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60-0mph how important ??

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BIKEVIDDER
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PostPosted: 09:08 - 11 Nov 2011    Post subject: 60-0mph how important ?? Reply with quote

Following my 0-60mph post I'm just wondering about bikes performance.
Many discover economy over time & performance is "tested" not long after a bike is bought.
How many go to a quiet road & thrash the brakes to see how well they work.
If I commute at 25mph & a cage pulls out my brakes will stop me.
If I legal limit tootle down a main road & the car in front slams It's brakes on for a reason I can't see my brakes will stop me ploughing into the back.
Honest theory for many ??
Do you check brakes to the limit or assume your guardian angel is riding pillion.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 09:16 - 11 Nov 2011    Post subject: Re: 60-0mph how important ?? Reply with quote

BIKEVIDDER wrote:

If I legal limit tootle down a main road & the car in front slams It's brakes on for a reason I can't see my brakes will stop me ploughing into the back.


That's confusing as hell. So do you think your brakes will stop you or not? Punctuation's underrated. Razz

And the same as with 0-60, on lots of bikes after a certain point your braking power is governed by the bike's tendency to stoppie, or lock the front rather than outright power.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:18 - 11 Nov 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Knowing your ultimate braking performance is handy for track racing, sure.

But on the public roads, braking distance is largely down to the instant road conditions - surface, temperature, oil, water, ice, gravel, leaves, kittens - so any information that you got from your stoppies is largely moot.

Under normal riding, you'll slow down fairly gently. In an emergency, you'll haul on the brakes and either stop or not. In neither situation are you likely to say "Well, I think I can stop in X yards under full braking, so I'll delay braking until I'm X away from the hazard".

Of course, that doesn't apply to hoons using the public road as a racetrack, but then again I don't really mind if they end up inserted in a tree as a consequence of misjudging the braking point. Razz
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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 10:44 - 11 Nov 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Knowing your ultimate braking performance is handy for track racing, sure.

But on the public roads, braking distance is largely down to the instant road conditions - surface, temperature, oil, water, ice, gravel, leaves, kittens - so any information that you got from your stoppies is largely moot.

He said stoppie or lock. A good tyre will still stoppie in most dry conditions, so it is rather relevant.

Most standard bikes with decent brakes and decent tyres should be able to stop at around 1g; so 60-0 in 3 seconds.

As for track racing; sadly there isn't some magic anti-slippery-surface coating on tracks, so they also suffer from all the same things roads do and you need to be aware of those.

Of course if you've got tyres that don't offer good grip on the roads, you're going to be having to pay even more attention.

I tend to use a wheelie to test grip, what with not crashing if it slides, which is a tad more likely to happen with harsh braking.

I will also tend to do a few low stoppies on a new bike - this way I'm also in tune with the braking force needed to get maximum braking.
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BIKEVIDDER
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PostPosted: 13:27 - 11 Nov 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:

I will also tend to do a few low stoppies on a new bike - this way I'm also in tune with the braking force needed to get maximum braking.

Sensible way to ride & own a bike.
I suspect a lot of riders know nothing about reaction time or stopping distance.
Crazy question to ask ?? I'd say It needs to be answered before a loon pulls out regardless of what you ride or how you ride.
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Acemastr
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PostPosted: 13:43 - 11 Nov 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
Knowing your ultimate braking performance is handy for track racing, sure.

But on the public roads, braking distance is largely down to the instant road conditions - surface, temperature, oil, water, ice, gravel, leaves, kittens - so any information that you got from your stoppies is largely moot.

He said stoppie or lock. A good tyre will still stoppie in most dry conditions, so it is rather relevant.

Most standard bikes with decent brakes and decent tyres should be able to stop at around 1g; so 60-0 in 3 seconds.

As for track racing; sadly there isn't some magic anti-slippery-surface coating on tracks, so they also suffer from all the same things roads do and you need to be aware of those.

Of course if you've got tyres that don't offer good grip on the roads, you're going to be having to pay even more attention.

I tend to use a wheelie to test grip, what with not crashing if it slides, which is a tad more likely to happen with harsh braking.

I will also tend to do a few low stoppies on a new bike - this way I'm also in tune with the braking force needed to get maximum braking.


You say this, I am quite hard on my brakes(front tyre has less tread than the rear Very Happy) and i've never managed a stoppie, I'm on a set of pilot road 2's, and although they are beautifully grippy, i can't trust them enough to really pull the brake enough to make it stoppie, i've never done one and simply can't see how people do it!
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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 14:14 - 11 Nov 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Acemastr wrote:

You say this, I am quite hard on my brakes(front tyre has less tread than the rear Very Happy) and i've never managed a stoppie, I'm on a set of pilot road 2's, and although they are beautifully grippy, i can't trust them enough to really pull the brake enough to make it stoppie, i've never done one and simply can't see how people do it!

Doesn't sound like you're THAT hard on the brakes then Wink.

In good conditions with progressive application a decent tyre should be fine to grip - in fact even with harsh application a decent tyre should be fine in good conditions. But then I've had bad experiences with Michelins (race) myself and this isn't the ideal time of year.
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banditjohn
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PostPosted: 14:32 - 11 Nov 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've found it best to ride defensively and yes I know you still get them Laughing , but if you ride like that and within your limits your not asking for trouble. I take every driver as an idiot and there going to do the last thing you could possibly think of, and your be as safe as the next tw@t that pulls out on you Embarassed .
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 14:43 - 11 Nov 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

BIKEVIDDER wrote:

I suspect a lot of riders know nothing about reaction time or stopping distance.


One point on this is how stopping distances are measured. We get rather hung up on knowing that the stopping distance from X mph is Y meters yet I suspect that a very large number of people would fail to give a vaguely accurate figure for the distance something is away.

All the best

Keith
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:34 - 11 Nov 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
He said stoppie or lock.


Ham said that, I was replying to the OP though.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I do actually agree that it's a very smart and sensible idea to practice braking, it's just that I'd question the extent.

Yes, you should always test the brakes on a new bike, after tyre and brake changes, and give a good haul shortly after setting off on each journey.

But given the many factors that effect braking - as above, plus deterioration in pads, discs, tyres, hoses and fluid - I think that investing significant ongoing time into exploring specific limits and behaviour so that you're primed to react optimally is something best left to serious track or road racers.

For the rest of us, harsh braking is and should be a very rare occurrence and time spent screeching around an industrial estate has to come from somewhere. I can't think of anything I'd give up in order to do it.
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G
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PostPosted: 15:43 - 11 Nov 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I was going on about racers having the same thing, the majority of the time in dry conditions, it's purely a case of braking as hard as needed. Wet conditions are a mystic science that at club level at least very few are that competent at (based on me not being that amazing and at least on the SV not doing worse than normal in wet races Smile.)

Getting used to what brake is achievable in good conditions doesn't take long at all and is very easy. Keep braking harder each time until you find the rear is no longer in contract with the ground Smile.
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lihp
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PostPosted: 16:58 - 11 Nov 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

I regularly try my brakes once per week, and do an emergency stop from 60mph.

I get on a quiet country road, and when it's quiet, I'll try it. It's not something you get to do all the time, and it's not something that is practice even on the test.

So I do it, as it may one day save you
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BIKEVIDDER
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PostPosted: 17:24 - 11 Nov 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Each distance is unique to each bike & rider combination.
Three true stories to make you cringe.
Years ago commuting 30 miles on an old MZ with OK brakes I had a near miss.
The front brake didn't work from cold so for a few yards I always rode with slight pressure on the lever, after that It was fine as far as MZ brakes go.
One cold morning I didn't, riding defensively I didn't use the brakes untill the last island with a lorry fast approaching from the right on the island. With the back wheel locked I mounted the islands kerb & stopped in the middle, to say I brown stained my pants is an understatement.
Second one was an article in a bike mag by one of the writers.
He left home on a sports bike, didn't touch the brakes untill it was a urgent, a plastic carrier bag was wrapped around the front disc rendering the brake useless, like myself no harm done.
The third is my first no brakes incident.
To save a long story I'll just say a lorry appeared in front of me & I hit the front nearside wheel resulting in a broken bike & not so broken but still painful body.
Yes I was scanning for danger in heavy traffic & that was the problem the lorry pulled out from the right behind another vehicle & the driver didn't know if the road was clear or not.
Reaction time was getting as far as thinking SH by then too late to finnish the word off.
I've often heard people boast of performance speed wise & only know the brakes performance by rocking the bike while stationary.
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G
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PostPosted: 17:30 - 11 Nov 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

BIKEVIDDER wrote:
Each distance is unique to each bike & rider combination.

But given a few decent recent 'ok' bikes and similar reasonably competent riders, I'd expect pretty similar results.

Something like an old MZ with questionable tyres is of course going to be a bit different.
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Dazbo666
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PostPosted: 19:13 - 11 Nov 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

When riding solo on a quiet road I occasionally "test" the brakes to have an idea of what they're capable of, and thankfully they're able to stop the bike significantly quicker than I normally would 99% of the time.

Obviously it's that other 1% that can make all the difference, but 20+ years of road experience and a healthy sense of self preservation means that the brakes are very rarely used to their full capability.
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The Shaggy D.A.
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PostPosted: 19:22 - 11 Nov 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dazbo666 wrote:
Obviously it's that other 1% that can make all the difference, but 20+ years of road experience and a healthy sense of self preservation means that the brakes are very rarely used to their full capability.


This. I pretty much ride whilst pretending I don't have brakes.
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crackfinder
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PostPosted: 19:25 - 11 Nov 2011    Post subject: Re: 60-0mph how important ?? Reply with quote

BIKEVIDDER wrote:


If I commute at 25mph & a cage pulls out my brakes will stop me.

If I legal limit tootle down a main road & the car in front slams It's brakes on for a reason I can't see my brakes will stop me ploughing into the back.


By all means "get a feel" for your brakes......but the best thing to rely on is observation, riding to the conditions and awareness of what is and what can happen around you,

So.......

"If I commute at 25mph & a cage pulls out my brakes will stop me?"

IF you are riding to the conditions of the road, and have "observed" the cage approaching the junction's speed, decided in your mind if they are likely to stop, "observed" him/her for eye contact, started to slow your own speed if you are unsure, "observed" an escape route if you need it....
then Yes your brakes should do their job and help you avoid the cage,
but as you can see from this post there are a lot of things you can put into place that will assist you in your braking....


and...

"If I legal limit tootle down a main road & the car in front slams It's brakes on for a reason I can't see my brakes will stop me ploughing into the back?"

If you do "plough into the back" you were either..

a) riding too close for the conditions.

b) not paying attention i.e. bad obs.

c) going too fast for the conditions.

it is bad practice to wait until the car in front brakes before you start braking, why rely on how good your brakes are when there are so many other things you can do....
anchoring on and hoping for the best is definitely a last resort in my book...
that's not to say it doesn't happen....but you can definitely have an influence on it just with good obs.
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crackfinder
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PostPosted: 19:28 - 11 Nov 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Shaggy D.A. wrote:

I pretty much ride whilst pretending I don't have brakes.


this Rolling Eyes

I changed my brake fluid the other month and took the bike for a test ride.....
I was really surprised how little i actually used the brakes, I had to deliberately go down the congested high street and consciously use the brakes Thumbs Up
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