Couple of questions, Battery, exhaust studs, exhaust gaskets

[m0l0t0v]

Righto, as some people may know I bought a dirt cheap Hornet for 475. It's an import and doesn't have a switch to have headlights, sidelights or no lights so the lights are on 24/7 unless I disconnect it... Previous owner always had them disconnected and only rode during daylight as he said it always flattened the battery...

Now earlier it died and refused to start as the battery was drained. Bump started it and all was fine... Till I got into Wycombe and it died as I pulled off (did not stall, not petrol either ) Anyways I had help from a friend who came round with her car and leads (wouldn't normally start a bike like this but no other choice).

Got her started... and then when I went to rev again it died...

So went home in my friends car, and used my spare Hornet battery, which I put to charge until it was on full charge. Went back to the bike and remove everything to notice the battery is different. It's the wrong way round and and it's bigger which I did notice the first time but didn't click...


Now, would the different battery sizes be of much importance? The "dead" battery is at my friends house and I'm picking it up tomorrow and will put it on the charger to see if it's that...

Now, in his quest to find the mysterious tinny sound he remove the exhaust and then the downpipes, and in doing so broke some of the studs... How hard is it gonna be to remove them? I haven't had a proper look yet... It's blowing at the moment so I've bought new studs... Fancy giving me a hand G?

And lastly, exhaust gaskets... What's the difference between ally and copper gaskets? They're the same price.. any differences?

And do I need a gasket from downpipes to link pipe? As I don't think my old Hornet had one and it was fine... as I want to fit the Scorpion exhaust I had



Many thanks!
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'99 Hornet 600 , VFR 400 NC30 '92 , Kasawamasaki GT 550 , '98 Hornet 600
**\Tarmacsurfer/** said: It's that immaculately manly coiffure of yours isn't it. One glimpse of your virile locks and the punters can't wait to buy whatever it is you suggest, as it might let them be just a little bit like the Adonis that is our very own Molly Doovydoo said: Its not my fault I can't get it up properly, I just wasn't blessed

[Dazbo666]

Had some similar issues with my old GPZ...
The continually flattening battery suggests a problem with the charging circuit / stator etc... Does the headlight brighten slightly when you rev the engine??

As for the exhaust/engine studs, some heat, a healthy dose of penetrating oil and stud extractors and/or mole grips may help.
Failing that, I eventually used a Dremel to cut a screwdriver sized slot in the top of the stud and used that as a leverage point.
As a last resort, you may need to cut off and drill out the existing stud(s) and re-tap the hole??
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1st bike (Sept'06 - May'10) : 1991 GPZ500S / Current bike (since Nov 2009) : 2003 Suzuki Bandit 600N
Word of the day : DILLIGAF

[m0l0t0v]

It does yes. With the new (old) battery it does the same, and my previous battery did this too. But it was fine today...


Will have a look when I take the downpipes off then, see what I can do.


Anything on the exhaust gaskets?
____________________
'99 Hornet 600 , VFR 400 NC30 '92 , Kasawamasaki GT 550 , '98 Hornet 600
**\Tarmacsurfer/** said: It's that immaculately manly coiffure of yours isn't it. One glimpse of your virile locks and the punters can't wait to buy whatever it is you suggest, as it might let them be just a little bit like the Adonis that is our very own Molly Doovydoo said: Its not my fault I can't get it up properly, I just wasn't blessed

[DrDonnyBrago]

[Teflon-Mike]

Could be the Honda Rectifier bug-bare.
Similar problem on my CB750, many many reports of similar sorts of faults on VFR750's & CBR's.
BUT.... Not always the £50+ ish regulator. Often IS, but there's a chance.
Now, electronics is like greek-science to me; everything is all made up of the basic elements of earth, wind, fire and water, just in different proportions; where in electronics it's resistors, inductors, capacitors and switches!
But, THIS one I 'sort' of understand, as we had a very similar problem I had to sort out at work many years ago, where the customer kept blowing up test-rigs, and it was for the same reason.
Alternator makes alternating current; battery gives a constant 12v ish, but the alternator makes a voltage that follows a sine wave, going up from 0 to about +15v then back down to 0, and then down to -15v before coming back up to 0 again.
Regulator uses diodes that act as one-way valves to make the -15 v bit + 15v, and then theres some capacitance and inductance used to 'damp' the varying voltage to 15v down to a more steady 12v, like the battery gives....
However, aparently 0 volts in elecronics isn't always 0 volts... which is where it gets confusing.Mut its all to do with the 0v 'reference', and if you measure from the battery neg to anywhere else on the frame, you should get 0v, as they are connected, right?
Well, there's a slight curiocity in that the frame or ground rail has resistance, and if you put a voltage on a load, like a head-lamp, and then use the frame as the return, that gives you a resistor network, and you CAN actually see a small voltage between the battery neg and the 'node' where the headlamp earth is.
Then you get the curiocity that while in a DC circuit 0v is no voltage, in an AC circuit, going between +v and -v, you get 0v in the middle, but that 0v isn't NECESSERILY the same 0v as the ground rail, which can be a small voltage.......
Which was what was blowing up our customers test rigs, becouse aparently they had thier power supply referenced to 0v by attaching it to the earth in the mains cable...... 0v in the test-rig was set at the nominal 0v between the + & = peaks of the AC supply.... and the small difference between the two, was enough to blow up thousands of quids worth of sophisticated test equipment!

OR in the case of Honda's..... thier regulators.
something in the circuitry, aparently needs a 'good' earth between the alternator the remote regulator, and the battery, or any resistance in the return path can fuck up the regulator.

Put that bit in bold, becouse its basically the only bit that I actually 'get', and is of any real use!

Anyhow, sure some-one mer conversant with silicon bits and bridge circuits could explain it better, or point to the flaws in it, but, as I understand it, if the earth isn't great, then the regulator doesn't regulate properly, and of the pulses of volts going in, it fails to turn the negative pulses upside down, so that electric gets lost, and can eventually fry the regulator, while it only pushes out 'some' of the possitive pulses in, so the charge rate is about 1/3 what it should be.....

Result... you dont get the ignition light coming on, like you would if the alternator wasn't working at all, or the regulator completely 'duff'...... bike runs, and provided little load is put on the electrics, runs fine... but turn the lights on...... added load quickly flattens tha battery, as regulator isn't sending it enough juice to keep it topped up.......

and there's something to do with the THREE wires from the alternator, giving AC volts to be regulated In theory they should each be providing +/-15v ish, but with thier peaks out of phase. But again, any resistance in the wires (or more likely the connections) between them and the remote regulator, and the peaks aren't teh same size, and the average 0v they each give is slightly different, and has a similar effect.

CONCLUSION:-
If you have a charging fault on an old Honda:-
a) try cleaning all the contacts on the plugs from the alternator.
b) Try running an extra earth wire between one of the alternator bolts, the regulator body, and the battery neg. (Three ring connectors & a bit of thick wire!)

If the regulator is already 'duff' probably wont fix the problem, but could save the new one. If the regulator isn't duff, MIGHT get the regulator regulating properly again, and sort it.

For a few minutes with the emmery and a little bit of wire, worth a try at least!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[Robby]

Had the exact same problem on my 1997 CBR600, was the reg/rec. I found a cheap chinese one on ebay for 20 quid. Sold the bike so I don't know how it lasted, but at 20 quid its worth the risk if it does a year.

Exhaust studs. Get the manifold off, the you can get the broken studs out with penetrating oil and (locking) mole grips. Don't try using WD-40 and pliers, it won't work. Some heat may help, if you get really stuck then try hammering a small, cheap (and probably imperial, something like 5/16) socket over the end to wind them out. Don't resort to an easy-out, it's easier to drill them if it gets that bad.

I prefer aluminium gaskets, assuming they are the soft aluminium wadding/sandwich type instead of copper rings. The alumium ones go in more easily and don't take as much force to clamp up. If you're heavy handed like me, then using lots of force can strip out the stud threads leading to a world of pain. It's worth using a torque wrench to do up the new exhaust nuts, assuming you are using new nuts on new studs to ensure clean threads.

Do not overtighten on first assembly. Some exhaust gases may leak on the first run. The trick is to warm it up, then leave it to fully cool down, then re-torque the manifold nuts.

Make sure everything is clean. A little emery paper around the exhaust port where the gasket sits, clean gasket mating face on the manifold and head and clean threads makes the job easier. You'll swear if you strip threads.

Oh, lots of tea breaks. This is not a job to get irritated with.

Can you tell I've stripped a few exhaust stud threads in my time?

[m0l0t0v]

I know Honda's in general have a problem with reg/recs. But I've got 2 spares, one I bought which I thought needed replacing, but turns out it was my own fault! So have that new unused one. Then I have one from the old Hornet which I know was working fine. I'll see how it goes with this new battery, as the other battery may just not be holding it's charge anymore If the battery does charge up then I'll look into the alternator/earths and then reg/rec, as there's not point frying the other 2!

What penetrating oil should I use/buy? And yes I'll be buying new studs, though I couldn't find any stainless ones

https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Honda-CB600-CB-Hornet-Alloy-Exhaust-Gaskets-New-x-4-/360186388909?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts#ht_500wt_928

https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EXHAUST-GASKETS-HONDA-CB600-HORNET-set-4-/190324281559?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts#ht_500wt_928

These are coming up, doesn't say aluminium, but "alloy"


May just get copper ones to be sure. My neighbour will have mole grips soi will borrow them, don't know who has a torque wrench though

Thanks
____________________
'99 Hornet 600 , VFR 400 NC30 '92 , Kasawamasaki GT 550 , '98 Hornet 600
**\Tarmacsurfer/** said: It's that immaculately manly coiffure of yours isn't it. One glimpse of your virile locks and the punters can't wait to buy whatever it is you suggest, as it might let them be just a little bit like the Adonis that is our very own Molly Doovydoo said: Its not my fault I can't get it up properly, I just wasn't blessed

[Serendipity]

I’ve tried various penetrating oils, but the one that seems to work best (for me anyway) has been PlusGas. Not many places stock it, but Isaac Lord on Desborough Road sells it. Not cheap though. I think it was about 8 quid for the can I bought.

I’m still tidying up the mess I made after breaking studs on my 1994 CBR600. Pain in the arse!

I have torque wrenches and can either pop round or offer a loan.

Let me know...
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2016 CBF1000F - Commuter heaven | 1994 CBR600FR - Awaiting defibrillation

[m0l0t0v]

You're a star. Will let you know when I get a chance/studs and gaskets come
____________________
'99 Hornet 600 , VFR 400 NC30 '92 , Kasawamasaki GT 550 , '98 Hornet 600
**\Tarmacsurfer/** said: It's that immaculately manly coiffure of yours isn't it. One glimpse of your virile locks and the punters can't wait to buy whatever it is you suggest, as it might let them be just a little bit like the Adonis that is our very own Molly Doovydoo said: Its not my fault I can't get it up properly, I just wasn't blessed

[Robby]

Stainless studs are a poor idea. Stainless and alloy react, causing the alloy to corrode and produce that white alloy cruddy dust.

You want the alloy exhaust gaskets, as in your link.

[Teflon-Mike]

[m0l0t0v]

Good thing I haven't ordered the gaskets then!

Will do so now. And ordering normal studs. Thanks guys
____________________
'99 Hornet 600 , VFR 400 NC30 '92 , Kasawamasaki GT 550 , '98 Hornet 600
**\Tarmacsurfer/** said: It's that immaculately manly coiffure of yours isn't it. One glimpse of your virile locks and the punters can't wait to buy whatever it is you suggest, as it might let them be just a little bit like the Adonis that is our very own Molly Doovydoo said: Its not my fault I can't get it up properly, I just wasn't blessed

[DrDonnyBrago]

[m0l0t0v]

Hmmm fair. Well it's a bit late now.


It'll do.
____________________
'99 Hornet 600 , VFR 400 NC30 '92 , Kasawamasaki GT 550 , '98 Hornet 600
**\Tarmacsurfer/** said: It's that immaculately manly coiffure of yours isn't it. One glimpse of your virile locks and the punters can't wait to buy whatever it is you suggest, as it might let them be just a little bit like the Adonis that is our very own Molly Doovydoo said: Its not my fault I can't get it up properly, I just wasn't blessed

[Robby]