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Another Blade start-up issue

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J0Al1
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PostPosted: 14:33 - 07 Feb 2011    Post subject: Another Blade start-up issue Reply with quote
A couple of weeks ago my 2000 Blade (929) had red F1 waring lights flashing on dash (9 times). This was rectified and has gone now Smile

BUT, since about the same time this happened my bike seems to be a little wierd wen you first fire it up from cold.

It starts fine, but soon it revs really realy high like it is choking itself out... This lasts about 30/40 secs then it rectifies itself.

Never used to happen, dont think it happens from warm.

Any ideas its definatly not right Sad
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J0Al1
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PostPosted: 14:43 - 07 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Am I right to guess it might have been something that was done by accident when repairing the other fault?
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DrDonnyBrago
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PostPosted: 14:48 - 07 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm not familiar with blades, but it sounds like part of the warm up procedure of the bike. My 2001 CBR600f fast idles (about 3-3.5krpm) for a minute or so until it has warmed up and settles back down to a normal idle speed.

There is a wax idle unit on my bike, as the bike gets up to temp, the wax melts and the idle speed drops, sound like yours has something similar. How long have you owned it? Guessing by the F1 "FI" light that it is fuel injected rather than carb'd and doesn't have a manual fast idle lever Wink .
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J0Al1
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PostPosted: 15:04 - 07 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Thanks for the reply....

I have owned it since Sept, rode it twice (no issues), SORN it until a few weeks back. Serviced it and noticed these 'things' that wern't apparent before. However it was not as cold when I rode it back in Sept.

I know nothing about wax or warm up proceedures :/

I wil have to take a look at the revometer but it sounds insainly high not just 3-3.5krpm....
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DrDonnyBrago
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PostPosted: 15:32 - 07 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Fuel delivery is via the latest generation PGM-FI programmed injection system and is very nearly faultless. There is no choke - instead it has a thermo/mechanical device that takes care of it for you. A wax pellet device with a coolant circuit controls four plungers. This device responds to coolant temperature by opening and closing the fast idle plungers. The system works very well indeed. Just thumb the starter in the morning and she fires up instantaneously to a little over 2000 rpm which, as the engine warms, slowly drops down to idle around 1200 rpm. It is the little things like this that make everyday life with the new CBR 929 an enjoyable experience.

From: https://www.mcnews.com.au/testing/hondacbr929firebladetest.htm


From a review of your bike; seems your bike does have a similar wax idle system to mine however you should have a look at the rev counter when it does the high revving thing to see how high it actually goes.

If it is really high (i.e. over 4k) then it might have a fault.
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J0Al1
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PostPosted: 15:59 - 07 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice one DonnyBrago. I shall have a look at this later.
Gradually I am learning more about bikes Smile

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rob c
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PostPosted: 16:06 - 07 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
My ZX9 does it on choke, the warmer it gets the more it revs i just turn the choke down to compensate.
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gixer750 ps
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PostPosted: 20:22 - 07 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
my bike has manual choke too, but on her blade it auto choke so no turning down , it does rev scarily high tho, i dont think its normal for a bike to do that, but i have no idea about blades,
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Blackwolf
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PostPosted: 20:34 - 07 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
When you say rev high, how high E?
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Barry_M2
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PostPosted: 10:44 - 08 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jo,

If you & Paul are out and about on your bikes at the weekend, pop over to mine and I'll take a quick look over it if you like?

I'll be clearing out the garage & shed getting ready for the move so I'll be around all weekend.

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J0Al1
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PostPosted: 10:51 - 08 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Blackwolf wrote:
When you say rev high, how high E?


I will look when I remember too (get the time).
I'll def get the chance on Thursday Smile
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J0Al1
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PostPosted: 10:53 - 08 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Barry_M2 wrote:
Jo,

If you & Paul are out and about on your bikes at the weekend, pop over to mine and I'll take a quick look over it if you like?


Thanks Barry, that's really kind Smile. I 'doubt' I out unless we have a super windy day Rolling Eyes
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J0Al1
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PostPosted: 16:27 - 08 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
4000 rpm
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J0Al1
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PostPosted: 16:28 - 08 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
PS: Blackwolf you look gorgeous in that dress Laughing
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DrDonnyBrago
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PostPosted: 16:54 - 08 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
MissE wrote:
4000 rpm


Seems a bit higher than you might expect it to cold idle at, mine is a 600 and only idles at 3-3.5k.

Check this, seems the wax idle unit IS adjustable; about half way down a long post by a guy named DaveM

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/54200-02-rough-low-idle-on-cold-start/

Quote:
I had spare time last night so I dug in to find out how the WAX unit and Idle control works. I really wish the manual had functional descriptions of these systems - it would make troubleshooting much easier.

The WAX unit is a small linear actuator located between the throttle bodies. It is thermally operated and is heated by engine coolant passing through two fittings on it's base. When cold, less than about 100 degrees F, it is fully retracted. As the coolant warms, starting at about 130 degrees, the shaft extends, reaching full extension at about 160 degrees. Is the WAX unit full of wax as is often stated? I have no idea. The actual internal mechanism could be hydraulic (wax, oil or other fluid that would expand when heated) or possibly thermal/mechanical - like a spring that extends when heated. Either way, it doesn't matter much since it's not serviceable. Built into the WAX unit housing is the boss for the Idle Speed Adjustment screw. The Idle speed adjustment screw and the shaft of the shaft of the WAX actuator both interact with the starter valve plate to control idle speed as follows.

Warm engine idle is set with the Idle adjusting screw. This screw, operated by the cable and knob just above the clutch housing, pushes against the starter valve plate and sets a minimum depth for the starter valves. Turn the knob clockwise, the idle screw pushes the starter valve plate pulling the starter valves farther out thus increasing idle speed. Turn the knob counter clockwise and the starter valves retract into the throttle bodies lowering idle speed. When the engine is warm, and providing the WAX unit is working correctly, the WAX shaft is extended and the nut on the shaft does not contact the starter valve plate plate - no effect on idle speed. By my observation, when warm, the nut on the end of the WAX unit shaft should extend about 5 - 7mm beyond it's starter plate bearing - a round piece of black plastic that hooks into the starter valve plate - see the bad hand sketches below.

When the engine is cold, the shaft of the WAX unit is fully retracted, and the nut on the shaft is contacting it's bearing on the starter valve plate. In this position the starter valve plate should be pulled back such that it is not contacting the idle screw causing the starter valves to be slightly further out than the warm idle position. This is what sets cold start fast idle. This can be adjusted by turning the nut on the end of the WAX unit shaft.
When I inspected my bike last night I found that the WAX unit was not pulling the starter valve plate off of the idle stop screw. In fact, the WAX shaft nut may not have been contacting the bearing at all - difficult to tell. Also not sure if this is the result of the WAX unit nut loosening over time, some change in the WAX unit's stroke due to wear, or that to maintain a 1400 rpm idle I've had to turn the idle screw in a little further to compensate for engine wear/tune. In any event, I had no fast idle. To correct the problem I turned the WAX shaft nut in one full turn. This pulled the starter valve plate off of the idle stop screw about 1mm. By the way, this nut is one of those marked with white paint, and according to the manual should never be adjusted. Proceed at your own risk. This morning when I started the bike the Idle rose to about 1700rpm and by the first stop sign the engine temp was at 165 and the idle was back down to 1400.

I do have one final concern based on checksix's comments - The temp in my shop last night was about 75deg, and based on my observation of no shaft movement until the engine temp was about 130, I am assuming the shaft was fully retracted. However, if additional retraction can occour at cold temperatures, I'll be watching for abnormally high idle speeds this fall.

Sorry for the long post, but it really bugs me when I don't understand exactly how something works.

Sorry for the bad hand drawing

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/uploads/1251421132/gallery_3721_1985_23497.jpg
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Blackwolf
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PostPosted: 22:24 - 08 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sounds like it could be off a little.

But by my dads Blade its about the same.

The revs seem fine, its just the lenght of how long it says at 4k for.

Does it do it all the time or just from cold?

Its a nice dress, cots a bit though...
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Billing
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PostPosted: 23:30 - 08 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
4k is a little high by the sound of things, but saying that both my 400's will pull 4-5k on full choke if it's cold Confused could be that they do that because they rev so high Question
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Barry_M2
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PostPosted: 09:23 - 09 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
No bike needs to hit 4k rpm on choke, no matter how cold.

Idle for most bikes is usually around or just over 1k rpm when warm. 2k rpm is plenty to keep the motor spinning when starting from cold, and even then it shouldn't need it for more than a minute, two at most!

Jo, find out also where it idle's when it up to full temp.
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Blackwolf
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PostPosted: 12:50 - 09 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
4K is like at max. but not uncommon, my cbr6 and my dads blade when it was very cold touched 4k when starting but instantly dropped.


Guess the next thing to do as what others have mentioned is check the Wax idle unit.
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J0Al1
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PostPosted: 13:10 - 09 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
OK thanks for all the replies... Thumbs Up

So.....
I need to see how long it does the high revvs for (I might have over estimates at 30-40 secs).
Then see what revs it iddls at once settled.

Pretty certain it only does this from cold start.
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J0Al1
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PostPosted: 13:40 - 11 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
It was fine today...

Ticked about 2k when I started it up, but it's much milder.

Still seems odd that it did that :/
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J0Al1
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PostPosted: 16:06 - 11 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
CHR15 wrote:
maybe it was just having a bad day.


Hummm It did it for a couple of weeks (in the cold)
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J0Al1
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PostPosted: 21:06 - 11 Feb 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote
CHR15 wrote:

as a totally random thing, have you checked your coolant level?



That was on V low, i topped it to max a month or so ago.

Ill take the above advice and look at the wax thing at some stage when by busy hectic life allows me too.

Thanks for all the info guys Thumbs Up Appreciated Very Happy
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