get stuck, but not all. An occasional golf ball gets caught, but an occasional soccer ball passes through to balance that out.
The random arrangement and density of the fibers in the element create odd and irregular gaps through which debris can pass. This creates little crotches of sorts that enable the filter to catch extremely small debris, but also creates gaps that allow it to pass ridiculously large material at other times. The paper element media is also three dimensional to a degree, whereas mesh is essentially two dimensional; if something passes through one opening in the mesh, it's through, which isn't necessarily the case with fiber media.
Fiber, or paper, filters can stop debris as fine as 20 microns, or even less. But, they won't stop it all on the first pass. Worse yet, they won't stop all of the debris even as large as 90 microns or more on the first pass, and some particles occasionally come free of the filter to re-enter the oil stream. They are usually considered multi-pass filters, which carries the expectation that the same debris will pass through the system multiple times before being intercepted. They will be given "Beta" ratings like "80/25", which tells you that it will stop 80% of all 25 micron particles on the first pass. However, they will rarely publish the fact that they may very well also test at 85/35 or 85/40, and certainly will not mention that they tested at only 95/60 (95% of 60 micron debris).
Additionally, paper filters resist oil flow, particularly when cold, a great deal more than does mesh, and cold starts often cause a paper filter to bypass. In the Scotts filter, a one inch square of the mesh media they use will flow 1.9 gallons of cold 90 weight oil per minute at only 1 psi pump pressure (70 degrees F). The YZ filter contains about 15 sq/in of mesh, which means that the media itself has the ability to flow over 28 GPM of cold 90 weight. The pump at the corner gas station is only about half that fast on a good day, and that figure is actually beyond the capabilities of the engine oil pump in any case. That basically means that unless you run half a shop rag through your engine, the Scotts filter will never bypass under any conceivable circumstance, and will filter at full capacity regardless of temperature. This is often not the case with "paper" filters, which commonly open the bypass valve during warmup operation.
So, it isn't a black and white, indisputable, one's better than the other kind of choice, but in my opinion, the 35 micron stainless mesh is the way to go, and Scotts makes the best example of that type of filter. Let me also point out that there is a huge difference between the medical grade stainless steel mesh used in Scotts filters and the OEM brass screen filters used in YZF's up until '03. The brass filters will filter no finer than 70-80 microns absolute, which is not nearly acceptable, IMO."
So in summery, paper filters will trap smaller particles than a metal mesh ... but they will also pass far larger particles too ... makes you think doesn't it 
Further to this, my concern with 'cheap' paper filters is that presumably the makeup/fibres will be even more irregular ... so yes, in places it might trap 20micron particles, but in other places it might pass say 95micron particles ... the cheaper the 'paper', presumably the greater these places are in number?? so the probability of a >35 micron particle getting through (at least on first pass) is even greater than 'quality' paper filters .... at least the metal filter will NEVER pass more than a 35micron particle ...
____________________
The purpose of life is to fight maturity. |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| ben_wheely |
This post is not being displayed .
|
ben_wheely
Trackday Trickster
Joined: 03 Apr 2008
Karma :
|
Posted: 12:34 - 24 Nov 2009  Post subject: |
|
|
I use HiFlo filters. £2.99 from www.dirtbikexpress.co.uk or you can buy packages of several from ebay - that works out cheaper.
Good filters too
____________________
Rides: '05 Yammy WR290-F |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Kickstart |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Kickstart
The Oracle
Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Blue_SV650S |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Blue_SV650S
World Chat Champion
Joined: 27 Nov 2008
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| silky666 |
This post is not being displayed .
|
silky666
Captain Rulebook
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Karma : 
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Blue_SV650S |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Blue_SV650S
World Chat Champion
Joined: 27 Nov 2008
Karma :
|
| Posted: 14:40 - 24 Nov 2009 Post subject: |
|
|
A very interesting article that raises good points about particle size and engine manufacturing tolerances
Also about the trying to unclog a metal filter that has had particles 'pressed' into the holes at 60psi (oil pressure) .....
Also an enlighting bit of info on Hi-Flo and K&N:-
"I received an email from Suzuki of Victoria, informing me that a Hayabusa they took in for service showed no oil pressure. They found the cause was an aged anti-drainback valve on a Hi-Flo filter that would not open, thus cutting off all oil pressure to the entire engine. K&N filters are made by Hi-Flo, so these filters are also suspect. "
____________________
The purpose of life is to fight maturity. |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Blue_SV650S |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Blue_SV650S
World Chat Champion
Joined: 27 Nov 2008
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Itchy |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Itchy
Super Spammer
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| silky666 |
This post is not being displayed .
|
silky666
Captain Rulebook
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| silky666 |
This post is not being displayed .
|
silky666
Captain Rulebook
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Kickstart |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Kickstart
The Oracle
Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Karma :
|
| Posted: 15:00 - 24 Nov 2009 Post subject: |
|
|
Hi
Does the WR even have an anti drain back valve built into the filter?
I would be very surprised if the anti drain back valve could stick sufficiently well to block 60psi of oil pushing it open. What would sound more plausable is that the flap of the valve has managed to come adrift. Which would be worrying.
That said loads of the filters I have used have been HiFlo brand ones.
All the best
Keith
____________________
Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Blue_SV650S |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Blue_SV650S
World Chat Champion
Joined: 27 Nov 2008
Karma :
|
| Posted: 15:08 - 24 Nov 2009 Post subject: |
|
|
| Itchy wrote: |
is your bike a race bike or something? to use 12 filters on an XT would equate to 72000 miles! |
It is an offorad bike, its not a very nice environment for an engine to be honest. Not only does the engine have to work quite hard at times, but there is such massive changes in engine temperatures*, the oil really does get a workout!!  I intend to change the oil and filter every 300-400 miles.
*going along the road at what 50 mph? then going very slowly through some sand, then dowsing the whole she-bang in a f-off puddle ... or even at times, the engine/oil can never reach a decent working temperature all ride as there is so much perpetual water spray and dowsing going on .. there is also lots of starting/stopping .. waiting etc ... it really is horrible way to treat and engine 
| silky666 wrote: |
I think the key word there is AGED.
The WR is a competition bike and the filter and oil should be changed reguarly (every 3 rides ?) ... and certainly before any part (of what is a pretty basic item) becomes aged etc ... its a cheap and easy thing to do.
I cannot imagine that the race teams would use them, in place of the Yamaha one, if they are suspect. |
Like I said, not sure our filters even have the valves one ...
EDIT: Just looked at the old filter, there IS a spring in there, this is presumably for the relief valve???
Let me do a bit more googling on Hi-Flo to try and establish the manufactures specifications ...
____________________
The purpose of life is to fight maturity. |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| silky666 |
This post is not being displayed .
|
silky666
Captain Rulebook
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Karma :
|
| Posted: 15:21 - 24 Nov 2009 Post subject: |
|
|
A good page on oil filters and answers quite a few questions posted in this thread:
https://www.thumperfaq.com/oil_filter.htm
The site itself is a good one overall .. some nice articles and writeups etc ... everything from carb accelerator pump tuning to valve adjustment.
definitely worth sticking in your faves Blue.
____________________
There's nothing that shouts "Poor Workmanship" more than wrinkles in the Gaffa tape.
Gaffa tape is like "the force" - it has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together. |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Kickstart |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Kickstart
The Oracle
Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| silky666 |
This post is not being displayed .
|
silky666
Captain Rulebook
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Wafer_Thin_Ham |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Wafer_Thin_Ham
Super Spammer
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Karma : 
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
 |
Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 16 years, 67 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
 |
|
|
Help & FAQs
Search BCF
Members
Groups
Events Calendar
(all Hi-Flo, which are the ones he uses on his race bikes etc).
rating
rating